"You match the description of two burglers..." As reason to request a consent search.

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artherd

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Maybe some of our fine LE officers present can help me answer this question:

How many times is the oft-heard "you match the description of two suspects recently .........." pretense to ask "If I can just search your vehicle real quick please?"

Ie, how often are the LEOs lieing (as the courts have ruled they infact can do!) to gain consent?

I'm simply currious, because I have been told the above, and never once belived them (basically because I could overhear the radio, and observed absolutely NO chatter about the alleged 'incident' the perportrators thereof who's description we allegedly matched?


Of course, I never consent to having my rights trampled. If they had PC, I would not be asked anyway.
 
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No way! If they have such a description, that's lovely for them: but it's not probable cause to suspect me of being that person unless the incident happened a short distance away, a short time ago, and I'm heading away from that area. Under those circumstances, I'd understand their suspicions. Otherwise, forget it!
 
I've done it. Report of a robbery just occurred. Car matching the description of the suspect's car passes by a few minutes later. I explain the situation to the driver. Ask for permission for a quick search. He agrees. Nothing found to suggest a crime. I thank him for his cooperation. He goes on his way. No more than five minutes is spent establishing he is not the one we are looking for. I never made up a story just to look in a guy's car.

An officer who uses a make believe story of a robbery or burglary just occurred to stop and search is asking for big trouble. Eventually it will become revealed that the public's trust means nothing to him. The Chief or Sheriff doesn't need this sort of headache and will put a stop to it.

Pilgrim
 
Just tell them no, You do have the right to tell them no or they wouldnt ask, However then they think they have a reason to search your vehicle :rolleyes: like you have something to hide.... its called having some privacy in your life... ive been asked by cops if they can search my vehicle, I told them no. They asked why, I said because its my vehicle and not yours. A few minutes later I was on my way.
 
An officer who uses a make believe story of a robbery or burglary just occurred to stop and search is asking for big trouble. Eventually it will become revealed that the public's trust means nothing to him. The Chief or Sheriff doesn't need this sort of headache and will put a stop to it.
Click to expand...

Thing that gets me is, how would the lie ever feasibly be discovered if it wasn't really material to the PC for the search? All it did was lead to consent, that is where the issue pivots.

I agree it's rather reprehensible (though I can also see how lieing is useful in a police officer's job as well.)
 
If lots of people in a small area got pulled over with similar stories, the word would get around quickly. While I am sure there are areas where this happens and LEOs who try the tactic, any widespread use is bound to lead to people talking and/or making phone calls to the station.
 
If you don't have a warrant you don't come on my property or in my car. I also don't hand over ID at checkpoints anymore. I have an expensive attorney to make your life hell if you give me flack about these things.

That's the point I've gradually arrived at over the years. Having been on both sides of the issue it seems by far the most prudent course. As for whther I might actually resemble some thug? I know I din't do it and that needs to be good enough. If not, get a judge...
 
Ie, how often are the LEOs lieing (as the courts have ruled they infact can do!) to gain consent?
Click to expand...

Around here, lying about that sort of thing will net you a Come To Jesus meeting with the Patrol Captain the first time you pull it. Second time gets you bounced into unemployment.

We don't have time for that kind of BS.

And if he doesn't?
Click to expand...

Run a 28/29 on the car license, run a 27 on the DL, fill out a Field Interview Card, then wish the driver a safe trip.

LawDog
 
Happened to me and my brother once, very long ago. The situation met Preacherman's requirements. Major felony stop procedures for armed robbery suspects. :eek: Our bad luck to be in the 'wrong' kind of car with the 'right' number of occupants. After some discussion, we got an apology, an explanation, and thanks for our cooperation. :D :cool: We were still in high school at the time, picking up our mother from work. Exciting, but understandable.

I'm not saying that improper stuff didn't, and doesn't, occur, but Lawdog is right. Most places, you pull stunts like this just as a pretext for a search (read 'fishing expedition') and you'll be looking for work.
 
Perhaps we should just disband the police....

artherd,
I don't believe a search that used a ruse like that to gain consent would be legal in most jurisdicitions. The courts have always held that a consensual search during a traffic stop couldn't be coerced. Consent to search is always supposed to be asked for after any enforcement action (citation, warning etc.) that was the reason for the stop is completed and it's clear to the subject that he/she is free to go. You might wish to ask El Tejon or some of the other lawyers here about this, but where I work, I have no doubt that if an officer lied like that to a subject as an excuse to randomly root through your car on a fishing expedition, any evidence he found would be easily suppressed and the officer would be in trouble.

It's one thing to lie to a suspect with "I've got your fingerprints off the rock you threw through the car window to get in and steal that purse." or "Your buddy is in the other room telling my partner the entire story, why don't you fess up now, and I can talk to the states attorney about how cooperative you've been." It's another thing altogether to make up a story about a robbery to coerce someone into letting you search them.

If you think about it for a few minutes, you might actually come up with a reason that you didn't hear any chatter about an armed robbery while the officer was in contact with you.....

Perhaps we should disband all the police agencies in the country and go back to letting everyone work things out for themselves. The life some of you must lead worried every single minute that your own employees are going to break down your door at O-dark 30 and kill you and your family because a CI gave the police your address by mistake, or afraid to leave your house because your employees are going to make up a reason to detain you while you innocently go about your lawful business and plant evidence in your car so they can lie to you in an attempt to get you to consent to search so they can make an arrest and get the statistics up..... :uhoh: How do you even get out of bed in the morning knowing you live in such an oppressive , freedom stifling world?? :confused:

You know in real life most people in our country have almost no contact with the police unless they are the victim of a crime, commit a traffic offense or are unfortunate enough to be involved in a traffic accident. Sometimes the paranoia I see here really amazes me.

Jeff
 
I'm another who wonders at the seeming paranoia. Here I am, over 70 and the "grandest encounter" with The Forces of Righteousness was a stop for 120 in a 55. The officer asked why I was going so fast, and sorta choked when I told him I had just washed my car and was drying it...This led to about 20 minutes of BS about cars, speed limits, deer hunting and other such important subjects.

I've probably gotten 20 or so tickets in my whole life. Never any rudeness; never any query about a search.

I go through Border Patrol check stations probably a half-dozen times a month. Never a hassle.

Had one search by US Customs, at Presidio. Rather enjoyable, really; reminiscent of Mack Sennett and the Keystone Cops. The weather had been rather rainy, and the guy scooting around under the 4Runner on his creeper found a lot of mud. Such language, and from a public servant! I was shocked, I tell you; shocked! And he didn't know what a coyote call was, either, so I did my duty and explained that grand and noble sport...

:), Art
 
And if he doesn't?
Click to expand...

Depends on the circumstances. I would have been asking the officer at the crime scene for more information about the robber. If more and more information points to the person I am detaining, I may have probable cause to search without his consent. If the additional information points somewhere else, I thank the driver for his time and cooperation and send him on his way.

Pilgrim
 
A young client of mine had an interesting encounter with the Milwaukee PD a few years ago.

He's in his twenties and looks Latino, although he's Italian. He had just returned home from a graphic design school in Florida, and was escorting his friends around town in his tricked-out BMW.

He was pulled over by multiple squads, officers behind squad doors with weapons drawn. All occupants were told to leave the vehicle, hands on heads, etc.

After lengthy questioning, my client was told that his vehicle matched the description of one involved in a drive-by shooting. The officer in charge let him go when he learned that the real bad guys had taken return fire, and that there were bullet holes in the real bad guys' car.

The officer apologized profusely, and suggested my client keep his Beemer in the garage for the evening while the search for the Beemer in question progressed.
 
2 events, FWIW:

1) An old buddy of mine told me about a time that he was driving through some little town (maybe Durango or Cortez, CO? - don't remember) late one night when the cops pulled him over, dragged him out of his pickup, cuffed him, and stuck him in the back of a cruiser. I don't know if they searched his pickup or not - it would have been quite an experience for them cause it was always full of stuff (greasy tools, extra clothes, etc), both the bed and cab. Apparently there had been a robbery and his pickup matched the getaway description. Anyway, after a little while they let him go ... apparently the BG was a black or mexican and not a white male :rolleyes: :eek:

2) One time (middle of winter in AK) I went up to some folks' cabin after breaking up with a girl. They had told me I could use it, but I hadn't specifically asked for permission ... just had to get away Right Now ;) . I parked on the hiway and hiked in about 1/4 mile through a couple feet of snow. A little while later I see an armed man running through the snow outside :what: They finally identified themselves as troopers to my great relief and I gladly walked outside then to face a shotgun and drawn pistol. Both of them immediately relaxed - said they saw my pickup and were "just checking things out" - yeah, right ... :rolleyes:

I asked them if they were looking for someone - "oh, no - just checking ..."
:p obviously they were and knew the instant they saw me that I was not that person. We chatted for while, and as they turned to leave said "oh, I suppose we should look at your ID" :D

This was back in the "good ole days" BTW ;)
 
I wouldn't consent to a search without a request in writing that included the officer's badge number. He'd know in advance I planned to follow up with his supervisor in the event he didn't find anything in my vehicle that had been stolen.
 
Thing that gets me is, how would the lie ever feasibly be discovered if it wasn't really material to the PC for the search? All it did was lead to consent, that is where the issue pivots.
Click to expand...
If it wasn't material to the PC (if PC even existed) what would be the point of telling the lie? In fact, if PC existed, then what grounds would you have for objecting to the search no matter what you were told at the time?

I'm assuming that we're using "PC" to mean "probable cause," here, right?
:scrutiny:

Sounds like what you have here is a very serious worry searching for a very legitimate cause for worry.
 
True, most people will never have a problematic encounter with police in their entire life - despite the flurry of laws designed to make sure someone is guilty of something most of the time.

The paranoia isn't "they're out to get me".
The paranoia is "they can reaaaaly screw up my life if they do come to get me".

Statistics mean nothing when "it" happens to YOU.

NY State very nearly took away my driver's license recently because of a normal speeding ticket in another country.Pardon my subsequent paranoia.
 
"You match the description of two burglers..."

I wouldn't be able to resist responding => Do I look like two burglers?

Seriously, years ago a guy in uniform knocked on my front door after dark and tried to serve me with some kind of paper. I wouldn't take it and told him he had the wrong guy and that I'd never heard of the guy he was looking for. He wanted to come in. Ha, good one officer. I stepped out on the porch and locked the door behind me (a friend had a similar mistaken address thing happen and they took him away and left his front door wide open all night.)

I finally got a look at the address on the paper. It was for South xxx and I live on North xxx. I told him not to bother going by there because that block is a city tennis court. :) I never did show him any ID.

John
 
nah, trapshooter, I sorta dropped out of the street-monster game. There ARE moments I'm sore tempted to get back into the days of "parked with intent to speed". There's so much stuff now that's shop-made, whereas in the old daze I had to do my own fabrication. Motor- and transmission mounts, suspension pieces...

Most of the time, the only searching the cops did was under the hood to see what I'd done, followed by, "What'll she turn in the Quarter?" Sometimes it's nice to be known to Dudley DoRight. :D

I guess I've gotten a lot of slack from a grin and, "Hey, howya doin'?" It's worked everywhere from the Marseilles waterfront to Texas' DPS.

:), Art
 
I guess this makes it OK, right? LEO's will laugh.

GUYS this is worth the read, if only for a laugh but it is not that funny to me.

so i am in a park in SF, with a bunch of hippies. yeah i was one of them so what. so i decide to walk over to the pay phone to call my parents.
as i am walking, one unmarked, one marked car rails their way across grass, about ten yards awy from me. since i was the one moving at them time , it was
"where are you going?" "CLICK CLICK" gee thanks, cuffs. "you got any sharps?"
geez. i had about 50 dollars and a phone card.
"we got a description of a guy with a knife just robbed a lady looks like you, long hair, tye dye" (there are about THIRTY such folks within 20 feet of us)
"by the way, you got any drugs for us, and good dope?"
sorry, no.
"oh ok you're not the guy, see you later" cuffs come off. gee thanks.

NOw ******** this one, i asked for it a little=

i am visiting NY , i take a walk to town in suburban LI NY.
i wlak thru town , pass police etc, get an ICE CREAM CONE. oh BOY ! i am up to something now!
start to walk home. just outside of twon walking towards home, police car pulls up.
"Hay can I ask you something? "
oh boy, well here i pushed it a little as i had been being watched all thru town
already, and hadnt done anythng but look weird/
so i got a lOT of hair. i got sick of pulling it all out with a brush. So WHAT. I have dreads. I THOUGHT this WAS AMERICA??

anyway= "hey can i ask you something"
me= "well, ask, i dont know you're gonna make me tell you whatever and i am just trying to walk down the street, i dont know why you arte stoppnig me??"

NOW= sure, i was rude. but what in the heck makes a LE think any citizen wants him to drive up , spin around, stop me, to "ask me a friendly question?"

you're an LEO . you stopped me. get to the point.

so now of course i have made him mad, who am i what am i doing here, suddenly there are EIGHT officers, four cars, some of them angry ,some realizing they are in the middle of a lame LEO's ego trip, and NONE of them no what to do with me.

"how can you be from here if you have a CA license? "
me= "i just said i was here visiting my parents" they had a REal hard time believing me, even though i could give them address right off, i mean it was a joke. i ahd my cell, i said let me connect you to my parents.

so then they figured it out! Oh knives, everyone looves knives.
SUDDenly a woman has reported being robbed, at knifepoint, and some "things" were taken.
"can you tell me what things? do i have them on me? what the heck?"

=GET IN THE CAR!

ok great.
the cop= "ok, you sit. in a few minutes , a witness is gonna drive by , they are not going to id you, then you can go."
me= "uh, can you at least tell me what i took? "
one "good " cop is even trying to play along "shouldnt we see what he has?"
of course i had a thin jacket only.
cop="LIsten. you busted my chops, now i bust yours. the witness will drive by, they will not id you, you will be let go then."

and during the few minutes i was outside , with all these cops trying to think of how bad i must be, you could see about half of thme knew this was a joke, and didnt even want to be a part of it really, but the other half, the old timers, they enjoyed the heck out of it. they knew i was mad, and this was totally bogus.
(ps , they never did look in my pocket)
THE KICKER= my dad drove by and saw all the cops , right after i was let go, he passed me walking. IF ONLY he has shown up when they still had me.
he's a very good citizen, and VERY good at getting angry.

So maybe i asked for him to get angry, but does a citizen not enjoying being harrassed by the police really warrant wasting 20 minutes of an entire towns force, berateing me, cuffing me, and THEN= NEVER even asked whatever he originally wanted to know.
he wanted to ask me something dunb about my hair and see if i spooked.
sure i spooked, but not the way he wanted me to.

LESSON= would i EVER think that
"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,."

means that we have the police to act as our state militia????????
(essentially the argumant for gun control, that the police ARE the state militia)

heh. yeah think about it, i think you get it .

DISCLAIMER= before nine million LEOs come gun me down , well if you truly are serving and protecting me, i have great respect for you. I dont like to think what it would be like without police, and REally i just wish these LEO's jerking me around for looking funny would start removing drunks and non signaling MFers from the road. if there is so little crime they have all this time to harrass me, yet "EVERy car on the road has something wrong with it"
well, add it up!

oh boy please dont shoot me. heheh
 
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