650XL primer seating depth

[CMV]

Does this look right?



The punch is .007" below flush. My primers are seating pretty much flush. .000" - .0015" below flush is it. I'm typically .003" min depth with Lee hand prime. Not a big deal, but am getting the occasional proud one as well which is a concern. Not bad, but above flush .001". Tried Fiocchi, Wolf, & CCI #41 SRM primers. HS seems irrelevant - they're all about the same and I don't notice one HS being particularly better or worse. I'm using some Sleeping Giant Processed brass (to rule out something with brass I processed). Tried just snugging that in the press to just shy of ape torque. Shellplate bolt is as tight as it can be and allow free movement. Cleaning it (after these pics) and where it screws in no difference. Bench is solid, but to be sure it wasn't me or my handle stroke, I had handle in right hand and left hand on case feed support bar and squeezed that way to rule out any kind of bench flex/movement for a sample of 10. No difference.

I'm not expecting .223 SRM to be seating like CCI# 500 in 9mm or .45ACP @ ~.005" depth, but perfectly flush to .0015" above flush concerns me. I really don't feel like doing an immediate action drill every 3rd round because my primers are a little high. I doubt an AR would slamfire a SRM that tiny bit high, but have never had this issue so really don't know if it's a concern or more of an "they all do that" type thing.

Does that adjust somehow to control depth. I couldn't find anything in the manual about adjusting it. Turning that allen screw does nothing. I could be off, but it looks like if I could get that plunger sitting .002" higher I'd be seeing the depths I'm used to having and none slightly proud. IF it's a non-issue, that's fine too - just haven't experienced it before.

 

[dave333]

Have you tried really bearing down hard on the handle while priming? I recently switched press brands to a hornady lnl and was initially disappointed with the primer seating depth until I really started laying into the handle. Now my primers seat anywhere between .006 to as deep as .01 on occasion.

From what I've read about the 650, getting primers deep enough isn't generally one of the concerns.

 

[CMV]

Yes, more forward force on the handle does not = greater depth.

And these may very well be deep enough, just a little higher than what I'm used to getting. Different doesn't necessarily mean wrong, but since I haven't seen it before better ask....

 

[jmorris]

If more Forward force does not = greater depth, you are fully seated.

Primer seat depth isn’t limited by the seating assembly cut a case in half or just remove them all together and you can see they would seat a primer much too deep for a firing pin to even contact them, with enough force and nothing breaking.



You would have one well compacted primer if it were in here. This extra movement rearward of the handle/upward of the seating stem is a good one to get acquainted with anyway, will make it obvious is you ever miss a primer at #2.

 

[CMV]

Interesting.....So why does my Lee hand prime seat them a little deeper? Not much, but .0005 - .0015 deeper with it in general. I can take a primed case off the 650, put it in the hand prime, and get a little more depth - unless it came off the 650 at .002 depth or better (very few do). Yes, 5 tenths could just be measuring error, but tried so many there's enough to say I'm seeing that little bit....and that's resolution on digital caliper - rounds 0/5 tenths.... but will get at least 5 tenths more depth with hand prime after 650 prime and don't feel like I'm putting an ape grip squeeze on hand prime to do it. What I cannot do is take a primed case off 650, measure it as flush to .001" depth, then put it back in station 2 and apply more forward pressure to get better seating depth. It will measure exactly the same, even grabbing the case feed support brace with left hand doing a forceful push/pull like that - the primer is where it is and the 650 isn't putting it any deeper.

More important question I guess is does it matter? Is flush safe and reliable if that's where 650 bottoms it out? This might be a result of using hand prime since I started reloading and NEVER set primers by feel. I always just bottomed out the Lee hand prime, and that always resulted in primers slightly below flush (unless something wrong). And it just sort of "cams over" at the very end of stroke, so stopping by feel on it, just never did that. So maybe I did it wrong for years and have unrealistic expectation of what right should look like. But every book I have says something along the lines of "below flush with the case head". So just that makes me think "flush" shouldn't be acceptable.

To kind of calibrate my measuring (is this a self-inflicted problem because I can't use a simple tool properly?), any I measure that are proud, I put on a surface plate (ok, glass cell phone screen - I'm not a good enough machinist I need an actual granite surface plate for my setups & part measuring) and see if they will rock/feel primer as high spot. They do even if I measured it only .001" proud. My "calibrated fingertip" seems to be a pretty reliable gauge as well. Feeling proud, flush, and below is pretty accurate. Some that feel flush actually measure up to .001" depth, but haven't run across any that felt flush but measured above flush. Also measured a handful of factory XM193 & Q3131 and got .003-.004" depth on that sample, so even if my measuring sucks (I don't think that's the issue) I can still say I'm not getting SRMs to seat the way LC and Win do.....

OH - and JMorris - THANK YOU for all your help as I muddle thru the 650 learning curve! Others too, but, you've been extremely helpful and I very much appreciate it! I really like your youtube videos too - no 5 min intro video & song just for a minute of substance. They go right into and very directly illustrate the item. You make some really cool stuff!

 

[ATLDave]

My kludge for making primers seat a little deeper on my 650:

• Get a pad of post-it notes. Take ~5 off the top. Take an Xacto knife and cut a roughly-1cmX1cm square from the sticky part. You now have a small, sticky pad with the thickness of 5 post-it notes.
• Find the spot on the frame of the press where the base of the punch gets support during the down/priming stroke. Wipe off any grease/oil/powder.
• Stick the little pad there. Voila, you've just increased seating depth. Prime a case or two and see if the new depth is to your liking. If it's still not deep enough, add another few sticky squares. If it's too deep, peel off a couple.

 

[CMV]

Interesting idea - 3M shim

Called Dillon & they're sending me a new punch. The things he told me to check were things I already had except he said to check to make sure the index cam isn't hitting underside of press so will check that tonight. Also said only way to adjust the punch assy I have is to disassemble it. They have a fixture & tool they use, but said I'd have a hard time getting it back together afterward at home. Suggested I wait until I have new one in hand before taking this one apart....

 

[jmorris]

Interesting.....So why does my Lee hand prime seat them a little deeper?

More force shoving it in there, would be my guess, all else being the same.

Your welcome, I wish the Internet forums existed back when I started, would have drastically changed the shape of my learning curve. The videos are short in part because most are shot and uploaded with a cell phone and because I had a teacher at some point that said I should write like a “dress”. Short enough to keep it interesting but long enough to cover the subject. I imagine she would have been fired for saying the same thing these days.

 

[MikeInOr]

Don't forget the shell plate. If the shell plate retaining bolt is loose it will allow the shell plate to deflect upwards during the case priming. I tighten my shell plate retaining bolt until the shell plate will no longer move, then back off about 1/8 turn. I then lock it in with the allen screw on the press ram.

 

[CMV]

Mine shellplate is literally as tight as it can possibly be an function. 1° would stop it I kept tinkering to get every last bit of clockwise turn I could on it.

Just out of curiosity I'm going to prime some various 9mm w/ CCI 500. See if I have same problem with SPP...

 

[rfwobbly]

I'd say it helps the primer punch to be flush, or ever so slightly below flush, to prevent the punch from catching in the primer distribution disc. Photos Jmorris shared show the punch is more than capable of rising to the occasion. MikeInOr is right. The main suspect here is a loose shell plate holding bolt.

 

[CMV]

I just re-checked shellplate for 10th? time. ANY more clockwise on it, ram will not lower. It is at the point it can't go even a RCH tighter. So if loose shellplate bolt is issue, then something is preventing it from indexing when torqued properly. Disassembled & cleaned real well to - no crud or anything.

The Timken needle bearing is coming tomorrow. Low mass detent ball, spring, & roller bearing index cam block & casefeed cam follower day after. Maybe addition of those will allow shellplate bolt to tighten more, but as it is, it will not.

 

[ATLDave]

Yeah, the shellplate tightness was a dead end for me. Dillon’s instructions emphasize NOT tightening it very much. You’ll start getting flipped primers and worse.

Just use the post-it notes. Seriously. It really is that easy.

 

[jmorris]

I just re-checked shellplate for 10th? time. ANY more clockwise on it, ram will not lower. It is at the point it can't go even a RCH tighter. So if loose shellplate bolt is issue, then something is preventing it from indexing when torqued properly. Disassembled & cleaned real well to - no crud or anything.

The Timken needle bearing is coming tomorrow. Low mass detent ball, spring, & roller bearing index cam block & casefeed cam follower day after. Maybe addition of those will allow shellplate bolt to tighten more, but as it is, it will not.

I wouldn’t suggest changing anything until you figure out how to make it work stock. If you go changing a bunch of stuff before you know how it’s supposed to work, you won’t have any idea what makes it work better or worse.

Remove all the cases from the press and act like you are trying to seat a primer.

Does it look like this?



Notice that mechanically the machine can lift the base of the primer well above the base of the case. Even above the rim itself.



If so, you can clearly see it could be seated well past flush, crushed with enough force would happen. AKA no amount of “shim” is going to get it to seat deeper, without more pressure applied to the handle.

It might be worth running just cases through station #1 and #2 and check them. Once you have primer seating 100%, just remove the size/deprime die from #1 and load away, on your sized and primed cases.

 

[CMV]

I did your 3M shim trick. I thought I hit gold with 5 test cases all at .003" depth, but sadly a longer run resulted mostly flush again. Figured the post it pieces were compressing so tried again with foil tape, but same process. No Joy. If some is good, more is better...so did again with foil tape going to .015" thickness of a shim. Still mostly seating flush.

Tearing into it again...getting whole area spotless, following their lubrication video exactly, & will try again. Per that video instructions, no oil or spray lube or anything - just oil on ram, grease everywhere else they say to grease. But manual is a little vague:



All other moving parts - does that mean under the shell plate, detent ball, etc? I'm leaving them bone dry since the video doesn't address them. Maybe some grease & I can tighten shellplate bolt some more?

 

[CMV]

Yes, mine looks like your pics. When inserting a primer, there would be more forward movement of handle possible if not bottomed out on primer.

Dunno...it inserts primer and compressed it a little. They're .1245" high so must compress some to even get flush. CCI #41 are only .120 tall. You'd think they'd be seating deeper, but pretty much same.

I don't think the primer punch/ram/inserter - whatever you call it - is hitting case. Having no primer in it, I can run it up fully into an empty primer pocket and not hit anything.

Anyway, just measured cases for depth of empty primer pockets. Shallowest were at .116 and deepest were .120. The .116 pockets let the primers seat to .001 below flush. The .120 went to .0015 and .002" depth.

Just going to cross fingers that new punch assembly cures it.

 

[CMV]

What are those? Mine doesn't have them.

 

[jmorris]

What are those? Mine doesn't have them.

On the bottom is where the ball bearing positively stops the shell holder at the correct location. They keep crud from getting in there, if yours doesn’t have them, it’s likely just a blind hole on the bottom side.

 

[CMV]

Oh...mine is smooth. I thought maybe it was another of your cool inventions/upgrades/mods

 

[Nature Boy]

How many times has the brass been fired since the last time you cleaned the primer pockets?

If this was already covered and I missed it please ignore the question

 

[Doublehelix]

Send me a PM with your email address, and I can send you a copy of a cleaning and lubing guide I created for the XL650.

 

[MikeInOr]

I did your 3M shim trick. I thought I hit gold with 5 test cases all at .003" depth, but sadly a longer run resulted mostly flush again. Figured the post it pieces were compressing so tried again with foil tape, but same process. No Joy. If some is good, more is better...so did again with foil tape going to .015" thickness of a shim. Still mostly seating flush.

If you put one of the cases from the 650 with the primer protruding past the bottom of the case in your hand priming tool and try to seat the primer deeper with your hand priming tool does the primer go deeper into the case? You might try several cases and see if it might be a case or case prep issue instead of a 650 press issue.

 

[CMV]

.

 

[CMV]

If you put one of the cases from the 650 with the primer protruding past the bottom of the case in your hand priming tool and try to seat the primer deeper with your hand priming tool does the primer go deeper into the case? You might try several cases and see if it might be a case or case prep issue instead of a 650 press issue.

YES! Anything that is flush or proud I can go to Lee hand prime and it seats it below flush with no problem.

 

[CMV]

How many times has the brass been fired since the last time you cleaned the primer pockets?

If this was already covered and I missed it please ignore the question

Some many times fired, some 1x fired. Tried a lot of 1x fired from Sleeping Giant - stainless pin tumbled, pockets all swaged, stuff looks like jewelry. Stuff I processed just decapped & washed in hot soapy water with lemishine - so it's clean, but minimal primer pocket attention. No difference in results for either batch though.

About the only thing I can say seems more consistent is that military brass generally seats flush where commercial brass seems to want to land at least .002" below flush. Of the military brass, stuff I processed has some crimps removed with a chamfer tool, most done on a Dillon super swage. The Sleeping Giant processed - no idea what they used to remove crimps, but it's better than my super swage. There are exceptions - some commercial seats flush, some military seats .004" depth - so that's a generalization. I am not noticing a difference between brass I know has 4+ loadings on it vs what I know is 1x fired.