Your system for putting a threat down.
- Thread starter Ech0Sierra
- Start date
- Status
sacp81170a
Member
+1000
I should have included in that post, get competent instruction. As with any technique that involves drawing and firing on the move, repetitive dry practice is a must even after you've received instruction. I wouldn't normally have given a detailed description except for the amount of interest shown. Stay safe, practice sloowwly with a partner and no weapon under supervision with good safety equipment (mats at least) and don't even think about executing this drill for real unless you've done it about a thousand times in practice. Someone will get hurt.
03Shadowbob
Member
From one of my favorite movies...."I will blow your pinky toe off." 
I figure if I can blow the pinky toe off, they know I can hit em in the eye if I want to. LOL
I figure if I can blow the pinky toe off, they know I can hit em in the eye if I want to. LOL
CoRoMo
Member
I was trained to stop a threat, not to kill a man. Killing is not part of the equation. If I'm drawing my gun, I'm prepared to use it. Sometimes presenting a weapon stops the threat, sometimes it take one round to stop 'em, it might take all the rounds I got, but I'm only trying to stop the threat. You'll own every shot whether you mean to or not. COM only because that is the tested drill that works. In low light, I don't want to try to find the dude's face, or assume his face is still in the location it was before the previous shot.
My .02
My .02
damagefactor
Member
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2007
- Messages
- 13
The Mozambique Drill. Even two 9mm rounds to the chest will phase an adversary initially (that isn't on drugs, even a .45ACP won't help then.), allowing the last tap to the head. Drill this to perfection, it could take a lot of repetition to get right. Once you got it, you only need regular range practice to maintain it.
Also, an adversary who takes several rounds and survives will often ingnore further wounds. They will turn to reckless abandon. Hence the tap to the noggi'n
As far as fundamentals, you either got them or you don't. DRILL!
Research a proper drawing method if you drill with a pistol. PM me if you want to hear how I prefer to do it.
After you draw:
Get behind that weapon, lean into it and roll your shoulders forward and tight. Squeeze that weapon hard! It will help you controll recoil. Strong arm locked straight, reaction arm pulling the weapon in.
This "stance", while not a true stance... just some basic rules - Gives the fundamentals of combat shooting IMHO. It is easy to shoot accurately, but it is very difficult to shoot accurately and rapidly in a hostile enviornment. Training goes out the window, but all drills you beat to death will stay with you!
Firing the weapon:
Don't slap the trigger, don't anticipate the "bang". Slow becomes smooth, smooth becomes fast. Squeeze the trigger, don't pull. After firing, release the trigger to the sear (if you don't know, it's usually when you hear and feel a click in the trigger) and immediately squeeze again.
If you drill right, you can draw your weapon and come up on target in less than 2 seconds without looking or thinking about what you are doing. You can then fire the weapon accurately.
If you drill right, the firearm will return to your target subconciously.
If you drill right, you will immedately fire the second round without realizing where the sear is.
If you drill right, the whole package will come together and you are now a "point and click device". I can empty a full 15+1 in my 92FS in 5-10 seconds. Basically as fast as my finger will move, with 95-99% accurate center mass hits out to 25 yards. If you shoot small groups, you don't shoot fast enough for combat. All you need is center mass rapid fire accuracy.
Move to the Mozambique Drill once this is perfected, it will come naturally if you master the fundamentals. Ideally you will look to where you want to shoot, and the good habits you drilled to perfection will take over - bringing your weapon onto your target without mental thought.
I've been trained several ways, so I took the best of what I've learned and made it into an art by drilling. Combat accuracy cannot be drilled into existance. Fundamentals that are drilled into good habits will then translate into combat accuracy.
Most people can shoot well under range conditions and combat distance, hardly anyone can shoot under combat conditions at combat distance. Look at all the police shoot outs where only a few bullets hit their targets despite an entire magazine being fired. I would sell my guns if I could only hit 3 rounds out of 16 under combat conditions.
Also, an adversary who takes several rounds and survives will often ingnore further wounds. They will turn to reckless abandon. Hence the tap to the noggi'n
As far as fundamentals, you either got them or you don't. DRILL!
Research a proper drawing method if you drill with a pistol. PM me if you want to hear how I prefer to do it.
After you draw:
Get behind that weapon, lean into it and roll your shoulders forward and tight. Squeeze that weapon hard! It will help you controll recoil. Strong arm locked straight, reaction arm pulling the weapon in.
This "stance", while not a true stance... just some basic rules - Gives the fundamentals of combat shooting IMHO. It is easy to shoot accurately, but it is very difficult to shoot accurately and rapidly in a hostile enviornment. Training goes out the window, but all drills you beat to death will stay with you!
Firing the weapon:
Don't slap the trigger, don't anticipate the "bang". Slow becomes smooth, smooth becomes fast. Squeeze the trigger, don't pull. After firing, release the trigger to the sear (if you don't know, it's usually when you hear and feel a click in the trigger) and immediately squeeze again.
If you drill right, you can draw your weapon and come up on target in less than 2 seconds without looking or thinking about what you are doing. You can then fire the weapon accurately.
If you drill right, the firearm will return to your target subconciously.
If you drill right, you will immedately fire the second round without realizing where the sear is.
If you drill right, the whole package will come together and you are now a "point and click device". I can empty a full 15+1 in my 92FS in 5-10 seconds. Basically as fast as my finger will move, with 95-99% accurate center mass hits out to 25 yards. If you shoot small groups, you don't shoot fast enough for combat. All you need is center mass rapid fire accuracy.
Move to the Mozambique Drill once this is perfected, it will come naturally if you master the fundamentals. Ideally you will look to where you want to shoot, and the good habits you drilled to perfection will take over - bringing your weapon onto your target without mental thought.
I've been trained several ways, so I took the best of what I've learned and made it into an art by drilling. Combat accuracy cannot be drilled into existance. Fundamentals that are drilled into good habits will then translate into combat accuracy.
Most people can shoot well under range conditions and combat distance, hardly anyone can shoot under combat conditions at combat distance. Look at all the police shoot outs where only a few bullets hit their targets despite an entire magazine being fired. I would sell my guns if I could only hit 3 rounds out of 16 under combat conditions.
RobMoore
Member
If you look at all the police scores and their courses of fire from when they were on the range, you wouldn't see excellence, you see mediocrity. So, a 10% hit ratio isn't suprising.
....and your sig isn't funny, I drive a Corvette. :/
....and your sig isn't funny, I drive a Corvette. :/
damagefactor
Member
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2007
- Messages
- 13
LOL, sorry bout the corvette sig. I think I made it better.
I actually expect the police to perform poorly, they qualify once or twice a year most areas. It is no wonder police kill more people accidentally per year than citizens defending themselves.
I actually expect the police to perform poorly, they qualify once or twice a year most areas. It is no wonder police kill more people accidentally per year than citizens defending themselves.
RobMoore
Member
I wonder if I'm related to this Roy person. Every eligible person should be able to buy a Corvette, as long as they wait 7 days, register it with the government, and pay the $200 tax stamp.
Mad Chemist
Member
Most of the responses to this thread strike me as rather arrogant.
Not all criminals are stupid.
Not all assailants are idiot crackhead/tweaker/junky muggers, armed with little more than a rusty screwdriver and bad teeth.
Many BGs train, and a lot of them train harder than you do!
If we really intend to take our own self protection seriously then we should train to the best of our abilities and prepare for the worst case scenario, not some imaginary cakewalk.:banghead:
BTW, many thanks to the contributers that actually mentioned CQ tactics and improvisation. At least some of the folks here aren't suffering from tool-fixation.
Not all criminals are stupid.
Not all assailants are idiot crackhead/tweaker/junky muggers, armed with little more than a rusty screwdriver and bad teeth.
Many BGs train, and a lot of them train harder than you do!
If we really intend to take our own self protection seriously then we should train to the best of our abilities and prepare for the worst case scenario, not some imaginary cakewalk.:banghead:
BTW, many thanks to the contributers that actually mentioned CQ tactics and improvisation. At least some of the folks here aren't suffering from tool-fixation.
mercop
Member.
My system is Modern Combatives, Open-Hand, Stick, Knife and Pistol within seven yards. MCS is based on human anatomy and stress response. There are only really two types of weapons, edged and impact. If it can not cut you then it is an impact weapon. Even a bullet is a hybrid going really fast. There are only two ways besides burning to cause trauma to the human body, cutting and crushing.
Immediate incapacitation is best achieved by attacking in the following order-
Central Nervous System- Head/spine (attacked with open hand and impact weapons)
Skeletal System- elbows and knees since they are hinge joints and prone to over extension and easily exploited. (Attacked with open hand and impact weapons)
Muscular System- the muscles to move the bones, to effectively compromise them edged weapons are needed. Sometimes they can do very little to slow a threat down.
Circulatory System- blood goes round and round, any deviation from that is bad. Think of it like bending a garden hose, one half back up, the other runs out. Still takes some time, in that time a bad guy can do a lot of damage.
Central Nervous System disruption is at the very base of MCS. An open hand shot to the head disorients and off balances your attacker allowing you to carry out the open hand counter attack or creating space and time to draw a weapon.
If you system does not have a measured response you are going to have a hard time defending it in court.
Training over tools.
Immediate incapacitation is best achieved by attacking in the following order-
Central Nervous System- Head/spine (attacked with open hand and impact weapons)
Skeletal System- elbows and knees since they are hinge joints and prone to over extension and easily exploited. (Attacked with open hand and impact weapons)
Muscular System- the muscles to move the bones, to effectively compromise them edged weapons are needed. Sometimes they can do very little to slow a threat down.
Circulatory System- blood goes round and round, any deviation from that is bad. Think of it like bending a garden hose, one half back up, the other runs out. Still takes some time, in that time a bad guy can do a lot of damage.
Central Nervous System disruption is at the very base of MCS. An open hand shot to the head disorients and off balances your attacker allowing you to carry out the open hand counter attack or creating space and time to draw a weapon.
If you system does not have a measured response you are going to have a hard time defending it in court.
Training over tools.
damagefactor
Member
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2007
- Messages
- 13
Robmoore "I wonder if I'm related to this Roy person. Every eligible person should be able to buy a Corvette, as long as they wait 7 days, register it with the government, and pay the $200 tax stamp."
lmaorof... uh, whoops... But but but... only traffic cops need corvettes!
Mad Chemist "Most of the responses to this thread strike me as rather arrogant.
Not all criminals are stupid.
Not all assailants are idiot crackhead/tweaker/junky muggers, armed with little more than a rusty screwdriver and bad teeth.
Many BGs train, and a lot of them train harder than you do! "
A civilian self defense situation is waaaay different than in a war zone. True there may be some criminals that fit your descriptions, but please show me the last time a gang was stacked up outside someones house during a break-in.
If you are trying to prepare for every situation fine, but calling other posters arrogant because they hold views opposite of yours is arrogant and unhelpful.
lmaorof... uh, whoops... But but but... only traffic cops need corvettes!
Mad Chemist "Most of the responses to this thread strike me as rather arrogant.
Not all criminals are stupid.
Not all assailants are idiot crackhead/tweaker/junky muggers, armed with little more than a rusty screwdriver and bad teeth.
Many BGs train, and a lot of them train harder than you do! "
A civilian self defense situation is waaaay different than in a war zone. True there may be some criminals that fit your descriptions, but please show me the last time a gang was stacked up outside someones house during a break-in.
If you are trying to prepare for every situation fine, but calling other posters arrogant because they hold views opposite of yours is arrogant and unhelpful.
elkhuntingfool
member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 393
Running and screaming like a girl works for me!
As for a threat - hmmm...hope I never have to run into that problem. My eyes are constantly scanning where I am. I try to sit against the wall at a restaurant - drives my wife crazy. I don't let people walk behind me in a crowd - or I try to anyhow.
If I see a threat - I try EVERYTHING to avoid it.
As for two to the chest and one to the head. I'd probably be squeezing that trigger so fast that I'd forget to put one in the head - so probably 4 or 5 in the torso, a few in the leg, maybe hit their arm, or hand. Probably in all the excitement I might actually hit them in the foot. If they still aren't down - pistol whip them - I don't carry an extra mag.
sacp81170a
Member
Good idea, biker. In fact, a big ol' Ruger Blackhawk with a 6" barrel would be a pretty formidable club all by itself. I wouldn't try it with a Kel-Tec, though. 
(Remember, "Use enough gun...")
(Remember, "Use enough gun...")
Last edited:
Mad Chemist
Member
damagefactor wrote:
Being a victim of a home invasion robbery back in 1998 was what started me down this path. I don't know what you think qualifies as a "gang" but 4 against one proved to be too much for me to handle.
Like mercop stated, TRAINING OVER TOOLS.
If you want to believe that every violent encounter is clearly defined at the outset, and that the distances involved allow for artifacts such as the Mozambique drill to be reliable and expedient; that is your prerogative.
I personally don't believe it. My personal experiences refutes it, my research contradicts it, and nearly all the experienced professionals I've interacted with did not believe it either.
I really don't want to hijack the thread, but it seems wildly out of sync with reality.
If we want to address "civilian" self defense then why aren't we addressing civilian self defense?
How many accounts of armed citizens performing Mozambique drills on deranged assailants really exist? My educated guess is few to none.
How often to we read about mugging, carjacking, rape, and robbery? I do believe the answer is daily, the frequency is geography dependent for sure, but these crimes are ubiquitous in our society.
So maybe we should focus on the anatomy of criminal assault and the common tactics that predators use when selecting their prey. Maybe we could also consider the distraction and deception techniques used to close distance and confuse the victim.
And after giving all of these variables serious and realistic consideration coupled with a bit of basic empiricism, we could even compile our observations into a subforum and call it Strategies and Tactics.
Being a victim of a home invasion robbery back in 1998 was what started me down this path. I don't know what you think qualifies as a "gang" but 4 against one proved to be too much for me to handle.
Like mercop stated, TRAINING OVER TOOLS.
If you want to believe that every violent encounter is clearly defined at the outset, and that the distances involved allow for artifacts such as the Mozambique drill to be reliable and expedient; that is your prerogative.
I personally don't believe it. My personal experiences refutes it, my research contradicts it, and nearly all the experienced professionals I've interacted with did not believe it either.
I really don't want to hijack the thread, but it seems wildly out of sync with reality.
If we want to address "civilian" self defense then why aren't we addressing civilian self defense?
How many accounts of armed citizens performing Mozambique drills on deranged assailants really exist? My educated guess is few to none.
How often to we read about mugging, carjacking, rape, and robbery? I do believe the answer is daily, the frequency is geography dependent for sure, but these crimes are ubiquitous in our society.
So maybe we should focus on the anatomy of criminal assault and the common tactics that predators use when selecting their prey. Maybe we could also consider the distraction and deception techniques used to close distance and confuse the victim.
And after giving all of these variables serious and realistic consideration coupled with a bit of basic empiricism, we could even compile our observations into a subforum and call it Strategies and Tactics.
Who are you to define anyone else's fight? The fact is, every fight is different and if you're involved, it's uniquely yours. Just because the circumstances of your individual fight did not give you the distance to fire a Mozambique drill, doesn't mean that the technique is an artifact. It just means that it wasn't an appropriate technique for that fight.
Don't you think the reason might be that most armed citizens have nothing more then the bare minimum of training required to get their CCW?
Good idea, why don't you start a thread about that very subject?
Techniques like failure drills, the non-standard response are on topic here, shooting while moving (that's an argument in itself) ... and that's what the OP asked about. It takes all three legs of the combat triad to prevail, although I'd add a fourth leg, luck, if I were writing a book. All of those subjects are on topic here. Situational awareness greater then NORAD watching the skies during the cold war is great, but if there is a breakdown and you find yourself in a position to have to fight, then you better possess a skill set that ives you a chance to prevail. It all goes together, and all of it is on topic here.
Jeff
Super Trucker
Member
Aim for the center mass until slide lock
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch had us do this as the "Sh_tstorm of lead" technique. We practiced it first from a stationary position and then while going through a full out retreat to cover. Because of being in motion, it is difficult to land shots to the head and so the notion is that you land as many as possible to the body, knowing full well that the person may be wearing armor or not immediately stopped, but that the person will be hampered by the incoming rounds impacting and hence buying you more time to reach cover safely.
HOWEVER...
Mark Wilson was apparently attempting this on a guy in body armor in Tyler. He waited until the guy started the reload of his rifle and that is when Wilson opened up on the guy from about 2 parking space widths distance.. Apparently unknown to Wilson, he was taking cover behind the bad guy's truck which the bad guy needed for his egress. 5 or 6 shots hit the bad guy COM and then one hit below the vest. The the bad guy shot Wilson with the rifle. Wilson went down and the guy walked over and finished him. For whatever reason and from behind cover, Wilson did not appear to take a head shot when his COM rounds failed to stop the bad guy.
-----
I do like a lot of the responses noted here. There are a lot of people very confident in their skills and confident that they will be able to fire accurately and enough shots sufficient for the job. Based on real life cases, people often do not have guns that fire the needed number of rounds (malfunction, damage to the gun from incoming rounds, limited capacity), can't fire the gun for the number of rounds needed (hit by incoming fire) or be able to do so in a timely manner. Failure to stop drills don't seem to end up being put into real life application very often. Plus, there is the ongoing problem of folks simply being able to hit their intended targets.
I would not count on being successful without the combat triad being met (mindset, marksmanship, and gun handling), but people often do. These guys were victorious apparently without having hit the threats...
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-concealed0707nov07,0,613083.story
Heck, people have gotten away with stopping threats with warning shots and even without shooting, but those are not avenues I would want to count on to be successful.
In Mark Wilson's case, he had all three but still lost.
KBintheSLC
Member
I'm sure the jury will find you to be very level-headed and let you go free.
halfacop
Member
Why don't you ask South Caroline State Trooper Coates how that plan of attack worked for him...........oh wait you can't.......he was killed after putting all 6 rounds of 357 magnum into center mass of his attacker.
His dept now trains 2 to the body one to the head because of this very incident. I know you said 15 rounds not 6 - however, alot can happen in the first 6 - 10 rounds as Coates murderour proved.
Keep in mind - The ****bag that killed Trooper Coates survived his wounds and is rotting in jail.........but he lived to talk about it.
sacp81170a
Member
If that's the one I'm thinking of, Trooper Coates was killed by a single .22 round fired from a short barrelled revolver. The .22 went under his armpit, missing his vest, and lodged in his heart. Which brings us to the other factor that Jeff mentions:
Sadly, you can do everything right and still die. Bottom line, if you don't have to be there for the gunfight, be somewhere else!
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked