Your opinion on this gun law?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm talking about your responsibility as a gun owner, or as any property owner, to take every reasonable precaution to protect that property, especially when its misuse can kill.

"Reasonable" is a piece of content-free semantics. If someone decides a home alarm system is required for "reasonable," what happens to the person who can't afford one or the renter whose landlord says nuh-uh?

Second, if they can require "reasonable" security provisions, they can also enter your premises and inspect to make sure they're in place. As is about to happen in Canada.

It's also back-door registration, because when they enter to inspect your security arrangements, they'll see what you have.

Property rights? Never heard of 'em.

If on the other hand, we as gun owners step up to the plate and prove that *lawful* gun owners don't need more regulation, the people in government will start looking at ways to control *illegal* gun users.

Proof, burden of, one each. People in government are already looking at ways to control legal gun users. Conceding ground just moves the starting line for the next round.

Sorry, Liko, you haven't come close to making a case. No sale.
 
Last edited:
Property rights? Never heard of 'em.

That's because you don't have them, and I didn't mention them. You however have responsibilities in return for the right to LIVE on and with the property you have. You have those responsibilities as a member of society, whether or not you own a single thing. If you don't, they can take your property from you, no questions asked no money paid, and force you to live on THEIR property, where the rules are far stricter and your rights greatly reduced. They kinda gotcha by the balls already.

"Reasonable" is a piece of content-free semantics. If someone decides a home alarm system is required for "reasonable," what happens to the person who can't afford one or the renter whose landlord says nuh-uh?

Fine, I'll specify, and just because you're being a d*** about a term commonly used on both sides of legal arguments by members of both political parties, I'll put more on you. You have the responsibility to do whatever is financially and technically feasible to deter thieves from attempting to steal dangerous property, just like any courier or repository of dangerous materials is required to take every precaution feasible to prevent theft. Even though that responsibility is not coded in law, failure to live up to it inevitably ends up with your property in the hands of someone who can't or won't use it properly and with respect for what it can do, with the net result that people are placed in danger of harm. If you can't afford the very best, you get the very best you can afford, and if the very best you can afford is ineffectual, you have a duty to rid yourself of the dangerous property into safe hands before it ends up in criminal hands.

Like I said; I put the breech lock in my non-carry 9mm every morning, in addition to locking my door. It's the very least I can do; if I could AFFORD it, I'd get a safe. If you won't even take the responsibility to use the lock that is required to be provided with every new handgun sold in most U.S. states, I stand by my convictions; you are not worthy of the rights you have, and you have absolutely no right to complain when they take your rights from you because you won't shoulder the responsibility.

Second, if they can require "reasonable" security provisions, they can also enter your premises and inspect to make sure they're in place. As is about to happen in Canada.

So if that clause makes it into a gun bill, you lobby your butt off. The enforcement should be in hindsight; your gun was stolen because you failed to secure it properly, so you should have every expectation of being censured and, yes, punished. Just like if you turned left on a red light, you are censured and punished for the accident that is likely to follow. But if you beat the odds and don't end up T-boned, and a casual observation by a patrolling officer doesn't catch you (like a cop in your house for something unrelated notices a gun with no lock being carried out to you by your 4-year-old going "look Daddy!"), you go about your way, until the next time you turn left on red and once again roll the dice that your disregard for human safety won't result in a penalty. The police do not have the power to prevent you from breaking the law unless they catch you in the act, and thanks to your Fourth Amendment rights the police must assume you are following all laws until they have good cause to believe otherwise. So go ahead and roll the dice; when your gun collection goes missing and a gang-banger shoots someone in my apartment with the result that the apartment manager bans guns on their property, I will come and thank you personally.
 
You may not be criminally liable, but you now will have to live the rest of your life knowing the fact that by failing to properly secure it, you allowed a criminal to use your gun to kill someone, someone who, just maybe, would still be alive if the criminal who broke in weren't able to get your gun.

Sorry , but I would not feel it was in any way MY fault that someone else decided to break a law , then break more from ill gotten gains .

You have no excuse; if you can't or won't lock up the guns that are not on your person or within your easy reach, you are not worthy of the rights you have and you deserve to have them taken from you.
Sorry to see you hold that view . There is no excuse to rob/burglarize/murder/rape etc etc . My HOME is secured , therefore , my guns are secured . Someone breeching my home has already committed several crimes , but apparently , in your eyes , I"M still at fault for their actions .
And thank you for judging who should or shouldn't have rights based on what someone else will do with stolen property . Apparently , guns are the only thing you think warrant this scrutiny . Forget about the knives,axes,machetes,etc etc that have been used to kill . Heck , why don't we just construct fortresses with armed guards for all the things that can be used to kill and maim .

Sorry , but not buying it . If someone broke into my neighbors home, stole his guns, then murdered a family member , the person I would blame is the one wielding the weapon . I actually will put blame where it belongs .
 
Just like if you turned left on a red light, you are censured and punished for the accident that is likely to follow.

Umm , you broke a law , therefore YOU are responsible . Just like someone doing a B&E is responsible for actions taken during and after the crime .

I'm not the brightest bulb , but I DO know that it's a crime to trespass , and commit burglary, and commit murder , and fence stolen goods . Whether it's a locked door or a 1' thick safe , the person doing the crime is responsible , not the guy who resides in his humble abode. Putting the blame on gun owners for acts committed by criminals is , at best, a delusional misplacement of responsibility .
 
Sorry to see you hold that view . There is no excuse to rob/burglarize/murder/rape etc etc . My HOME is secured , therefore , my guns are secured . Someone breeching my home has already committed several crimes, but apparently, in your eyes, I'M still at fault for their actions.

You don't get it. I never said, nor will you ever hear me say, that the person who stole your gun is anything but a criminal who deserves the full punishment by law. Nor will you ever hear me say it is your fault that the criminal broke laws to get into your house, nor is it your fault he's using your gun to break more laws. No gun owner should be brought up for murder on what someone else did with his stolen gun.

The fact that your gun was stolen, however, is prima facie evidence that you failed to protect a deadly weapon in your possession, and most often that failure is due to carelessness in storage and handling. If the thief brought a hacksaw to cut through the breech lock of your handgun or a blowtorch or drill to defeat your gun safe, that breach was not something you could guard against without security measures that are not financially feasible and therefore you cannot be expected to guard your guns that carefully. My whole point is that, similar to other dangerous items, regulations must be made for the safe handling, storage, and disposal of guns, including regulations regarding theft prevention. These regulations are currently informal rules that are adhered to on an honor system with no penalty for non-compliance; my only argument is that the informal rules be codified, so that everyone knows and is held to a standard of handling, storage and security that most can agree will minimize accidents and theft, and establish penalties for those who do not comply. I argue for this because obviously many are not adequately securing guns, and that lack, even in a locked home, allows bad people to do bad things with guns they should not, and otherwise would not, be able to get their hands on. I made this comparison before; a disease research center from which a terrorist manages to steal a viral agent is liable, NOT for the deaths, illnesses and other damage the viral agent causes, but for their breach of security resulting in a successful theft. They are required by law to provide a standard of security, and a theft is prima facie evidence that they did not maintain the required level of security. That research center is, in many jurisdictions, civilly liable for the whole kit and kaboodle, but let's stick to criminal law; it's more cut and dried. The level of security required of a disease center is very high; you think their only security is the front door? There are locks, alarms and sensors from the front door to the lab, because the materials under study, if allowed to escape or be stolen, will kill. Your firearms are each capable of similar damage, and if allowed to be stolen it is very likely that damage will be dealt. However, the naysayers I am angry at don't want a tenth of that protection. I am advocating that weapons not in use or of which you do not have conceivable need are kept locked. It's very simple, and advocated by practically everyone on both sides. Yet you refuse to see a need. That infuriates me.

I'm angry because not only do you not want to codify these rules, which I might understand, you don't wish to do so out of simple laziness; you don't even want to require locking just the guns you would not have the inclination to use while in your home, as much because of your belief that locking your home. You have so much as said that. You, just like all the antis who want to take guns away, are suggesting every solution except the steps we can personally take to help, and pointing the finger instead at everything you can condemn, but cannot yourself control, and THAT is why I say you are being irresponsible and undeserving of your rights.

You say that creating legally enforceable standards for gun handling and storage will eventually trickle down into everything that is dangerous. It's a fallacious slippery slope argument; you do not know the future, and cannot with even reasonable certainty say that a gun law will eventually result in your kitchen knives being banned. Knives are utility tools; they are deadly weapons, like anything that can cut, but are indispensable because they are the best tool for cutting anything. A knife designed for fighting can just as easily slice chicken (It's called the Perrin, and it's in Spyderco's catalog). A gun is also a tool, but its primary purpose is to cause damage at a distance. It is ill-suited, because of its power, the noise created, and the potential for unintentional damage even when tightly controlled, to use it anywhere other than a safe practice environment or a survival situation. These two types of deadly weapons are therefore just that; two completely different classes, and to compare them only as deadly weapons and draw a parallel for their control ignores every other use of both tools.

Like you say, hatchets, chainsaws, and other tools can also be deadly weapons. In fact, ANYTHING can be a deadly weapon. Let's ban rope because you can use it to strangle. Let's ban rat poison because it kills humans too. Let's ban combs; rake one across someone's eyes and you can blind them. Anything small enough to fit in someone's eye socket or trachea can be a deadly weapon. So too is anything that with sufficient force will penetrate the skin and tear a blood vessel. So too, anything that in sufficient quantities upsets the chemical balance of the person enough to cause death. You know, just between those three things we've covered practically every substance on the planet, including other humans. It's ridiculous, as you say, and nobody with the capacity to actually think will ever think that is reasonable. The difference however, is use. You hear that thieves stole a truckload of mothballs, and your first thought is that they f***ed up, not that they want to grind them up and make napthalene firebombs. You hear that thieves raided a gun store and you are worried about guns on the street. That's because a gun's primary purpose is to kill, whatever other useful purposes it has, and very few would think the thieves were looking to melt them down and sell them for scrap. That is the difference between a gun, explosive, or WMD-capable agent and everything else on the planet; inferred intent.

Even if logically sound, it is possible, and I'll try to find the proof, to construct a proof that 0=1, that is at least at face value mathematically and logically sound. Therefore 1=2 because 0+1 = 1+1, and so on ad infinitum. At some point there has to be a threshold of reason. There comes a point at which the logic which holds up when comparing A to B and B to C breaks down when you apply it to X, Y, or Z.

You also say that laws concerning mandatory gun storage conditions would lead to compulsory inspections of weapon storage. Why would it? Marijuana's illegal; does that mean we must submit to compulsory warrantless searches for weed just because it's been 180 days since the last one? Of course not. Alcohol is highly regulated and no one under 21 is allowed to drink. Does that mean we conduct random BAL, and for that matter, drug tests in our schools? Of course not. We are bound by the same Bill of Rights to assume that each person is following all applicable laws until we have expressible reason to think they are not, and unless we can prove they are not, they are.
 
Last edited:
19-3Ben:

He is not a troll. He's a good guy with honest questions.

I agree with Ben. Even though I think the proposal is intergalactic, there's thought behind it.

I don't agree with the thought either, of course, because my idea of good parenting is to help kids grow as quickly as possible beyond dependency on anyone but themselves.
 
The fact that your gun was stolen, however, is prima facie evidence that you failed to protect a deadly weapon in your possession, and most often that failure is due to carelessness in storage and handling.

By that logic, any parent whose child is abducted should be punished for failure to protect their child.
 
The fact that your gun was stolen, however, is prima facie evidence that you failed to protect a deadly weapon in your possession, and most often that failure is due to carelessness in storage and handling. If the thief brought a hacksaw to cut through the breech lock of your handgun or a blowtorch or drill to defeat your gun safe, that breach was not something you could guard against without security measures that are not financially feasible and therefore you cannot be expected to guard your guns that carefully. My whole point is that, similar to other dangerous items, regulations must be made for the safe handling, storage, and disposal of guns, including regulations regarding theft prevention. These regulations are currently informal rules that are adhered to on an honor system with no penalty for non-compliance;

I dont recall that anyone gave you the power to be the arbiter of rules by which we all live. I dont recall electing you to decide where the line of reasonableness lies.

I have a concrete vault with 2 foot thick steel reinforced walls, and a 3000lb safe door where I keep my guns so can I decide that the trigger lock which is all you can afford or that sheet metal cabinet is insufficient???

I say no.
 
Recently Saudi Arabia made the news, when a young woman was raped by 4 men, and was punished for being the victim with 200 lashes and 2 years in jail. Why? because just like in your example, the men broke a law but she also broke a law.

The law this poor woman broke is the saudi law that says a woman can't be in the company of a man who is not her relative without a male relative along as a chaperone.

Thats the law in Saudi. I'm glad we don't have a similar law here, even if the unaccompanied party is an inanimate object such as a gun, and the idea is to punish the owner because he didnt prevent someone else from committing a crime with a gun which was stolen from him.
 
I'm angry because not only do you not want to codify these rules, which I might understand, you don't wish to do so out of simple laziness; you don't even want to follow the informal rules. You have so much as said that. You, just like all the antis who want to take guns away, are pointing the finger at everything except what you can personally do to help change the situation, and THAT is why I say you are being irresponsible and undeserving of your rights.

I'm actually offended. By my not adhering to YOUR "codified rules" , I'm lazy? I'm like an anti "pointing the finger at everything except what you can personally do to help change the situation" ? Well I'll be . I vote and am active in getting , and keeping, criminals off the street through tougher laws . What I do personally to keep criminals from getting guns is , I don't give/lend criminals guns. My responsibility ends when someone decides they are going to commit crimes , except to be sure they are punished for what they did .

It's not being lazy to think that a person and their goods are secure within their own home . It IS being lazy "pointing the finger" at someone that did NOT break the law in order to curb the acts of those not so inclined to abide by the law . Lay blame where blame belongs , with the criminal .
 
MiddleAged Ken

Second, if they can require "reasonable" security provisions, they can also enter your premises and inspect to make sure they're in place. As is about to happen in Canada.

It's also back-door registration, because when they enter to inspect your security arrangements, they'll see what you have.

Bingo, in New Zealand gun storage legislation started out as a measure to prevent child access. However the points made in the quote above are increasingly becoming part of the wider discussion on gun policy.

Liko81

I never said, nor will you ever hear me say, that the person who stole your gun is anything but a criminal who deserves the full punishment by law. Nor will you ever hear me say it is your fault that the criminal broke laws to get into your house, nor is it your fault he's using your gun to break more laws.

The argument you are crafting though would spread the liability for a criminal act across two individuals (the thief and owner) instead of one (the thief). To my mind, spreading the liability diminishes the level of responsibility to the criminal actor.

You hear that thieves stole a truckload of mothballs, and your first thought is that they f***ed up, not that they want to grind them up and make napthalene firebombs. You hear that thieves raided a gun store and you are worried about guns on the street.

Actually, I'm always more concerned about thefts of industrial chemicals then firearms..

You also say that laws concerning mandatory gun storage conditions would lead to compulsory inspections of weapon storage. Why would it?

Because there are numerous foreign jurisdictions where exactly that has happened. We have this legislation where I live (New Zealand), and it is simply a feel good measure that wastes precious time and money from the budget of the criminal justice sector.

I'd rather see the Government's efforts spent on increasing gun safety classes in High Schools, instead of creating a new catergory of malum probihitum offenders.
 
So, as I understand it and following the same premise, the parole board, state legislature, and prosecutor all share liability for not securing their "dangerous criminals" who go on to commit another crime after early release.

Just like many of the other 20,000 gun laws on the books, this one really doesn't do anything other than shift responsibility for one's own actions, and seeks to create an offense with which a victim of theft could be prosecuted for.


We did not childproof the world. We worldproofed the children. It worked for us. It also worked for our parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and all the way back in time.

Wise words indeed.
 
You have the responsibility to do whatever is financially and technically feasible to deter thieves from attempting to steal dangerous property

Every bit as content-free as "reasonable." Who gets to decide?

I made this comparison before; a disease research center from which a terrorist manages to steal a viral agent is liable, NOT for the deaths, illnesses and other damage the viral agent causes, but for their breach of security resulting in a successful theft. They are required by law to provide a standard of security...

False analogy then, and false analogy now. A viral agent doesn't need a terrorist to steal it to be dangerous. All that has to happen, assuming it's airborne, is to escape containment. Those laws are in place for that reason. My guns are no threat to anyone without volition and action.

That's because you don't have them, and I didn't mention them.

How novel. Test that sometime, by going onto someone's property-held-at-privilege without his permission, and report back to us, won't you?

You, just like all the antis who want to take guns away, are suggesting every solution except the steps we can personally take to help, and pointing the finger instead at everything you can condemn, but cannot yourself control, and THAT is why I say you are being irresponsible and undeserving of your rights.

There's only one person in this thread singing from the Brady songbook, blowhard, and it's you.
 
liko81 said:
Any security measure, ANY security measure, is defeatable, solely on the principle that those who need access have it, therefore even if security can't be bypassed any other way than by having access, those who do not have access can somehow get it. Therefore, locks, codes, concealment, alarms, guards, and other security measures protect only by discouraging theft

I'm beginning to see your point. The only place a gun is *really* secure is in posession of its lawful owner. Therefore, the real problem is "prohibited places" (schools, courthouses, federal buildings, etc) where a citizen is not allowed to carry a gun -- because this forces one to store the gun somewhere where it could be stolen by a determined thief.

We need to do away with all alleged "gun free zones." It's the only solution when you take your premise to its logical conclusion.
 
As a criminal statute, absolutely not. I could see willfully furnishing a firearm to someone you had good reason to know would misuse it being criminal negligence, but then, we already have criminal negligence statutes.

As far as civil liability goes, I could see certain egregious cases incurring liability, under such doctrines as "attractive nuisance" or other liability statute (for example, leaving a gun unsecured on the front porch, and it being used to injure someone, I can see where there would be some liability), but then, we already have liability laws.

In other words, it doesn't matter that it's a gun; we have ways of punishing bad actions, regardless of what tool is used.
 
I do not support any law that makes someone other than the person who commits a criminal act responsible for that act, unless someone willfully and knowingly furnishes a criminal with equipment to be used in a crime. That is already illegal. But making me responsible for a crime if someone steals my stuff (gun or whatever)?

What about someone who leaves a car unlocked, so it gets stolen and used as a getaway car? Running shoes? Where does this stop?

WRT suicide, if you kill yourself, good riddance. Try not to leave a mess and make it someone else's problem. There are plenty of us who want to live; if you want to make room for us, go ahead.

Now if I know someone who's down and he/she needs help, I'm there. But if you really want to kill yourself, that's your business.
 
What if...

If a guest in my home,takes my car keys without my permission and proceedes to kill someone...am I guilty of homocide ? It was my instrument that was used. Am I responsible for knowing where every piece of personal propery I have in my home is at any one time ? Am I responsible for my guests actions ? We have given a persons responsibility a back seat. Just as I am responsible for my own protection, I must be fully resposible my for my actions. It's becomes just too easy to blame the other guy.
 
Liko81:

The fact that your gun was stolen, however, is prima facie evidence that you failed to protect a deadly weapon in your possession, and most often that failure is due to carelessness in storage and handling.

Are you a practicing attorney?
 
The locking mechanism must incorporate a unique physical key or combination to enable or disable the lock, and must enable or disable only that lock. This condition is not met if the physical key or combination required to disable the lock is made accessible to non-authorized persons by negligence or conscious action/inaction.

I'm not a locksmith, but know for a fact that a certain car manufacturer had only about 20 "unique" locks from ~1979-1995; I suspect the same is true for others AND other types of key locks...

If the thief brought a hacksaw to cut through the breech lock of your handgun or a blowtorch or drill to defeat your gun safe, that breach was not something you could guard against without security measures that are not financially feasible and therefore you cannot be expected to guard your guns that carefully.
I guess you'd better secure your tools as well, using yet another "unique" lock, because otherwise YOU are an irresponsible tool owner, since you know or should have known that your gun lock can be defeated by tools and YOU left them unsecured. Really, where does your line of responsibility end?

How about if the thief steals YOUR locked-up gun and your non-gun-owning NEIGHBOR'S tools - should he added to the irresponsible list too? :rolleyes:
 
Liko81 --

I do not have a responsibility to do anything. The Constitution guarantees me the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. It states nothing whatsoever about the mode, means or manner in which I keep my arms.

They are MY arms. Other people have a responsibility to keep their grubby mitts off MY property. Even if I leave the front door open while I dash to the corner store for a quart of milk, it is illegal for anyone to enter MY home without my permission, and it is illegal for anyone to take MY arms, even if I leave them in plain sight on the kitchen table while I'm out.

I would not do that today, of course -- but only because of a general decline in society. I should be able to do that today. When I was a young sprout and we visited my grandparents in the summer, the house was never locked. And the rifle was always on the shelf over the back door. Nobody ever stole it, and nobody ever took it down and waved it around during an argument. Trigger locks hadn't been invented. No, it wasn't stored loaded ... but the ammunition was right beside it. Where else would a rational person store ammunition? It's for the gun ... of COURSE you'd keep it with the gun. Don't you store the gasoline for the lawn mower with the mower?

I'm sorry, but that which you seem to think "reasonable" I find unreasonable in the extreme.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
II - Condition (5) is not met in the case of a firearm that, as specifically defined by [the legislating body] or in the opinion of [applicable courts], is not suitable for home defense. Such firearms may include antique/curio weapons, firearms designed to hold a single shot, firearms designed primarily for hunting/sporting and are decided to have few or no design features other than status as a firearm that facilitate use in home or personal defense, or other firearms of a type or caliber that are defined by [legislature] or decided by a court of law applicable to the laws of [jurisdiction] to be insufficient for defense purposes. In making such a decision in a court of law, the burden of proof shall be placed on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a weapon of such type and caliber would be insufficient for any defense purpose.

You've already trotted out "guns are for killing, everything else is a secondary purpose." .22 Short can kill, .410 can kill, all hunting calibers by definition kill, antiques/curios kill (proven when they were NOT antiques but new and revolutionary designs)...single-shot is more than sufficient for defense (according to D.C. and Chicago). Therefore, this paragraph is meaningless.

If all one has is an antique flintlock (and is satisfied with that choice) for HD, who are you or your "legislative bodies" or with your "court opinions" to judge otherwise? :scrutiny:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top