Your system for putting a threat down.

[Ech0Sierra]

I've always thought two in the chest, one in the head, but does anyone have a different system?

 

[finnerandr]

Aim center of mass and shoot till the mag is empty or they drop, whichever comes first. Thats what I will do in the event that it ever happens.

 

[Bartkowski]

If I were ever in a situation where I needed to shoot someone I would probably try to put two in their chest and one in their head, but I would probably forget to do so and just keep shooting their torso.

 

[Ech0Sierra]

Since most criminals don't have body armor, I think 15 rounds of 147gr. Hydra-Shok to the torso would be fine, right? No need to trouble myself to aim at the head then.

 

[sacp81170a]

Depends entirely on the nature of the threat and the available cover. If caught by surprise and without any cover available, charge, shoot until the threat goes down, and run him over and knock him down if the rounds don't. It works. I was trained in the technique by guys who've BTDT. "The key word in gunfight is fight."

 

[TexasRifleman]

I've always thought two in the chest, one in the head, but does anyone have a different system?

I've always thought that if you have time to think of that in the heat of the moment then maybe it wasn't time to shoot yet and you'll be in deep doo in very short order.

There is a reason that every training center there is teaches to shoot Center of Mass and nothing else.

Watching HEAT over and over is NOT training.

 

[Gustav]

A 97 pound Doberman works well.

 

[strambo]

My system (not that I came up with it) is to simply injure them until they are no longer a threat via the most efficient method at hand for the situation.

Could be with a gun...or not. Could be with a knife, or a club...or not. Could just be with a rock, or my bare hands (feet-knees-elbows inclusive)...or something else entirely.

"Gun" people always tend to look at everything needing a better "gun" solution...just look at what happens in the "what if" hypothetical threads. Sometimes a firearm is the most efficient and effective tool for the job. Sometimes they are less adequate (like at very close range).

You need an integrated approach where you can seemlessly go from gun to H2H (edged/impact weapons inclusive) and back again without hesitation.

Turn a corner and get attacked by a guy with a knife (with gun still in holster), take him out via H2H methods. As you scan for additional threats, you see his lookout 15 ft. away grabbing a pistol. Sidestep and draw your CCW and engage. He charges and even though you get 2 COM hits, he keeps coming...step in and slam your offside forearm into his throat putting him on his arse, then kick his gun away, get some distance and scan again (as he asphyxiates).

Real life won't be so clean as the example above...just an example of the ideal you would strive to attain in flowing from H2H to gun back to H2H as each is better suited.

 

[possum]

my faliure to stop depends on the situation but i train primarially faliure to stop multiple rds well spaced in the center of mass, to create more wound chanels, with good seperation and then go to the pelvis take out thier foundation and they are done. and this makes the ending the cofrontation much easier, if it hasn't already. they are no longer a moving threat.

 

[Crunker1337]

I'd go for the old one-two (double-tap) to the COM, and repeat if the first shots didn't end the threat. I wouldn't try for a headshot unless the aggressor won't falter after multiple torso hits or is wearing armor (or in an improbable situation like a hostage situation).

 

[Jeff White]

Do what it takes to win. There is nothing wrong with a standard failure drill. It's taught in all the schools, military, LE and civilian I've attended. I've also seen multiple shots COM taught. I've heard it called an extended failure drill, the five shot failure drill and the non-standard response. It doesn't really matter, the key is to keep fighting until the threat has ended.

Note I said keep fighting, not necessarily keep shooting. strambo made an excellent point in that we never can tell how the fight will happen. They are all different. You may need to use HTH, edged weapons and gunfire.

sacp81170a made a good point in that your only option may be to advance, shooting all the way. Once the decision is made to fight, you need to explode into action and only stop when the threat ceases to be a threat. There is no right answer to this question. Just a bunch of different techniques that have all worked in the past, but may or may not be applicable to your situation.

You don't want to train on just one. Because you will default to your training and if you shoot what looks like the perfect failure drill from your perspective and you missed the head shot, you don't want to stand there stunned thinking "now what?" Stay in the fight. If you miss the head shot, shoot it again, or shoot for the torso again. Don't get set on one specific engagement method. None of them work all the time against every threat. Learn and practice several.

Jeff

 

[Nix]

aim for the nuts... shoot 4ish times... the recoil will land a nice pattern in the body lol

 

[[email protected]]

I've always thought that if you have time to think of that in the heat of the moment

I`ve practiced so much at the 2 to the body and 1 to the noggin that it`s practically a robotic action but I will say that the double tap to the chest with the .40 S@W 165 grain BJHP will probably render a head shot unavailable.

 

[plexreticle]

If they have the jump on you take any shot you can while getting out of the kill zone. If you have the initiative then unload center mass until they stop what they were doing.

 

[Jeff White]

but I will say that the double tap to the chest with the .40 S@W 165 grain BJHP will probably render a head shot unavailable.

That's just the kind of mindset that you don't want to develop. If you really believe that a double tap (what's a double tap BTW) to the chest with a 165 grain BJHP out of your 40 S&W will render a head shot unavailable, then you are very likely to be standing there dumbfounded when it doesn't.

Handguns are notoriously poor stoppers. There are plenty of people who have taken much more damage then that and continued to fight and win. Google the Medal of Honor citations sometime and read about the kind of wounds that men not only survive for extended periods, but continue to function with. Two chest hits with anything short of a 90 mm recoilless rifle are just as likely to have no immediate effect as they are to stop the fight right then.

Jeff

 

[PPGMD]

There is a reason that every training center there is teaches to shoot Center of Mass and nothing else.

Every? At Gunsite and SigArms Academy they trained the standard failure drill (two to the chest, one to the head).

At both schools they cite not only the increased uses of body armor in crimes (which thanks to cheaper level II, and IIIA), but attackers high on drugs which suppresses the pain that brings the psychological stopping power.

Hitting an attacker in the spine or the home plate of the head is the only sure way to put a man down. Anywhere else he can operate for 10-15 seconds or more.

Remember that 85% of bullet wounds are survivable no matter the caliber.

 

[cslinger]

My plan most likely involves emptying whatever is at hand center mass, while screaming like a little girl and might possibly involve warm liquids running down my right or left leg.

I shoot lots. I am capable of hitting what I aim at whether moving or not, but I know that God forbid I have to use those skills that my mind will likely fall into some kind of prehistoric fight and flee until the threat is either gone or down. I have no desire or illusions of pulling off some kind of well thought out Navy seal take down of multiple threats. I am not saying there are not those who can pull off that type of engagement but realistically for me, I am not one of them.

 

[tnieto2004]

Any way possible to stop the attack ..

 

[Noxx]

I practice the standard Moz drill until it's second nature, but when I try to do it super-fast, under stress, at ranges outside 10 yards I whiff that headshot about half the time.

I think the most effective thing you can do is practice a wide range of drills, and when the time comes you'll make the best of your training. No single plan of action fits all, or even most scenarios. The best you can hope for, imho, is that you have trained to the extent that firing and loading your pistol is as natural to you as moving and seeking cover.

One point of some interest. If you watch security camera videos of gunfights, as they often pop up on youtube, etc, you'll notice an interesting trend. Very often it seems that as soon as the victim goes for his gun, the aggressor, despite having the drop on the victim, tends to shag it. It seems that having a gun and brandishing it in the commission of a felony doesn't necessarily mean that the aggressor has the stones or the plan to actually shoot someone on a moments notice.

Not that I would count on that of course, just something I've noticed lately that I thought was odd.

My personal experience suggests that "in the moment" your training will guide you as best it can, there won't be much conscious decision making about it.

 

[Ech0Sierra]

I mainly do center of mass, occasionally go for the head in practice. I also practice with my folding knife, and know several different strikes for HTH. It's nice to know the variations around here.

 

[[email protected]]

If you really believe that a double tap (what's a double tap BTW) to the chest with a 165 grain BJHP out of your 40 S&W will render a head shot unavailable, then you are very likely to be standing there dumbfounded when it doesn't.

To much T.V.

 

[tnieto2004]

To much T.V.

I was thinking quite the opposite .. His point is very realistic .. Thinking that two shots will stop the aggression is wishful thinking at best ..

 

[Crunker1337]

Well, to be fair, only a very determined aggressor will keep attacking after being shot.

 

[tnieto2004]

Stranger things have happened!

 

[Thekatar]

Well, to be fair, only a very determined aggressor will keep attacking after being shot.

Aggressors have notorious reputations for determination.

Different instructors teach different methods but most are more similar than different.

Most teach a "standard response", two rounds in the upper thoracic, reassess. A "failure drill" is the immediate placement of a single aimed round in the ocular window after the previous assessment determined that the standard response was ineffective.

A non-standard response would be a "burst" of rounds, probably five or six, into the upper thoracic.

John Farnam (and some others) advocates "zippering up" which is starting at the navel and firing four shots, with the last in the upper thoracic. One reason Farnam advocates this method is because he argues that people move first (lead) with their upper body so it is easier to get the first hit at the navel.

Some slightly more controversial instructors teach the "pelvic girdle" shot as a type of failure drill.

In the end, the actual method is probably not as important as long as only the threat is hit and as long as you move off the line of force.