Smith357
Member
Back when I carried an M16a1 I saw them made by General Motors, H&R, and Colt. I heard stories of one made by Mattel but never saw one in person.
Who builds our GI Issue M-16's?
- Thread starter AKElroy
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DMK
Member
It's my understanding that the Colt 6920 is about as close to a real M4 as you can get. You just need to add the proper Aimpoint M68 CCO sight, the mount, the proper rail setup and all those other expensive accessories or however you want to configure it.
DMK
Member
Those were all contractors for Vietnam era M16s.
This part is pure folklore. Mattel never made a real M16.
I was also on active duty then. How do you think I saw the rifles his secuity detail carried?
How do you think I knew about the firefight over a card game in a hotel? That wasnt published info.
There was only one brigade of 82nd that was in the first gulf war, they tried the BM M4 and liked the fact that it was easier to jump with.
How sad, so what if I didnt use an official designation for a unit, you get the idea.
By the way Norman chose his own security detail, that was common knowledge among many units over there.
Yes, there were deficiancies with the last M16A2s when they were delivered, almost all of them the same, all were returned and remedied. All of the M-16A2s before that were excellent rifles, I really liked them.
Personally I could care less about personal posturing on here and who takes who seriously, I read alot of comments posted by people claiming to be "in the know" and I realize that too many of them get their info from gunshop employees and 2 internet forums, instead of actual experience or reputeable sources.
I ask for proof all of the time here, I get nothing but brand snob comments, and "its well documented". Somehow people think that I have something against colt, I really dont, but I also know that they are no better than most major manufacturers.
Theres alot that happens in the army thats not documented correctly, or is never told to the public.
There were alot more than 65 of those rifles, not thousands, but alot more than 65. I couldnt tell you what happened to those rifles after the war, but they were in use. Back then the closest rifle to those Bushmaster M4 in use was the CAR-15 used mostly by the Air Force by air crews.
The last discussion about those rifles the colt fans tried to say that those BM M4s rifles never existed, now they existed and there were only 65 of them, next time there will only be 165 purchased, at least it will be closer to the truth.
How do you think I knew about the firefight over a card game in a hotel? That wasnt published info.
There was only one brigade of 82nd that was in the first gulf war, they tried the BM M4 and liked the fact that it was easier to jump with.
How sad, so what if I didnt use an official designation for a unit, you get the idea.
By the way Norman chose his own security detail, that was common knowledge among many units over there.
Yes, there were deficiancies with the last M16A2s when they were delivered, almost all of them the same, all were returned and remedied. All of the M-16A2s before that were excellent rifles, I really liked them.
Personally I could care less about personal posturing on here and who takes who seriously, I read alot of comments posted by people claiming to be "in the know" and I realize that too many of them get their info from gunshop employees and 2 internet forums, instead of actual experience or reputeable sources.
I ask for proof all of the time here, I get nothing but brand snob comments, and "its well documented". Somehow people think that I have something against colt, I really dont, but I also know that they are no better than most major manufacturers.
Theres alot that happens in the army thats not documented correctly, or is never told to the public.
There were alot more than 65 of those rifles, not thousands, but alot more than 65. I couldnt tell you what happened to those rifles after the war, but they were in use. Back then the closest rifle to those Bushmaster M4 in use was the CAR-15 used mostly by the Air Force by air crews.
The last discussion about those rifles the colt fans tried to say that those BM M4s rifles never existed, now they existed and there were only 65 of them, next time there will only be 165 purchased, at least it will be closer to the truth.
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if I remember correctly:
Colt lost out to FN on m16s primarily because of the underbidding. Fair and simple. There will always be minor quality control issues that FN can and possibly has been victim to, but all in all it came down to them underbidding Colt by 25% of Colt's quoted cost.
Colt still holds some M16 contracts, but they are with law enforcement or otherwise domestic for the most part. They had one contract for the military, and it was only for like a hundred rifles before they got cut off.
The reason why Colt got the M4 contract was not as a consolation prize, but because it was their rifle; the Army could not contract it to anyone but Colt (well, they could have contracted it elsewhere, but after the lawsuit and royalty settlement to Colt, it would have been way more expensive). Colt owned the TDP, specs, patent, etc. for the M4 up until two weeks ago. They still hold the main contract, but the army can now go and contract other companies if they choose to do so. FN could probably be the next producer of M4's, but the Army says that they don't need any more than what Colt is obligated via ongoing contract to finish making, so who knows. If it does happen, it probably won't be for two years or so.
Sabre Defense holds some contracts with the military and some federal government agencies. They also (I believe) had something with the Coast Guard and other at-home forces as well.
Rock River also holds some contracts with the fed (mainly the treasury if I recall correctly) and various law enforcement, but I don't think any of those are dealing with M16 or M4 rifles - just ARs.
Colt lost out to FN on m16s primarily because of the underbidding. Fair and simple. There will always be minor quality control issues that FN can and possibly has been victim to, but all in all it came down to them underbidding Colt by 25% of Colt's quoted cost.
Colt still holds some M16 contracts, but they are with law enforcement or otherwise domestic for the most part. They had one contract for the military, and it was only for like a hundred rifles before they got cut off.
The reason why Colt got the M4 contract was not as a consolation prize, but because it was their rifle; the Army could not contract it to anyone but Colt (well, they could have contracted it elsewhere, but after the lawsuit and royalty settlement to Colt, it would have been way more expensive). Colt owned the TDP, specs, patent, etc. for the M4 up until two weeks ago. They still hold the main contract, but the army can now go and contract other companies if they choose to do so. FN could probably be the next producer of M4's, but the Army says that they don't need any more than what Colt is obligated via ongoing contract to finish making, so who knows. If it does happen, it probably won't be for two years or so.
Sabre Defense holds some contracts with the military and some federal government agencies. They also (I believe) had something with the Coast Guard and other at-home forces as well.
Rock River also holds some contracts with the fed (mainly the treasury if I recall correctly) and various law enforcement, but I don't think any of those are dealing with M16 or M4 rifles - just ARs.
Tim the student
Member
The Army disagrees with you: "But seven months later the paratroopers were again called to war. Six days after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait on August 2, 1990, the 82nd became the vanguard of the largest deployment of American troops since Vietnam.
The first unit to deploy to Saudi Arabia was a task force comprising the Division's 2nd Brigade. Soon after, the rest of the Division followed" http://www.bragg.army.mil/82DV/History.htm
What makes the M4 easier to jump with? The stock is fully extened in the M1950. I have jumped both M16's and M4's, and there really is no discernable difference. Maybe a really, really short person might notice, but they jump the same to me, and I'm only 5'7". It's not like the difference between a 240 and an M4.
When were the test jumps done?
News photographs the same way most of the public saw them.
The entire division deployed in 1990. There were no mass tactical parachute drops in the first gulf war. Which Brigade had these weapons? Surely you must know......
Do you even know the official designation of the unit? What is it?
So the editors of the official Army publication Soldiers Magazine made up the story?
Anytime you want to compare DD214s let me know. I think that you are the one getting your information from gun shop employees and internet forums because so much of it is completely wrong and simply a rehash of things that have been floating around the gun shows and the internet for years.
Bushmaster made a grand total of 65 rifles for the military. That is a documented fact. Are you disputing Bushmaster's own court filing? And if there weren't thousands, where did the 4000 you claim a brigade of the 82d carried in the first gulf war come from? Are you now admitting they didn't have them? I think you have your wars mixed up. Only one brigade of the 82d ever served in Vietnam, but the entire division deployed to Southwest Asia.
A couple sentences back you said there weren't thousands, now there are again and you don't know what happened to them? Make up your mind.
Are you referring to the GAU-5? Made by Colt, been around since the 1960s....
Once again, the only documentation of Bushmaster selling rifles to the US military is the 65 they stated in their court filing. If Bushmaster doesn't admit to selling more then 65, why do you insist they did?
Bushmaster used that 65 rifle one time buy in their advertising for years. It's the same thing many companies do when they sell something to the military or other government agency.
If you like Bushmaster, that's fine. Argue that it's better on it's merits, making up things to justify your opinion doesn't convince anyone.
If you can find a Bushmaster flat top for $950 you should take it and right now. The prices I've been seeing are around $1100-$1200 for that model. I bought a "Patrolman's Carbine" about 2 years ago for $750 and I have to say that the prices are now through the roof and going higher. I would recommend the Bushmaster as well. The gun I have is super accurate and has taken ever kind of ammo that I've fed it up to this point.
Faitmaker
Member
Interestingling enough, the NRA Rifleman just talked about this myth in the August issue.
"News photographs the same way most of the public saw them."
I have the 35mm photos that I took while serving proudly.
"The entire division deployed in 1990"
No it didnt, check your history, one brigade went over, they also went north with a French unit.
By the way, they did jump so they could earn the right to say they jumped into combat.
Yes I do know the name of the unit. Do you?
"I think that you are the one getting your information from gun shop employees and internet forums"
Sorry, I dont frequent gunshops, and the only place I see this BS crap posted on the internet unless its being rehashed is here by a few people and on one other site which I dont participate.
"Bushmaster made a grand total of 65 rifles for the military"
If you want to believe that then by all means go right ahead. What I saw in person was far more than 65.
"A couple sentences back you said there weren't thousands, now there are again and you don't know what happened to them? Make up your mind."
You need to learn some reading comprehension, seriously. Alot more than 65, but not thousands, hmmm... Also, I said that I dont know what happened to the rifles after the war.
Are you referring to the GAU-5? Made by Colt, been around since the 1960s.
Possibly, I didnt look closely at them, or spend much time around air crews except when I was being transported in their aircraft.
By the way, I like lots of brands of AR type rifles. Why is it that a few people keep insisting that I dont like colt, or have some major problem with them. My major problem is with those who lie about them being some gold standard, and being made far better than all of their competitiors, and that their competition falls apart for no reason or fails every time you shoot them, proven fact that with exception of Vulcan, the others shoot and shoot with no problems and work just as good for thousands of rds.
I have the 35mm photos that I took while serving proudly.
"The entire division deployed in 1990"
No it didnt, check your history, one brigade went over, they also went north with a French unit.
By the way, they did jump so they could earn the right to say they jumped into combat.
Yes I do know the name of the unit. Do you?
"I think that you are the one getting your information from gun shop employees and internet forums"
Sorry, I dont frequent gunshops, and the only place I see this BS crap posted on the internet unless its being rehashed is here by a few people and on one other site which I dont participate.
"Bushmaster made a grand total of 65 rifles for the military"
If you want to believe that then by all means go right ahead. What I saw in person was far more than 65.
"A couple sentences back you said there weren't thousands, now there are again and you don't know what happened to them? Make up your mind."
You need to learn some reading comprehension, seriously. Alot more than 65, but not thousands, hmmm... Also, I said that I dont know what happened to the rifles after the war.
Are you referring to the GAU-5? Made by Colt, been around since the 1960s.
Possibly, I didnt look closely at them, or spend much time around air crews except when I was being transported in their aircraft.
By the way, I like lots of brands of AR type rifles. Why is it that a few people keep insisting that I dont like colt, or have some major problem with them. My major problem is with those who lie about them being some gold standard, and being made far better than all of their competitiors, and that their competition falls apart for no reason or fails every time you shoot them, proven fact that with exception of Vulcan, the others shoot and shoot with no problems and work just as good for thousands of rds.
Tim the student
Member
http://www.bragg.army.mil/82DV/History.htm I guess they are lying? Maybe the 82nd doesn't know its own history? Ok, suuuuure. Why is there no mention of a jump? Oh, again, they don't know their own history.
I've never met anyone from Division that ever mentioned a jump, or wore a mustard stain from Desert Storm. in my time in the 1/508, 3/505, and 3/505 (again). Why?
Sir, I suggest you check your history.
I did check the history:
http://www.history.army.mil/reference/DS-Poster.htm
http://www.bragg.army.mil/82sb/82nd SB History.htm
All of divarty was there:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu_G6E.../FAMAG/1991/APR_1991/APR_1991_PAGES_23_27.pdf
There is one parachute drop listed for Desert Storm, a 12 man HALO insertion of a special forces team. No mass tactical drop of any kind from 20 December 1989 until 26 March 2003 when the 173d jumped into Northern Iraq.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/airborne-jumps.htm
Of course I do, but don't deflect the question. I asked you first, what is it?
Really? Where did you see these vapor rifles? The never existed, period, now matter how many times you say they did won't make it true. Bushmaster sold 65 rifles to a unit in the US Army around 1990. That's it, the sum total of their military production.
So you expect us to believe that Bushmaster produced more then 65 rifles for the Army, more then 65 but not the 4000 you said equipped a brigade of the 82d, and these rifles mysteriously disappeared after the war. There is no documentation of them ever being purchased or issued, no documentation of a brigade of the 82d using them and as soon as the war was over the M4 fairy changed them all back into M16A2s..........
Ok if you say so .I never questioned what rifle you liked, that's immaterial to me. I have been questioning the history that you are fabricating to make your point.
And what personal experience do you have with a rifle that disproves this? How many rounds a year do you personally fire from your rifle? How much time do you spend in a training environment where ARs from all the different manufacturers are used hard? My friend said doesn't count here, I'm asking for first hand knowledge. But that's really a topic for another thread. This thread is about who makes the M16....
HorseSoldier
Member
It's been said already, but no mustard stain from Desert Shield/Storm for guys in the 82nd.
rscalzo
Member
Bushmaster assembles. They don't produce anything.
rscalzo
Member
Doesn't seem to be the case. Sounds like a case of union sour grapes.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/10/03/nyregion/army-drops-colt-as-m16-rifle-maker.html
Ok regardless of who makes the current (or for that matter older) G.I. M16/M4s. We all know that military contracts are won by the cheapest bidder. This could be an indicator that searching for similar models in the civilian market may be a bad idea.
w_houle
Member
Would this be the ones marked as GM Pipe works?
hags
Member
Another case of unions shooting themshelves in the foot. No pun intended but welcome anyway.
Maverick223
Member
I agree to an extent, as there is often something better than GI issue, and you will generally pay a premium for something that is GI spec or looks/is fielded by the US armed forces, but they don't tend to have junk. All of the equipment (that sticks around for a while) has met stringent quality standards and has proved itself to be satisfactory in service. This goes for everything from lowly P-38 can openers to F-22 fighter jets.
In this case you probably want to find a rifle as close to the military specifications as you can get. The M16 technical data package specifies things that you won't find on rifles made by most aftermarket manufacturers. It's up to you to decide if you need a rifle built to those specifications. Things like parkerizing under the front sight base. Necessary on a military weapon that may be exposed to the elements for weeks at a time, submerged in salt water or otherwise abused, but maybe not necessary for your purposes. You may or may not need 4150 barrel steel and a chrome lined bore. If you are going to use the rifle for precision shooting like prairie dog hunting, then you may not want a 5.56mm chamber but you may want a match chamber on an aftermarket rifle. You should decide how you are going to use the rifle and what your budget is and make an informed decision.
My uncle was in the 82nd after graduating from West Point. He had to put off his wedding to deploy for Desert Shield/Storm.
I remember asking him why we'd send paratroopers when all we heard on the news was how much AAA Saddam had.
He explained that it had nothing to do with them specifically being paratroopers, and they are as heck weren't going to do anything remotely related to a big jump (like they did when he rather unfortunately was injured upon landing when they did Panama a seemingly short time before), but simply because the division was part of our "rapid deployment" collection of units, or something to that effect.
Either way, even though at the time I was just a kid who was interested in what was going on with our military, I'd stake my last dollar on the fact that the whole division went.
He was an Lt running one of the weapons outfits (I don't know at what level - whether platoon or something smaller) - he told me of what he apparently thought was the rather inglorious helicopter ride (is this technically called "air assault"? as opposed to a jump?) and long walk across the sand with his pack AND the baseplate for an 81mm mortar.
I remember asking him why we'd send paratroopers when all we heard on the news was how much AAA Saddam had.
He explained that it had nothing to do with them specifically being paratroopers, and they are as heck weren't going to do anything remotely related to a big jump (like they did when he rather unfortunately was injured upon landing when they did Panama a seemingly short time before), but simply because the division was part of our "rapid deployment" collection of units, or something to that effect.
Either way, even though at the time I was just a kid who was interested in what was going on with our military, I'd stake my last dollar on the fact that the whole division went.
He was an Lt running one of the weapons outfits (I don't know at what level - whether platoon or something smaller) - he told me of what he apparently thought was the rather inglorious helicopter ride (is this technically called "air assault"? as opposed to a jump?) and long walk across the sand with his pack AND the baseplate for an 81mm mortar.
Tim the student
Member
I wish my LT would have carried my baseplate when I was sucking as an 11C. Sounds like a good guy.
TheFallGuy
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2009
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To SHvar:
Quote:
By the way Norman chose his own security detail, that was common knowledge among many units over there.
Common knowledge among military units is mainly BS, rumors, and hearsay. You should know this if you served. I am not calling you a liar, I am just saying you shouldn't take your battle buddy's word for it. Granted, I wasn't there so I don't know what you saw but I have done my homework on the 82nd. Yes the government can sidestep contracts during war time but that hasn't happened for M4's during the two current conflicts. Currently only Colt supplies the M4's to the Army.
On a side note, I had an FN M16A2 in basic in 2004. It went belly up and was replaced with what appeared to be a new issue Colt. It is possible the Colt was refinished but it sure felt new and was definately a Colt.
Quote:
By the way Norman chose his own security detail, that was common knowledge among many units over there.
Common knowledge among military units is mainly BS, rumors, and hearsay. You should know this if you served. I am not calling you a liar, I am just saying you shouldn't take your battle buddy's word for it. Granted, I wasn't there so I don't know what you saw but I have done my homework on the 82nd. Yes the government can sidestep contracts during war time but that hasn't happened for M4's during the two current conflicts. Currently only Colt supplies the M4's to the Army.
On a side note, I had an FN M16A2 in basic in 2004. It went belly up and was replaced with what appeared to be a new issue Colt. It is possible the Colt was refinished but it sure felt new and was definately a Colt.
Tim the Student, Jeff White, and TheFallGuy
The BS was really going on before the ground war started.
I was in the HHC, 2/504th PIR (part of the 1st Brigade of the 82nd) and I was in the advanced party for the 1st Brigade.
My Battalion was on block leave (my birthday was August 2nd). I remember flying back to Ft. Bragg from Abilene, Texas.
The guys in my battalion were all returning by any means possible. As part of the advanced party, I remember stepping off the C141 onto Saudi Arabia and it was 125 degrees in the shade. The flies were horrendous. I though I had died and gone to hell!
I know for sure that the 2nd Brigade of the 82nd, the 505th PIR (Parachute Infantry Regiment) went first because they were on DRF 1.
This meant that my Brigade elements could go on block leave because we had the 2nd Brigade ready to be deployed anywhere in the world within 18 hours.
There absolutely was no mass parachute jumps in the 82nd during Desert Storm. My Brigade commander Col. Nix kept volunteering our Brigade for every possible contingent plan and "Stormin" Norman nixed (pun intended) every hair-brained idea by the Brigade commanders!
I don't know of any infantry unit that was living in a hotel in Dharan (- from what I saw it was a large hangar for supplies etc.) and that started a firefight over a card game. I cannot speak for the rest of the division or the support elements. I know that discipline in the 82nd among the infantry units was absolute you did not screw-up and not pay dearly for it.
We were somewhere in the north of SA on a missile base (we had the small mercy of living in an air-conditioned motor pool area - that smelled of fart, bad breath, and nasty crotch and armpits - every Saturday morning we washed out that entire hangar area). The engineers rigged a make-shift shower system and in Nov., Dec., and Jan. you froze your balls off from those unprotected showers). We even had to do shower duty where we had to keep an eye on naked guys taking showers and seeing to it that they policed the area after their shower! It was traumatic duty indeed!
Yes we did go north and ended up paralleling the French Foreign Legion guys! I remember tossing our MREs to them and they tossed us some of their meals. Their bread was awesome but after about 10 minutes they started throwing our MREs (Meals Rejected by Ethiopians) back at us - Mon Dieu! that is terrible!
So yes SHIVAR, I know, absolutely, that more than one Infantry Brigade deployed from the 82nd, the 505th and the 504th. You are definitely wrong! I have DD214s and DD215s to prove what I did, where I did it, and what awards and qualifications and promotions I got.
The BS was really going on before the ground war started.
I was in the HHC, 2/504th PIR (part of the 1st Brigade of the 82nd) and I was in the advanced party for the 1st Brigade.
My Battalion was on block leave (my birthday was August 2nd). I remember flying back to Ft. Bragg from Abilene, Texas.
The guys in my battalion were all returning by any means possible. As part of the advanced party, I remember stepping off the C141 onto Saudi Arabia and it was 125 degrees in the shade. The flies were horrendous. I though I had died and gone to hell!
I know for sure that the 2nd Brigade of the 82nd, the 505th PIR (Parachute Infantry Regiment) went first because they were on DRF 1.
This meant that my Brigade elements could go on block leave because we had the 2nd Brigade ready to be deployed anywhere in the world within 18 hours.
There absolutely was no mass parachute jumps in the 82nd during Desert Storm. My Brigade commander Col. Nix kept volunteering our Brigade for every possible contingent plan and "Stormin" Norman nixed (pun intended) every hair-brained idea by the Brigade commanders!
I don't know of any infantry unit that was living in a hotel in Dharan (- from what I saw it was a large hangar for supplies etc.) and that started a firefight over a card game. I cannot speak for the rest of the division or the support elements. I know that discipline in the 82nd among the infantry units was absolute you did not screw-up and not pay dearly for it.
We were somewhere in the north of SA on a missile base (we had the small mercy of living in an air-conditioned motor pool area - that smelled of fart, bad breath, and nasty crotch and armpits - every Saturday morning we washed out that entire hangar area). The engineers rigged a make-shift shower system and in Nov., Dec., and Jan. you froze your balls off from those unprotected showers). We even had to do shower duty where we had to keep an eye on naked guys taking showers and seeing to it that they policed the area after their shower! It was traumatic duty indeed!
Yes we did go north and ended up paralleling the French Foreign Legion guys! I remember tossing our MREs to them and they tossed us some of their meals. Their bread was awesome but after about 10 minutes they started throwing our MREs (Meals Rejected by Ethiopians) back at us - Mon Dieu! that is terrible!
So yes SHIVAR, I know, absolutely, that more than one Infantry Brigade deployed from the 82nd, the 505th and the 504th. You are definitely wrong! I have DD214s and DD215s to prove what I did, where I did it, and what awards and qualifications and promotions I got.
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hags
Member
Sure, but you were all using Bushmaster carbines, correct?
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