.357 Magnum vs .45 ACP

[sicario103]

I just want to know why anyone would say that high capacity mags make's no real difference?

For example, in my country, kidnapping is a big trend now. Say you're walking to your car late at night in an isolated area where getting help or being heard is unlikely. All of a sudden, ambush.... a number of armed guys comes at you. You draw your firearm and all hell breaks loose. First of, reloading during shootouts are unlikely but not unheard off because normally it (shootout) doesn't last long and BG's don't normally carry extra loads (unless they are planning something big like a bank job where theres alot of cash). Second, the main goal here is quite obvious: not to get captured (make it to your car and drive off). Now, should you kill one or more of the BG in the process should be considered as a bonus. So would a high capacity mag here not make a big difference? Would it not increase your chances?

The more rounds you can throw or the longer you can keep your fire on the BG gives a better advantage (ofcourse, assuming you're aiming and not just spraying all over the horizon and that you have a decent caliber). Wasn't that one of the main reason for the ban on high capacity mags? To give the cops an advantage?

 

[cyco668]

Revolvers: "Heavy is good, Heavy is reliable, and if it dosnt work you can always hit them with it"
The Autoloader forum is full of posts talking about problems with jams, stovepipes, failure-to-feed. etc. It's full of advice about getting new mags, tuning the extractor, opening up the port, buying new springs, and so forth. Some people are just fine tuning an already excellent product, but it seems most are trying to cure the problems and issues they have with autoloader. The Revolver forum doesn't have many posts about trying to fix such problems.
The only holster I have is for my 10mm (autoloader), no holster for either of my .357's. Speakin' about 10mm's, .45's are obsolete compared to them. How old is that round compared to .357Sigs, .40's, and 10mm's? My 10 (Witness Hunter, btw) has more power and capacity than a .45. I'm not knocking the .45, just don't see why people still rave about it. One more thing about what's "obsolete", Colt introduced .45 in 1911(the year). 357 came out in 1934(?). But autoloaders beat revolvers for CCW. A snub nose .38 doesn't beat a compact 9mm in concealment.

 

[jlh26oo]

i was the first to fight the "obsolete" ignorance here, but...

The autoloader forum is full of posts talking about problems with jams, stovepipes, failure-to-feed. etc. It's full of advice about getting new mags, tuning the extractor, opening up the port, buying new springs, and so forth.

I think you're talking about the 1911 forum (look to GT if what you seek are threads re:auto reliability/simplicity/durability/maintenance >/= that of revolvers), ymmv.

...and parts for all of the autos become scarce when recoil springs, magazine springs, etc go bad, revolvers won't be so obsolete anymore.

HELL yeah! What are these things you speak of, anwyays? SPRINGS?! ... and p-p-PARTS?! Sounds like trouble to me. I think we can all safely assume revolvers are simply a singular block of motionless steel; ymmv.


Within only one page of momentum, the pendulum of ignorance now swings back just as far in the opposite direction, ymmv.

 

[GotGlock]

Caliber : .45ACP
Bullet : 230gr. Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 935fps - 447 ft./lbs. - Glock 37

Caliber : .357 Magnum
Bullet : 125gr. Gold Dot JHP
Velocity: 1600fps - 710 ft./lbs.-4" Ruger GP-100

Drop the .45 down to gain some velocity
Caliber : .45ACP
Bullet : 165gr. JHP
Ballistics : 1325fps - 643 ft./lbs. - 5" 1911

Standard load .357 is still more powerful. And just for ****s and giggles:

Caliber : .44 Magnum
Bullet : 240gr. Gold Dot Soft Point
Ballistics : 1500fps - 1200 ft./lbs. - 6.5" bbl.

9X19 compared to .45
Caliber : 9mm
Bullet : Gold Dot JHP
Ballistics : 124gr @ 1310fps / 473ft. lbs. from a G17.
124 @ 1290fps / 458 ft. lbs. from a G19

473ft/lbs for 9x19, 447ft/lbs for .45ACP

All info borrowed for Doubletapammo.com

 

[defiant73a]

ME is only a very small portion of the effectiveness continuum, and to merely compare MEs is meaningless. ME/MV sells--unfortunately it doesn't always make for good ammo.

 

[GotGlock]

But ME is also used for determining a hunting round. Some states require 1000ft/lbs to hunt dear, etc. So it does have a large factor in judging a rounds effectiveness. A .357 magnum dumping 710 ft/lbs of energy COM is going to stop someone better then a .45ACP dumping .447. Granted there is expansion and shot placement, but taking the variables out, i would much rather have a 357 over a .45, I like the 45 round, its a proven manstopper but comparing it to a magnum round is unfair.

 

[Radjxf]

For those earlier posters who think 6 rounds isn't enough, maybe you should get off the computer and practice shooting? Stop watching so many movies! My only problem with the 357 is the flash, flip, etc are a bit much compared to the more docile .45ACP. Just have a gun handy, learn to shoot accurately and responsibly and you should be set.

 

[2ndamd]

GEEZ! I only carry a 5 shot .357 magnum. I must be undergunned

 

[robertbank]

Carry what you shoot best with, practice lots and pray you never have to use the gun on a human.

Best gun and caliber- .357 Mag vs .45acp - answer if you can't shoot either well, neither of them. Find a gun/cartridge combo you shoot well out to 15 yards with and you found the best gun for you.

The only difference between a miss with a .357 mag and a miss with a .45acp is the amount your ears will ring. At that, in the end, you might not care.

Take Care

Bob

 

[sicario103]

No one has yet answered my question yet. Well, no for SD 6 rounds is not enough nowaday when the world is becoming ever more violent where criminals are sometimes better armed than most law abiding cititzens.

But we're at different schools of thought... I'll leave it at that

 

[robertbank]

sicario103

It would be helpful if you could list one real life example where "all hell broke lose" as you describe your scenario. I assume yoou live in a cuontry that is not involved in a local war zone.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Plink]

But ME is also used for determining a hunting round. Some states require 1000ft/lbs to hunt dear, etc. So it does have a large factor in judging a rounds effectiveness.

It's not a true judge of "effectiveness". What it does is force hunters to use a heavier caliber that's more appropriate to the size of the game, to meet the requirement. But when we're talking rifle cartridges, we're also talking a whole new game. One where velocity actually does contribute to tissue damage, unlike the velocities that handguns operate at.

 

[Moonclips]

I just want to know why anyone would say that high capacity mags make's no real difference?

For example, in my country, kidnapping is a big trend now. Say you're walking to your car late at night in an isolated area where getting help or being heard is unlikely. All of a sudden, ambush.... a number of armed guys comes at you. You draw your firearm and all hell breaks loose...

Sicario103,
If you park your car in an isolated place where armed goons are liable to jump you at any moment, then, by all means do not carry an obsolete revolver. For that matter, you should not even carry an obsolete 1911. You should carry with you a high-capacity piece with a lot of extra mags for the necessary reloads. And also carry at least one backup piece -- preferably even 2 or 3 more, if possible. And a knife. An armored vest might be a good idea, too.

I, unfortunately, live in a blue state where a carry permit is almost out of the realm of possibility. So I have to be careful when I go out the front door because the squirrel loitering on the front lawn might actually be a BG in disguise waiting for the opportune time to overwhelm me and rob the house. And I have to be alert when I pick up the morning paper on the driveway to keep in the periphery of my vision the Chinese lady practicing tai-chi on her porch, lest she launches some throwing knives at me as soon as I turn my back on her. And those first-graders walking to the school bus stop might actually be carrying Uzis in their backpacks on their way to a Columbine-style school massacre.

So you really have to careful out there and do not be under-armed. Take care. (Just kidding with you.)

 

[BigO01]

sicario103 if the place I lived in was as bad as you describe above I think even if I had to sell all my guns I would do so and simply move the hell out of there !

Forget the .357 vs the 45 posts on interent forums and spend your time at the real estate and want add section of different countries or just a different city in your country !

 

[robertbank]

You guys think you have it bad! I played cowboys and indians as a kid. I now live in an area where the population is 50% native. What happens if they decide it is pay back time....

An MP 5 ain't gonna be enough.

Take Care


Bob

 

[Confederate]

I think if one is trying to protect one's self from terrorist kidnapping, okay, high-capacity autos may be the way to go. But that's a long way off from proving that revolvers are obsolete. A Ruger Single-Six was used a number of years ago to kill a terroist in Israel during an attack. Magnum ammo was used, but it put down two and killed one.

Autos can still malfunction easier than revolvers, granted, but if one has faith in an auto, it's probably been proven on the range. Still, a revolver is better suited to severe weather changes and generally packs more power in magnum loadings.

Today's autos are far more accurate and reliable than those 30 years ago, but they still haven't made revolvers obsolete. Far from it. There are many people alive today because they had .25ACP autos, too.

I'm just more comfortable with revolvers and especially like .357s.

 

[robertbank]

Confederate

I am not so sure you are correct when you say revolvers are much more reliable than autos. I rather suspect, if anything, the opposite is true. One of the primary reasons why the US Army went to the auto back in 1911 was the reliability factor ie the autos were more reliable. This is covered in Hatcher's book on Revolvers & Pistols and he was Chief of Ordnace at the time. Add to that, the speed in which reloads can be undertaken, and the auto jumps well ahead of the revolvers.

Take Care

Bob

 

[sicario103]

Originally Posted by robertbank

I assume yoou live in a cuontry that is not involved in a local war zone.

Hmmm could you please describe "local war zone"? There's no actual war or any foreign occupation right now in Venezuela. But I can say that we are in a kind of war zone. The living conditions back home are horrendous... Crime waves, political/economical instability, guerrilla (border), you name it. We're at around 45000-50000 crime related deaths in about 5-6 years and climbing fast (and this is only from what was actually confirmed... God knows how many more there are). There are more armed criminals than legal ones.... and they are much better armed.

You say why in hell don't I leave that place..... Well, I currently live in Canada but I travel south at least 1-2 times a year and some times I stay a year or more. Why?.... It's home... family...

I guess I do have a biased opinion, but because of what's happening there, I have good reasons for favoring high capacity auto?

 

[robertbank]

sicario103

Well high cap mags are not legal in Canada so I assume you are talking about what you maintain in Venuzuela. In that case a Para P- 14 with two mags would do nicely along with an MP-5, and one hand grenade. Don't laugh at the latter suggestion. If you are grabbed offer the boys a choice either let you go or we all go!

Take Care

Bob

 

[sicario103]

All assault rifles are legal only for the military. Though getting it is not hard at all if you got the cash.... ofcourse illegally. I was offered by a friend uzi's and fal's.... I had the cash but didn't see the point if I cant carry it.... If I had a big piece of land then it would have been a different story....

The president started again to allow CCW's ( since last year- everyone had to do everything from cratch...apply... fees etc) but not long guns neither for SD or hunting.

Well, the government bought 100000 ak's from Russia.... maybe i should think about it haha...

 

[strambo]

No one has yet answered my question yet. Well, no for SD 6 rounds is not enough nowaday when the world is becoming ever more violent where criminals are sometimes better armed than most law abiding cititzens.

In the US violent crime has been declining, kidnapping like you describe is rare. If your threat assessment for Venezuela is correct, then your choice of high capacity auto is sound for while you are there. I'm assuming your round count in Canada is...zero correct? Do you have a Canadian CCW, is there such a thing?

In the US, I believe stastitically, the average # of rounds fired in a police shootout (by the cop) is like 5. Keep in mind, this includes some of the very high volume shootings which bring up the average. Still at or below a revolver payload and citizen shooting will average a lot less, but I haven't seen a study. The most often # of rounds fired in a citizen self defense situation is actually 0 since the criminals usually beat feet.

 

[Inline_6]

Quote: jlh26oo

If the revolver is "obsolete"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And six rounds of .357mag just isn't cutting it, what is your opinion of compact .45's? Like a g36 which holds 7 rounds? Is that just enough, and six is just not enough?

THen what about 8 round cylinders? Do those then make autos holding less than that now obsolete?

Just curious. Revolvers aren't my cup either, but that's a pretty narrowminded take.

I don't think revolvers are dead. I also think the capacity of any weapon is less important than being able to get good hits. Of course... with regard to handguns, they are all underpowered and unreliable as man-stoppers.

That said, I'd rather carry my 45ACP revolver than the 15+1 .40 Glock I am forced to carry.

 

[Plastic Cowboy]

a little off topic but HOLY CRAP Zeke!!!
Either you are very good at photoshop or that is the biggest damn mutant cat in the whole world!!!!

...so which is it??


You could put a saddle on that thing and ride him around like He-Man on his Battle Cat (remember the old 80's cartoon? )

 

[Oregongundude]

Both rounds are very good and will do the job.

This tread is like comparing apples to oranges. However, I agree that the automatics are far superior due to the larger round capacity. Wheelguns are good, but I have seen some that hold 8 rounds without a reload. Now that being said, here's an algebra question?

If I shoot someone 8 times with a .357 magnum revolver. X=8
If I shoot someone 14 times with a XD .45 acp. Y=14

Would X, or Y cause the BG to bleed to death faster. Of course, I left out some important information which bullets were used and wound cavity generated by the rounds. I'll leave that up to your imagination. Anyway, the point is that if the BG even lives after being shot by either of these handguns 8, or 14 times I would think the 14 bullets holes would cause him to bleed out faster. than the 8 rounds. However, in both cases the chances of anyone surviving X, or Y are slim and none.

 

[MCgunner]

In the US violent crime has been declining, kidnapping like you describe is rare.

Not in Houston since Katrina and the Katrician migration. Seems New Orleans sent all their crack heads over here. There was a Katrician who claimed on the radio that if they didn't get extensions to their FEMA money, crime would dramatically increase. Handguns and handgun classes have been selling like hot cakes at IHOP.