2nd Amendment Absolutists, a question?

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Perhaps most of them would agree with you that some restrictions would be wise, but as you point out there is concern about how the regulators would be regulated

I'd like to correct the above.

The original thread starter's position is operating under the assumption that the 2nd Amendment is treated as normal constitutional law. I'd like to do the same. So in other words this thread boils down to what restrictions absolutists would stomach that would still remain true to their interpretation of the 2A.

So ksnecktieman, you do agree then that certain safety regulations on the storage of arms and ordinance could pass constitutional muster, correct?
 
Ieyasu

I do not think it is wise that every nutcase out there should have a nuke. But I do not think the government needs to regulate it. I consider it rather a "self regulating situation". As I told Gene,
"So Gene, as an answer I guess I want to say, yes, if you have a few million bucks to spare build yourself a nuke. If you want to fill your attic with ground to air missles, proceed, society has not been wronged until you hurt someone."
Do you think anyone sane and competent enough to amass millions of dollars will be interested in owning them?

My REAL concern is allowing a line to be drawn in the sand. If we permit ANY restrictions they will increase with time until everyone is on the wrong side of the line. Since 1934, with the first law regulating machine guns we have been on a path to total prohibition, it is a long road and it is not yet time for our government to enact it. BUT, it IS coming, SOON, to a neighborhood near you.

Gene?
This was a long time ago, but as I see it the Marshalls were trying to control gangs and gain control in a basically lawless society. I am not a history buff, but you have me curious about whether those laws worked. The storekeepers and citizens living there kept their rifles and shotguns. The law was aimed at men coming to town to drink and celebrate wearing guns? All I know about this I got from television westerns.

My 1989 Websters dictionary defines "arms" in this context as "weapons". It does not say personal, or mass destruction, it only says "weapons". Do you think this is not covered by the second amendment because it did not exist at that time?
If that is your opinion, then typewriters, radio, television and internet forums are not covered by the protections of the first amendment?

I think Hawkeye did a better job responding about the first amendment than I can. Thanks Hawkeye, you did good there, and I agree.
 
ksknectieman's post brings-up another issue. Does the 2A protect the right to store as much ordinance as one desires, anywhere, without any "reasonable" limitations or restrictions?
This is covered in strict tort liability. The same tort laws apply to this as to storing explosives or keeping a tiger in a cage on your property. We need no criminal laws in this regard. Tort law covers it.
 
The Real Hawkeye,

Do you believe the 2A protects the right to keep and carry any arm, anywhere, anytime?

I assume every absolutist on this board would agree that one shouldn't be allowed to drive a treaded tank just anywhere. That kind of restriction, I'm not asking about.
This is silly. I have a right to eat, but that doesn't mean that I have a right to eat your food, or drive a jeep onto your orcherd and eat your peaches. My rights extend to the tip of your nose, and no farther, as the saying goes. So long as I am not causing harm, or violating someone's private property rights, or other rights, I may exercise all of my rights, including to keep and bear arms.
 
So altimately , you'd like the option to decide what an arm is and isn't and what should be protected by the 2A and what shouldn't. Just like you'll allow an override on the "make no law" in the 1A, which it'd be safe to say libel as well. Good think you're not in charge.
Fortunately, words already have meaning, so you don't need to depend on me to decide what they mean. I was arguing as to the meaning of a word. You are free to argue that what the Founders meant by "arms" was the appendages attached to your shoulders. Let the reader decide which argument makes the most sense. Words have meaning. Neither you or I are free to alter that meaning. We may both, however, make arguments as to the objectively correct meaning.
When town Marshals made cowboys check their guns in whenever they came into town?
Seems to me that your example of checking guns at the town entrance is a proof that gun restrictions were much looser at that time. How do you think a town marshal today would respond if I showed up with a gun on my hip requesting to check it with his office? Keep in mind, also, that prior to marshal's requiring guns to be checked, they were not required to be checked. Do you have crime stats to prove that there were more murders prior to this change in town ordinance?
Are you seriously going to equate the increase in crime be directly due to increase in restriction?
Are you seriously suggesting the contrary? Not only is it rigorously logical to equate it, it is proven by scientific observation. Florida's population has not decreased since the passage of Shall Issue CCW, yet violent crime against Floridians has decreased significantly. Every such example proves my assertion.
 
Ieyasu

Again, it appears that Hawkeye has a better answer than I do.

My response is that we do not need regulations on storage. What is required is punishment for safe storage that fails. Load them in your trunk, and leave them loaded if you feel secure that way. BUT when one goes off you are liable for the damage.

Do you refer to safe storage from theft? If guns are stolen the owner is not responsible for what the theif does with them.
 
Ieyasu: "ksknectieman's post brings-up another issue. Does the 2A protect the right to store as much ordinance as one desires, anywhere, without any "reasonable" limitations or restrictions?"

The Real Hawkeye: "This is covered in strict tort liability. The same tort laws apply to this as to storing explosives or keeping a tiger in a cage on your property. We need no criminal laws in this regard. Tort law covers it."

If a person has accumulated some kind of ordinance and is storing it in a manner dangerous to the neighborhood/community, shouldn't the community be able to act on it in advance? Tort liability kicks-in only after the fact, correct?

The Real Hawkeye: "This is silly. I have a right to eat, but that doesn't mean that I have a right to eat your food, or drive a jeep onto your orcherd and eat your peaches. My rights extend to the tip of your nose, and no farther, as the saying goes. So long as I am not causing harm, or violating someone's private property rights, or other rights, I may exercise all of my rights, including to keep and bear arms."

True, those things are silly. But, do private citizens have the unfettered right to assemble in front of the White House with tanks, and any and all ordinance?
 
My 1989 Websters dictionary defines "arms" in this context as "weapons". It does not say personal, or mass destruction, it only says "weapons". Do you think this is not covered by the second amendment because it did not exist at that time?
If that is your opinion, then typewriters, radio, television and internet forums are not covered by the protections of the first amendment?
That is not a good analogy to what I argued. A typewriter or computer are merely more efficient machines for expressing one's self with words to a wider audience. A machine gun, likewise, is merely a more efficient machine for directing harm against others. An RPG is merely a more efficient method for destroying your enemy's stuff (and/or your enemy) than tossing a bomb. Being more efficient and effective does not change the classification. The closest approximation to a nuke that existed at the Founders' time, however, would be to disperse poison into the public drinking water or knowingly distributing disease contaminated blankets. I don't think the Founders considered either of these to be "arms," therefore I don't think they would consider a nuke, or nerve gas, or disease to be "arms" either. These are substances that can destroy life and real estate, but that doesn't make them "arms," regardless of the fact that they are currently used in warfare. They are, more essentially, dangerous substances, and are thus, IMHO, not barred from regulation by the Second Amendment.
 
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"How do you think a town marshal today would respond if I showed up with a gun on my hip requesting to check it with his office? "

I'm sure he'd take your gun and your ID and check you for criminal/mental background and if you caught him in a bad mood, cite you for disturbing the peace.






"Florida's population has not decreased since the passage of Shall Issue CCW, yet violent crime against Floridians has decreased significantly. Every such example proves my assertion."


Well, I live in Florida and I do have a CCW and I can tell you the 10-20-life law, police sub-stations, the Neighborhood Watch program , the 3 strikes laws and laws where criminals do all their time is what has decreased crime.


Also, as far as the FF intent with the 2A, would you agree that when they said the right to keep and bear arms would not be infringed, they were referring to upstanding citizen men, not criminals and slaves , which meant laws could be made to regulate them, which further shows that the 2A doesn't mean that guns cannot be regulated, they just can't be totally banned.
 
Well, I live in Florida and I do have a CCW and I can tell you the 10-20-life law, police sub-stations, the Neighborhood Watch program , the 3 strikes laws and laws where criminals do all their time is what has decreased crime.
Gene, I lived there just prior to the passage of Shall Issue, and for four years after Shall Issue. The change was sudden, and the only possible cause was Shall Issue. An example: Carjackers, shortly after passage of Shall Issue, who were captured by police were questioned as to why they recently began targeting only rental cars (prior to Shall Issue, they didn't particularly target rental cars). Overwhelmingly, their response was that they assumed that rental cars were occupied by vacationers, who where unlikely to have applied for or received a Florida CW license.
 
So, as far as the FF intent with the 2A, would you agree that when they said the right to keep and bear arms would not be infringed, they were referring to upstanding citizen men, not criminals and slaves , which meant laws could be made to regulate them, which further shows that the 2A doesn't mean that guns cannot be regulated, they just can't be totally banned to upstanding citizens who might be eligible for a militia?
 
So, as far as the FF intent with the 2A, would you agree that when they said the right to keep and bear arms would not be infringed, they were referring to upstanding citizen men, not criminals and slaves , which meant laws could be made to regulate them, which further shows that the 2A doesn't mean that guns cannot be regulated, they just can't be totally banned.
As you have observed, there are two types of persons who may be disarmed, 1) a person under legitimate custody, i.e., arrest or imprisonment, and 2) a slave. Chattel slavery has been outlawed, so that leaves people under legitimate custody, i.e., arrestees or prisoners. In these cases, guns are not being regulated; people are. Those under arrest are made, temporarily, into slaves. That's what disarming someone does, i.e., makes them into a slave for that period of time. In the case of arrest, however, they must eventually prove your guilt, and if convicted, you may eventually serve out your time, at which point you cease being a slave. This issue, however, has nothing to do with compromising on the absolute right to keep and bear arms. In an absolute sense, even slaves have that right, as it attaches to being an adult human being. The question is, does the law defend that right in that case, and the answer is no. The law has never defended it in that case, even if it is acknowledged as existing. This is because there are competing rights in conflict in this situation.

Since it is relevent, I will repost below a post a made much earlier in this thead:
What is the nature of the right? It is to keep and bear arms. That defines it's limits. Within the narrow confines of what arms are, we have an absolute right to keep and bear them.

Now, if a person is mentally deranged in such a way as to present an immanent danger to the lives of others, we have two competing rights in conflict, viz., on the one hand, the deranged man's right to be armed, and on the other, the right of the rest of us not to be placed in immanent and reasonable fear for our lives, by the judgment of a reasonable and prudent person. Thus, if a jury of the deranged man's peers determines that his possession of a firearm places the rest of us in immanent and reasonable fear for our lives, then we (society) are justified in taking action in our self-defense, i.e., either killing him or removing his weapons from his possession. He still retains the right, but it is temporarily subordinated to our right of self-preservation in the face of immanent threat.

You see, it's not so hard when you apply basic common sense. By the way, the very same reasoning applies to violent criminals. Notice, however, that a man's right to keep and bear arms gives way to our right to remain alive only so long as the threat to our lives and limbs remains immanent. In the case of a violent criminal, that will be determined by the parole board or the judge. In the case of the parole board, they make this determination based on current facts, in the case of a judge, he makes the determination in advance, e.g., he predicts that in 10 years, the danger to society will have dissipated enough so that the criminal will no longer be an immanent threat to our lives and limbs. A death sentence is a determination that the criminal will never cease being an immanent threat to our lives and limbs.
 
The Real Hawkeye or ksnecktieman,

Do either of you care to respond to my follow-up post?
 
In an absolute sense, even slaves have that right, as it attaches to being an adult human being. The question is, does the law defend that right in that case, and the answer is no. The law has never defended it in that case, even if it is acknowledged as existing. This is because there are competing rights in conflict in this situation.


Well the absolute sense is non-sense. Btw, if you're accused of domestic violence and own guns, they'll be confiscated, if an injunction has been filed on you and you own guns, they'll be confiscated, if you've been accused of threatening someone with a gun and you own guns , they'll be confiscsated. Also,your whole logic is based on removing someone's right to own a gun only AFTER they prove to not be responsible. This Society says that's not good enough, so gun regulation is an effort to prevent those people from aquiring a gun BEFORE the tragic event. Gun regulation is has no effect or bearing on 2A.
 
Well the absolute sense is non-sense. Btw, if you're accused of domestic violence and own guns, they'll be confiscated, if an injunction has been filed on you and you own guns, they'll be confiscated, if you've been accused of threatening someone with a gun and you own guns , they'll be confiscsated.
The word absolute refers to both the right and to the government's ability to regulate arms. In both cases, the government is legally powerless. It is legally powerless to remove the right from anyone (as government is not the source of the right), and it is powerless to legally regulate the types of arms we may own because this would be an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms, and such an infringement is illegal, according to the Second Amendment. This is the absolutist position. It does not make my position less absolute in those regards if I acknowledge that those rightfully suspected of crimes may be disarmed while in legitimate custody. The right remains in that case, but there is a conflicting right which temporarily subordinates it. That is, the right of society to arrest suspected criminals without placing those making the arrest in reasonable fear for their lives and limbs. Everyone has a right not to be placed in "reasonable fear" for their lives and limbs.
Also,your whole logic is based on removing someone's right to own a gun only AFTER they prove to not be responsible. This Society says that's not good enough, so gun regulation is an effort to prevent those people from aquiring a gun BEFORE the tragic event. Gun regulation is has no effect or bearing on 2A.
I never said government can "remove" a right. That's absurd. Government doesn't give us our rights, so how can they remove them. The best government can do is makes laws which determine what is to be done when two equal rights are in conflict. If government subordinates a right due to its being in conflict with a non-right, as in your examples above, government is acting wrongly. We do not have a right walk around without fear, only to walk around without "reasonable fear." If someone draws his gun and starts aiming it at people randomly, my fear is reasonable, and his right to keep and bear arms must be subordinated to my right not to be put in reasonable fear for my life. If, however, someone carries a firearm in a non-offensive way, my fear of him is unreasonable so, in this case, I do not have a right superior to his. His right wins.
 
If a person has accumulated some kind of ordinance and is storing it in a manner dangerous to the neighborhood/community, shouldn't the community be able to act on it in advance?
If he is storing it in such a way as to put a reasonable person in fear for his life and limbs, then I suppose a tort action could be argued based on Neglegent Infliction of Severe Emotional Distress or perhaps the crime of Reckless Endangerment. "A person is guilty of RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, that person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death."
The Real Hawkeye: "This is silly. I have a right to eat, but that doesn't mean that I have a right to eat your food, or drive a jeep onto your orcherd and eat your peaches. My rights extend to the tip of your nose, and no farther, as the saying goes. So long as I am not causing harm, or violating someone's private property rights, or other rights, I may exercise all of my rights, including to keep and bear arms."

True, those things are silly. But, do private citizens have the unfettered right to assemble in front of the White House with tanks, and any and all ordinance?
That would depend on apparent intent. In Switzerland, for example, the population (men, women and children) parades yearly past government buildings with assault rifles slung over their shoulders as a sign of patriotism, and in celebration of their ancient and cherished right to keep and bear arms. It's a big festival, and no one thinks of it as threatening to government officials. Generally, it is only governments that wish to impose tyranny on the people which have anything to fear from the people's weapons.
 
The Real Hawkeye wrote:
If he is storing it in such a way as to put a reasonable person in fear for his life and limbs, then I suppose a tort action could be argued based on Neglegent Infliction of Severe Emotional Distress or perhaps the crime of Reckless Endangerment. "A person is guilty of RECKLESS ENDANGERMENT when, under circumstances evincing a depraved indifference to human life, that person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of death."

If you accept that a tort action could be employed, then surely constitutional criminal statutes could be enacted as well. You may not like them, think they are useless, etc., however the original thread starter was asking within the bounds of constitutionality, not necessarily whether we felt certain policies would be effective. Therefore, it seems to me based on what you've said so far, statutes could be constructed, regulating the storage of ordinance that would pass constitutional muster.
 
Ieyasu ? Sorry, I was away, I had some things to do.


"If a person has accumulated some kind of ordinance and is storing it in a manner dangerous to the neighborhood/community, shouldn't the community be able to act on it in advance? Tort liability kicks-in only after the fact, correct?"

Are you speaking of my four hundred rounds of shotgun shells? To shoot up a neighborhood? Are you speaking of ten thousand rounds of mixed ammunition? To shoot up a town? Are you speaking of truckloads of explosives? Again the problem of "regulating the regulators"

Are you trying to get the nose of your camel into my tent to control my guns by making me lock away my ammunition?
 
"Ieyasu ? Sorry, I was away, I had some things to do."

That's okay, I don't expect folks to hang out here all day. The only reason I was asking The Real Hawkeye for a response was because he'd responded to GeneC so it was apparent he was still around and I thought he might have missed my post.

"Are you trying to get the nose of your camel into my tent to control my guns by making me lock away my ammunition?"

*LOL* Nope. I have no desire to own a camel. ;)

As I posted earlier, and as the thread starter had posted, I'm just interested in what regulation, if any, the absolutists would agree to as being constitutional. That doesn't mean they would think it's a good or wise policy, but that it would be constitutional. I'm interested (and apparently, so is the thread starter) how you folks interpret the 2A.

That is not the same question as asking what regulations do you think should be in place today. For example, I personally oppose all gun control regulations, in the current political environment, because our constitutional protections have been ignored. However, if there had been a tradition of solid individual-right 2A jurisprudence, I'd be willing to accept certain restrictions that I believe would be constitutional.

Now with that out of the way (hopefully I clearly made my point)...

ksnecktieman asks:
"Are you speaking of my four hundred rounds of shotgun shells? To shoot up a neighborhood? Are you speaking of ten thousand rounds of mixed ammunition? To shoot up a town? Are you speaking of truckloads of explosives?"

For now, let's say truckloads of explosives. Care to answer?

ksnecktieman writes:
"Again the problem of 'regulating the regulators' "

Not any more. This is strictly with respect to how YOU interpret the Constitution. YOU are the judge! ;)
 
Ieyasu

"This is strictly with respect to how YOU interpret the Constitution. YOU are the judge!"

OK, you made my mental wheels spin. I got out my little book from the Cato institute with the complete text of the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution of The United States. You ask me to interpret a document that many learned scholars have spent their life studying.
The Constitution is a set of guidelines and restrictions for the making of laws that We The People consider necessary if we are to remain free.
I see the first amendment as a restraint on the government that would make the federal communication commission totally invalid by regulating and taxing free speech.
I see the second amendment as a similar restraint on any type of weapon control (from a four inch boot dagger to an orbital nuclear launch facility). So any law about who may own, or what they may own as weapons or how they may carry them is "abhorrent " to the constitution and is illegal by my interpretation. To me it is a logical extension of fact that ammunition is a component of arms, and is similarly protected.

The constitution does not speak of protecting us from ourselves, so any law about the safe storage of ammunition must come from some other law. With the stipulation that it must not restrict us from easy access.
 
This is The Real Hawkeye talking here, even though it says The R Hawkeye. I've been chomping at the bit to respond, but I am preparing to move to Florida, and I packed my computer yesterday, and I was unable to sign on, for some reason, with my regular name on someone else's computer, so I was forced to make a new name, and then could not use it becaus I only today realized that this computer blocks spam, so I had to turn that feature off to register. Anyway, here's my response to the following:

If you accept that a tort action could be employed, then surely constitutional criminal statutes could be enacted as well. You may not like them, think they are useless, etc., however the original thread starter was asking within the bounds of constitutionality, not necessarily whether we felt certain policies would be effective. Therefore, it seems to me based on what you've said so far, statutes could be constructed, regulating the storage of ordinance that would pass constitutional muster.
You apparently didn't understand the post you are responding to. The post you are referring to argues that there is no need for a firearm specific law to deal with the situation you describe (dangerous storage), because there are already laws on the books that deal with reckless endangerment. If, by the standard of a reasonable person, what you are doing creates an extreme hazard to the safety of others, this is a crime. For example, if you liked loading your rifles up and placing them so they face your neighbor's children while they are playing in their back yard, you can be prosecuted under reckless endangerment statutes. There is no need for a firearm specific law, and it would be unconstitutional to have a firearm specific law, regulating how you must store firearms, because that would be an infringement on the right to keep them. That doesn't mean, however, that gun owners are free to violate general reckless endangerment statutes.

PS, I will probably not be responding too much more for the next week (unless I can't stand it) as I am in the process of moving, and my computer is already packed up for the move. So don't assume I've conceded anything. LOL :D
 
Thanks for the responses, guys.

The Real Hawkeye wrote:
You apparently didn't understand the post you are responding to.

That wasn't it. I stupidly/carelessly didn't read this entire sentence (emphasis mine):
If he is storing it in such a way as to put a reasonable person in fear for his life and limbs, then I suppose a tort action could be argued based on Neglegent Infliction of Severe Emotional Distress ***OR*** perhaps the crime of Reckless Endangerment.

Sorry 'bout that. I've been quite frustrated by folks who don't read or badly misconstrue my posts, and I just did that! *Sigh*

ksnecktieman wrote:
The Constitution is a set of guidelines and restrictions for the making of laws that We The People consider necessary

Rather than being a set of guidelines, the Constitution is a set of laws that are the supreme law of the land. (I suppose you could argue that it contains guidelines and restrictions that must be followed as law.) Article VI of the Constitution:
"This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land"

I'll have some follow-up questions, later, but the real-world beckons at the moment...
 
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