155mm question

[mons meg]

The radar is a scary thing. Works great against mortars, and really well against most heavier artillery. I say most because during exercises at 29 Palms back in '89 or so we found our current radar unable to reliably track RAP rounds, due to the extra flat trajectory. MOst times, however, a guy from the radar unit would come over and hand us a sheet of what he thought were our gun positions. They were never more than 5-10 meters off.

So naturally, during Desert Storm, Iraqi counter battery radar was a priority target for airstrikes.

 

[Jeff White]

The radars are much better now. We actually can adjust our own fire with the radar, making H&I and other unobserved fires much more accurate.

Towed artillery is still used because it is airmobile. Can't slingload an M109 . There is a new lightweight towed M155 coming into the system. Marines to field it in 2005 and Army in 2006. Even the wheeled SP howitzers used by other countries are too heavy to slingload.

Jeff

 

[Mike Irwin]

"I am quite surprised to see so much towed artillery still in use. I would have figured it would all be self-propelled by now. It is not like that is a new concept."

Cost and deployability.

You can helicopter many towed artillery pieces, something you can't do with an SP gun. At least not easily.

And, on cost, depending on the gun, 1 SPG can cost as much as 10 or more towed pieces.

 

[Ed]

Ok, Near as I remember there is a reg that says that you have to mask and open hatches after some amount of red bag. May be 12. This is due to the gasses created in the turrent. You also have to watch the wind direction, I saw 3 guys get med-evaced to de-pressure chambers at the Air Force Base nearby due to CO2 poisioning from the wind blowing back down the tube after lots of firing, and a mask doesn't help in that case, thats why you open the side hatches, the back is always open when firing. Towed is used for light units like someone said, so you can jump them in. If I get bored later I'll go find the FM and look up about the red bag thing.

 

[Jeff White]

From TM 9-1025-211-10

This is from the TM on the M198 howitzer.

WARNING
When firing the M203 charge (red bag) or M203A1 charge the following restrictions must be observed:

a. Foam earplugs must be properly worn

b. No more then 12 rounds should be fired in a given 24 hour period by any one crew or one individual crew member. If more then 12 M203 series charges are fired, all personnel must stand 25 feet (7.62m) or more behind the rear of cannon and a 25-foot (7.62m) lanyard must be used.

c. A 55-inch (1.397m) clearance must exist between the breech and ground along the recoil path prior to firing at elevations in excess of 800 mils.

d. Allowable Number of Rounds Per 24-hour period - By Charge (with hearing protection)

M203 Series -- 12
M119 Series -- 32
M4 Series -- 144
M3 Series -- 1000

NOTE
These recommended limits are mutually exclusive; e.g., 12 rounds M203 series, or 32 rounds M119 series, or 144 rounds M4 series, or 1000 rounds M3 series per 24 hour continuious time period

M3 is green bag powder
M4 is white bag
M119 is an extended range white bag charge
M203 is red bag


Jeff

 

[Blackhawk]

Ah, yes. The loving, caring Army!

The duty restrictions are on the crewmembers, not the gun.

 

[Redlg155]

I've never heard of any firing restrictions on the M109 155mm howitzer crews or guns other than rate of fire restrictions, but then I got out in 96, so things may have changed. If I remember correctly it was something like 4 rds per minute for 3 minutes followed by a cool down period or 1rd per minute indefinitely. We originally had one battery of 6 guns, but then later added 2 guns for a total of 8 in 2 seperate 4 gun platoons. We also pretty much phased out the 8" guns in favor of the 155 mm guns.

What was strange to me is that when we were in Saudi/Iraq we had a battery attatched to us that we called "Saudi Battery". They still had the original short tube M109s of the vietnam era.

As for redbag, I don't recall firing any in Iraq. We fired mostly green and white. We also got to fire a couple Copperhead missles.

Good Shooting
Red

 

[Jeff White]

Blackhawk,
The TM has plenty of things in it that cares for the gun. The tubes are borescoped for wear every 90 days. (6 months in RC peacetime). The section chief keeps a DA Form 2408-4 Weaponns Data card that tracks every round fired by type and charge. These cards are sent to the arsenal at Watervilet New York annually, where they track the wear on every howitzer, tank cannon, and mortar tube in the military.

A good example of how closely the Army tracks this stuff is that while I was typing this post I received a Maintenance Advisory Message from Rock Island Arsenal. It's unclassified. This is the gist of it:

3. Problem Discussion:

A. Summary Of Problem. With the increase of rounds fired in Southwest Asia (SWA), the Front Split Ring located on the obturator in the breech mechanism assembly of M198 Howitzer, is spreading beyond the 3/8 inch tolerance. Due to the increased demand on the front split rings, replacement front split rings stockage levels have become very low.

B. Parts, Assembly, Or Components To Be Inspected. Front Split Ring, NSN: 1025-01-038-1192.

4. User Actions:

A. Inspection Procedures. The tolerance is listed in the Operators Manual, paragraph 3-4, Troubleshooting Procedures, Malfunction #4.

B. Correction Procedures. The Users are authorized, if they don't have replacement front split rings, to use the existing split ring until they have spread beyond the new tolerance of 7/16 inch. Note: The breech will require more effort to operate as the "spread" increases. This increase in tolerance is only authorized for emergency combat use in SWA.

Jeff

 

[Jeff White]

Red,
I've never heard of any restrictions on the M109 either. Of course I was a grunt for 21 years and the M198 is the only artillery I have personal experience with.

Jeff

 

[bogie]

I can tell y'all, from experience, that if you're standing to the side of one of the 8" guns when it goes off that you _will_ be on the ground... Good thing I was wearing plugs at the time. Bad thing was that I didn't hear the fire order (was taking a picture of the gun).

 

[Blackhawk]

The TM has plenty of things in it that cares for the gun.

No doubt, Jeff, and thanks for the info!

Most of the TMs I encountered were for aircraft, and they didn't have caring words about the crew, unless you consider the "do this and the aircraft will crash" as caring by extension to the crew.

 

[M109A6 Paladin]

Just a note to say hello.

I read all the posts on this thread and you guys need some new updates.

I spent 8 years in artillery. I worked/fired the following howitzers: M101A1, M102, M109, M109A1, M114, M110A1 8 inch, M198, M119A1 and M109 Paladin.

The howitzer with the silencer on it is a German M109. It is NOT a Paladin. The article is located here: http://www.axtmoerder.de/index.php?p=470

There are a number of safety precautions for the crew when firing the howitzer to include use of hearing protection, both single and double protection, as well as restrictions on the types of ammo to be fired (over a period of time) and the use of a Micro-Climatic System (like air conditioning) and a bore evacuator which reduces the gasses inside the turret.

Your old red/green/white bags of propellent are going to the wayside with the new Modular Ammunition Charge System (MACS) which has one (bag) size. All you do is count 4 bags for 4 charges. There is less waste. It's a really good system.

The other long tubed M107 is a 175mm howitzer that we used into the '70s. I remember seeing them at Grafenwohr, Germany.

Gotta go! (Shot out!)

 

[db_tanker]

GAH!

You said Graf!

Do you remember the Schnitzel Shack? IIRC it was just down the road from tank table 12....I remember the whole company parked next to it and the exec picked up the tab for some curry schnitz on brotchen plus one of those tall-boy pepsi cans. We did pretty good on our table 12 run...no crew-cuts and got 1000. Only other company to do that was one of the troops from 11th ACR that year, I think.


Some damn good memories there.

And um...we fired a bunch more than just 12 rounds and ours might not be as big...but they sure were high pressure....I was the driver during that time and man...that was freaking bad @$$ to see that spout of flame...especially doing about 30 mph down the tank trail.

Darrell

 

[Langenator]

FYI...

The M198 towed 155mm howitzer is used by the following Army units:

The General Support artillery battalions of the 10th Mountain Div, 25th Infantry Div (Light), 82nd Airborne, and 101st Air Assault.

Also used by the artillery battalions in the Stryker brigades. From my understanding, the Army looked at truck mount SP 155s and truck mounted, 6-tube rocket systems (basically, half an MLRS) before settling on the M198.

And current firefinder radars are extremely good. I remember when I was in Albania (spring 99-during the Kosovo campaign), they had to adjust the scanning plane so they weren't constantly tracking rifle rounds fired into the air.

 

[heypete]

The howitzer with the silencer on it...

Jeeez! Silencing pistols or something for a covert operation is one thing...but silencing artillery? Incredible. I can't imagine any sort of actual valid use for this. Leaving artillery units undefended from infantry/ground attack is a bad idea, so having the silencer reduce the ability to be audibly detected from the ground doesn't make much sense.

On that note, 120mm cannons on the M1A1 family of tanks are surprisingly loud when outside (big fireball, huge concussion, sounds like a Thunderbolt of Zeus when it goes off), but are remarkably quiet inside. The entire cartridge case, with the exception of the metal base cap and 1' primer rod is combustible, and saves significantly on the amount of space spent rounds take up. I miss my tank. :/

 

[LeonCarr]

My Dad (Army, 25th Infantry, Cu Chi and Tay Ninh, Vietnam) saw an M107 175mm "backfire", and he said it looked like the world's largest peeled banana. Is this a common occurence? Hopefully not .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Sistema1927]

Yes, but can I get a "can of artillery smoke"?

 

[Jeff White]

Jeeez! Silencing pistols or something for a covert operation is one thing...but silencing artillery? Incredible. I can't imagine any sort of actual valid use for this. Leaving artillery units undefended from infantry/ground attack is a bad idea, so having the silencer reduce the ability to be audibly detected from the ground doesn't make much sense.

IIRC the silencer is to eliminate noise pollution so that the training areas can still be used. Some people don't like to live near the firing point....

Jeff

 

[rayra]

SP vs towed - cheaper, and far more portable. particularly by air or LCAC.

and jealous of Mons meg - I was HQ FDC in 5/14, stuck in the States, while he was bustin' caps in GW1.

 

[IZinterrogator]

The entire cartridge case, with the exception of the metal base cap and 1' primer rod is combustible, and saves significantly on the amount of space spent rounds take up.

Yes, and the metal base cap and 1' primer rod make an excellent ashtray back at the house if you can get your hands on one.

 

[RevDisk]

They made the comment that there's a rule of thumb that they don't fire more than a dozen rounds a day because otherwise the concussion makes the crew too disoriented and dizzy. Of course, they exceed the limit if needed in combat, but it's hard on the crew.

Uh. I've seen more than a dozen rounds fired in less than half an hour, let alone a full 24 hours. I think you have bad info.

We don't have much tube artillery in Iraq. A lot of the Arty guys are being turned into MP's.

 

[Powderman]

If you guys want more info, I can ask my son to post. He's fresh out of the sandbox, after 7 months in and around Fallujah.

He's the guy with his K-pot off.

 

[gbourne]

Some guys get to have all the fun!! Tell him good job powderman. The brass use to wine at Ft. Bragg everytime they dropped a gun and the chute didn't open.

I miss my M16A1.
11B1P
82nd Airborne 3/76 - 11/79.

 

[Oleg Volk]

How do bore evacuators function? Does anyone have a diagram?

 

[db_tanker]

gbourne...you were an 11 bullet-stopper?

Sorry...as my previous post stated, I was a DAT and proud of it.


As far as a bore evac goes...here is this I scrounged up on the net...

http://www.navytechmatch.com/DOD/Patent/PatentView.aspx?id=5404789

Hope that explains a little.

Darrell