650XL primer seating depth

[Strat Rider]

just curious if you have kept track of the headstamps that produce the high primers ?
I saw that the hand primer will seat them deeper afterwards but I'm interested if primer hole diameter is narrower than others.
Also, which primers are you using and does it do this on a variety ?

 

[MikeInOr]

View attachment 824059

CMV, can you post a picture of your press simular to this picture. It might help us help you figure out where the problem is.

 

[CMV]

Sure, when I get home from work tonight I can take some pictures.

 

[CMV]

Here's a bunch of random pics. If you see anything that looks off let me know!!!! The light kit is $15 https://www.amazon.com/Ustellar-Dimmable-Daylight-Lighting-Non-Waterproof/dp/B075RYSHQQ - half the cost of same thing made to fit the press - just cut off excess & flex it around to stick how you want it.

 

[jmorris]

That shows all you need to know. Mechanically your machine can seat deeper than necessary.

 

[Doublehelix]

That shows all you need to know. Mechanically your machine can seat deeper than necessary.

It looks like from that angle that the bottom of the primer is higher than the bottom of the shell plate, which as @jmorris states should be all you need to know. The case lip goes under the shell plate, which is approximately the "zero" point of the primer depth.

Is that picture with the old primer punch, or the new one?

 

[CMV]

Old. New punch has not arrived.

So you guys are saying I'm just a wuss & can't push the handle forward hard enough? Seriously, If I take one off the press and it is flush, I can put it back in station #2 and try to push MUCH harder. The primer does not seat any deeper. Then I can go to hand prime and it will seat to .002 depth. I'm not seeing anything loose/broken/missing (not that I really know what I'm looking at) that would reduce the leverage on forward stroke.

For whatever reason, I'm not compressing primers. A CCI #41 will generally seat same as a Fiocchi SRM even though the CCI are .004-.005" shorter.

Depths of my primer pockets all over the place since mixed brass, but most (8-9 out of 10) are .019". So I'm compressing a CCI .001" at least, a Fiocchi .006". Sorting a lot of all .019" depth primer pockets I still get same results - some seat slightly under flush, some are perfectly flush. That's with both brands of primer. I quit throwing the Wolf SRM in the mix because their height is in between and a 3rd brand in the mix doesn't seem to give any better data.

I can pick up some CCI #400 non-magnum SRP & try those. Maybe harder shell on the magnum primer or taller height? I can't be the first guy in the world to use SRM primers in .223 on a 650 though, so if that's the issue something still wrong.....



@ green stars - all are very tight.

 

[dave333]

Old. New punch has not arrived.

So you guys are saying I'm just a wuss & can't push the handle forward hard enough?
.

I believe that was what I was getting at in the very first response to your question on this thread.

Seriously though, in the 2nd and 5th pics, the overhead views it looks like the primer punch is all the way to the right side of the shell plate, almost like the alignment is off. This may be optical illusion but have you checked the alignment to make sure its spot on and not hanging up on the outside of the case enough to stop the primer arm from going all the way in. If its hitting the outside of the case it wont matter how hard you push the handle, then again the primer probably wouldn't seat if it was that far off in the first place. Sorry, guess Ive got nothing, except pressing the handle even harder.

 

[CMV]

SO just switched everything over to 9mm and CCI #500 primers. Everything seated at least .001" depth, most .003". The occasional .001" depth when followed by hand prime only went to .002". So not a big difference at all, and none have been flush or proud. Again using large assortment of mixed HS.

Then tried Wolf SPP which measure .001" taller. They seated deeper on average, .003-.005" and following with hand prime maybe would show 5 tenths more, but often no movement. Some previously primed brass left over form last 9mm run showed same thing - generally .004-.005" depth, all those were done on hand prime. SO same punch, same weakling right arm (I'm 5'10" 195, 46y/o in good health BTW), can seat 9mm SPP just fine, but not SRM .223.....

hmmmm...... So even if switching to CCI #400 fixed the problem....I'm sitting on 9k SRM total of the 3 brands I have....I'd really like to use those. And I've only ever loaded .223 with SRM....

The only thing I can think of is maybe my .223 shellplate is a little out of spec? If I can't tighten it any more, should I put it on surface grinder and skim .003" off the underside?

The #5 & #3 shellpllates measure about the same. #5 is .2500 thick between all 5 case holders. #3 is .2510 - .2495" between all 5 so it has some slight variation. The depth of the spherical cuts for detent ball are all .216" on #5, .215", .214", .213" so some variation. #5 is brand new, #3 is used, so could just be difference in finish wear or something. Detent ball on spring, so even that one position that's a little different than the others I don't think would matter.

 

[MikeInOr]

It looks to me like the primer ram is not centered on the case. This is adjustable.

The ram is pushing the primer into the case but the ram hits the back of the case before the primer is fully seated. Depending on the taper around the primer hole in the back of the case the primer is seated to different depths.

Look up how to center the primer ram in the middle of the shell plate opening / case being primed and I think all your problems will go away.

I do not know how to perform the proper adjustment for this... but I know it can be done and that it isn't all that difficult. The press was designed to allow for this adjustment if this ever went out of alignment.

P.S. Heavily cover the top of the ram with black or red Sharpie ink. Put a case in the priming station without a primer. Give the press back stroke a really good solid slow push. Is there a cresent of ink around the priming hole in the case where the priming ram is hitting the case?


P.S. The only other possibility is that you are really wimpy... Please post a picture of your bicept. LOL!!!

 

[CMV]

Looks pretty well centered to me. Hard to get pics - any angle of camera makes it look off.






Pretty much like him - I'm just not quite that buff.

 

[MikeInOr]

Going through this logically in my head the only thing the makes sense is that the ram is hitting the back of the case and this fits the problem as described perfectly. I can't envision anything else that would cause the problem you described.

You aren't using the large primer system to seat small primers... are you??? Someone new to the 650xl might not know that there are two priming systems that you have to swap depending on if you are seating large or small primers.

Instead of the primer ram being out of center left to right (which it appears it is not) maybe the priming system is out of center front to back. I see a cresent around the priming ram offset towards the shell plate retaining bolt.... hmmmm.


BTW: great job on the pictures.

Did you try pushing the priming ram into a de-primed case without a primer on the ram? Can you jiggle the case while trying to push the priming ram into the case primer hole and see if you can get the ram considerably farther into the primer hole?

Something really is not adding up here... please post pictures of your wife's / girlfriend's pectorial muscles.

 

[CMV]

That would be quite embarrassing, but I did pull it and check. Compared to the one in the 308 conv kit and I'm definitely using small one.

Here ya go....

 

[MikeInOr]

Seeing the picture... it all makes sense now! LOL!

I am still quite confident the ram is not lining up with the primer hole in the case. With all the press pictures you posted this is really the only thing it can be.

 

[dave333]

Seeing the picture... it all makes sense now! LOL!

I am still quite confident the ram is not lining up with the primer hole in the case. With all the press pictures you posted this is really the only thing it can be.

Should be easy enough to check, just push the handle all the way forward with station 2 empty, then run several deprimed cases through without primers and see if the handle hangs up on any.

 

[CMV]

it does not hang up on empty cases

 

[MikeInOr]

Looking at your top down picture the priming ram needs to be closer to the shell plate retaining bolt. That crescent / moon shape should not be there.

If you pull the case out of the shell plate a smidgen when seating a primer the primer will seat all the way.

 

[MikeInOr]

I remember reading about this a very long time ago. Dillon has some sort of alignment tool they will send you to align the primer ram. Or you can send the press to Dillon and they,will align it for you... no charge... and check out the rest of the press at the same time.

 

[jmorris]

So you guys are saying I'm just a wuss & can't push the handle forward hard enough?

I thought on this, this morning as qualitative terms like “enough” are not very helpful. There are a couple ways you can quantify the operation though.

First thing I would do it take a tape measure and run it from the wall behind the press up to the primer blast shield and push back on the handle like you are seating a primer. If the measurement changes, your press or bench isn’t mounted ridged enough.

Assuming it’s good to go, take a case that you seated a primer with on your hand tool, so it’s good, and put it in station #2 and move the handle back like your seating the primer. Now take your tape measure and run it from the wall back to the handle and lock it in place. Like this.



Now, you know exactly how far back the handle has to go back for a primer to be seated to that depth.

That still didn’t give me any values for “enough” though, just dimensions. So I grabbed a fishing scale and used it to pull back on the handle. Like this.



17lb had the primer right around flush. 25lb had it below flush. It’s important to understand that different primers/cases will change how much force is necessary but now you have a way to measure how much is needed for the components you have.

 

[CMV]

Will try that.

I worried about the bench not being rigid enough/flexing/being a variable. So I added a 3/4" top to the 3/4" top that was there. Both are "edge board" I think is what it's called. Looks like butcher block. But I screwed & glued the addition to laminate it to what was there, then remounted press. Also lag bolted front legs to floor (only rears were before). This is in a 2nd floor carpeted bedroom. So there is still some movement, but pretty solid bench overall.

I set the shell bin to where with no primer, the handle goes forward just enough to contact it - if I wiggle the shell bin, I know there was no primer. But some kind of scale for distance or force might be very useful in this process. I could just make a longer handle which should have same effect as gorilla strength.....

I switched over to 9mm. Those primers (Wolf SPP, CCI #500, & Fiocchi SPP) are all seating below flush. Very few maybe just .0015", but none are perfectly flush, none are proud (except the occasional old primer pulled back in). Until I get more projectiles, I'm done with that - 1500+ with none of the issues I'm seeing with SRM primers on .223.

No tracking or anything for new punch assy that Dillon sent, so think I will just wait on it before going back to .223. Even with all the checking & fixing with hand prime, I've managed 4 cans full of .223 (~2400), so I don't need to run anything right now and can afford lots of downtime to resolve the issue.

Since I chose to NOT follow the advice I was given to leave everything stock before swapping out upgrade parts, I tried the roller bearing cam pin and index block, phenolic detent ball & reduced power spring, and the shellplate needle bearing kit. Was a complete disaster and went back to stock parts. The 2 roller bearing pieces were fine, but the shellplate "upgrade" parts - ball, spring, bearing - just made shell plate not go into position reliably. Tinkered a good while & used mixture of stock and upgrade parts, and nothing worked well. So removed all that mess. Also figured try the brand new ball & spring in spare parts kit, that was same as original ones.

Oh well....I don't see a way to do .223 in one run anyway. Still need a deprime & size process, then trim/chamfer/debur, check/fix crimps, & clean, then load. So adding step to handprime while watching TV (which is what I've done up until now anyway) isn't end of the world. Still faster overall than the LCT if for nothing other than the case feed & final 3 operations happening at once......

 

[jmorris]

But some kind of scale for distance or force might be very useful in this process.

It would be, with enough use you will get the “feel” down and will know if something out of the ordinary occurs.

I also agree that bottle neck rounds are a two pass operation. I size/deprime and trim on the first pass. With the Dillon trimmer 1000/hr is pretty easy.

 

[CMV]

I don't have Dillon trimmer....just the possum hollow you run on a drill. Does dillon one work well? Make a mess? One thing I like about PH is I can do it over large sink or outside and not have brass shavings everywhere

Do you have to follow the dillon trimmer with a chamfer & debur tool? With the PH pretty much have to since it leaves a little burr inside & out. Even stuff not needing trimmed, I need to hit with chamfer tool if using flat base bullet like a vmax or else I get little copper rings & jacket shavings. Little chamfer fixes that right up

 

[MikeInOr]

For the Dillon trimmer you have to have a trim die for each cartridge you want to trim. The trim die full length resizes the case while trimming it. I get very repeatable case lengths with my Dillon trimmer.

I use the vacuum hose hookup and,that catches most all the,mess.

Deburr and champher is pretty much required after trimming.

I love my Dillon case trimmer and often use it on my 650 to take advantage of the case feeder.

 

[jmorris]

As Mike said the spoils are sucked up by the vacuum. I don’t chamfer or debur, if the cut is not clean, it’s time to index the carbide bit.

The biggest downfall would be that it is a very loud process. I wear the same radio ear protection I do when mowing on the tractor when using them.

 

[CMV]

RESOLVED!!!!!

All I had to do was reset the zero on my caliper and they all measure great! J/K...

Kind of resolved anyway. I kept going back to the shellplate torque as many of you said. And I'd tighten it, bind it up, loosen it, repeat over & over. Then was thinking about the drag line between the ball cuts for detent and some wear marks at the edge only between a few shell cutouts on underside....."How can I get more torque if that is the problem?" I kept dwelling on that because only thing that made sense and I could see a correlation of loosening it and even higher primers. But nothing I did fixed it....adding the phenolic ball and reduced power spring, adding the needle bearing, but nothing would allow me to tighten it more- literally even the tiniest amount of additional clockwise movement would bind up the press.

So while cleaning it and tinkering again, I figured I'd try putting a dab of grease on the index pawl and wipe a real light coat on the underside of shellplate (this is with the factory parts in - not the upgrades). Even though the lubrication video or nothing I could find said to lube anything in that area, what could it hurt? Worked great and I could tighten the shellplate bolt more and not bind the machine. So did same process and tightened until I did bind it, then back off just a hair. Not only did the press run exceptionally well for 200 rds without all the random stoppages, it seated the primers very well. .003" depth was worst, most were .006", and some went to .009".

So either you are supposed to grease under the shellplate and I just totally missed that all this time, or something is still wrong, but the little bit of grease is a workaround for now.





Still all sorts of mixed headstamps, military brass, commercial brass, all 3 of my SRM primer brands - it just works now. And I don't feel nearly as bad about all those 7 y/o girls winning arm wrestling matches any longer.....