9MM "SMG" for Home Defense?

[rjrivero]

Or it's perm attached muzzle device that covers the suppressor:

 

[JEB]

i think a 9mm carbine would be a fine choice for HD. low recoil, easy handling, less noise than many other platforms; i say go for it.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

So are you basing your hd round on "over penetration"?

And doesn't every sufficiently powerful round over penetrate?

You don't want to accidentally shoot the neighbors now do we? 5.56 and 5.45 tumble when they hit a target and because of their very high speed and lightweight bullets, they slow down much faster from lack of momentum after passing through something and they deform much more after hitting something because of their size.

 

[JustinJ]

I think many underestimate the flash and sound of a rifle cartridge in a confined space. Assuming your ears still work after firing a 5.56 inside a house you might then get to listen to the smoke detectors going off. Pistol caliber carbines have a very distinct advantage in this regard. .45 out of a 16" barrel is incredibly quiet as would be subsonic 9mm. As far as i'm concerned a 5.56 should be used with a can if fired indoors. The primary danger of using NFA items for HD is mandatory sentencing if somehow your actions are found to be illegal.

 

[Ramone]

I think many underestimate the flash and sound of a rifle cartridge in a confined space. Assuming your ears still work after firing a 5.56 inside a house you might then get to listen to the smoke detectors going off. Pistol caliber carbines have a very distinct advantage in this regard. .45 out of a 16" barrel is incredibly quiet as would be subsonic 9mm. As far as i'm concerned a 5.56 should be used with a can if fired indoors.

Indeed. Even though I am a .45ACP guy by inclination, I tend to recommend the 9mm just for the inexpensive ammo.

The other great advantage to a PPC is that it's going to be far more effective in the hands of person with less firearms experience than a pistol, and far safer as one is much less likely to shoot oneself in the foot with a 16" barrel.

 

[steveracer]

I wouldn't hesitate to use one.
I have a Beretta 9mm Carbine (SBR) with an 11" barrel and supressor. Nothing better inside the house for defense, in my opinion. Accuracy, capacity, light weight, and quiet.

 

[flyskater]

I have a KT Sub 2000 with the G17 magwell, for a HD firearm I think it is quite useful.

I don't trust my sub2k. Very cheaply made. The plastic parts have broken on me 2x already and was replaced by Keltec warranty. Great plinker though.
My choice for HD is my Saiga S12 w/20 round drum, then my Saiga 5.45 then my AR.
Nothing beats a reliability of a Russian.

 

[TITAN308]

You'd likely be better served by an AR-15 in 5.56 instead of a semi-auto MAC clone dressed up like an AR-15.

Proof? I get what your saying, but if you are going to make such claims; its generally good form to provide facts and/or data as to why.

Your comment comes off as fanboy'ish.

 

[Beaux Nehr]

Proof? I get what your saying, but if you are going to make such claims; its generally good form to provide facts and/or data as to why.

Your comment comes off as fanboy'ish.

Macs have terrible, junk triggers.
ARs are proven weapon systems.

What proof, exactly, are you asking for?

You might want to try the new Israeli Uzi Pro. Uses polymers with a six inch barrel and weighs about five pounds. Sounds pretty handy. It's a 9mm, but, is a true sub gun. So, restrictions apply, but would be nice to have around.

Yeah, I'm sure the OP can just swing by an pick up a post '86 gun. He should probably pick up a few phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range too. Great idea.


[/snark]

 

[rjrivero]

Proof? I get what your saying, but if you are going to make such claims; its generally good form to provide facts and/or data as to why.

Your comment comes off as fanboy'ish.

From the "overpenetration" side of the arguement, there is plenty of it. Start HERE.

Flash and bang from a .223 in close quarters is something I'd rather avoid, but from limiting overpenetration, .223 is a pretty good choice.

A fast moving .223 round is a real "neat" round. It'll punch soft body armor and dump it's energy into what lies beyond, penetrates the "required" 13.5" or so in ballistic gel, but looses energy more quickly than handgun rounds when punching through home building materials.

The only real drawback is the loud flash/bang associated with that round especially in closed quarters. A short barrel (7.5") 5.56 was reviewed in a SWAT Magazine Aricle in November 2011 or 2010. I don't remember which year. It's an interesting read if you can dig it up.

If you're alluding to the Platform opinion, well everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[hso]

Unless you're willing to pay the $200 tax on an SBR or that and the price of a real SMG I don't understand the merits of picking a platform that lacks the benefits of a modern intermediate cartridge carbine. A 16-in AR can have almost any caliber for the upper half, all the common features found on them (smoothie anyone?), and at the same or lower price than an SMG replica. Factor in common parts, experienced gunsmiths for anything you can't do yourself watching a video (and that's almost anything with an AR) and the ability to switch calibers between a nearly bewildering array of calibers from the .22lr to the 9mm to the 6.8. BTW, tests we ran with drywall and 2x4 framing showed 9mm (and .45 and 10mm) penetrated more layers of drywall (each separated by 4-in gaps) than 5.56 and 5.45 out of standard 16-in barrels.

Other than "it looks so cool" (and I'm all for that), I don't see a practical argument for it.

 

[Buck Kramer]

Taurus is coming out with what looks like a UMP knockoff, looks kinda cool. It was at the SHOT show this year, heres the link.

http://www.rsrgroup.com/catalog/product/TI90161CTG2

 

[JustinJ]

I've read and heard AR pistol caliber conversions can be finicky. Not to mention my UMP conversion has a folding stock and HK reliability. But no, she wasn't cheap.

 

[mortablunt]

I'll post after I've rested and can think straight. There si no problem with an SMG as an HD weapon. The extra barrel length and ability to have multiple contact points make it better than a handgun.

 

[Skribs]

You know, despite what I've said about PCCs, I do think a UMP/clone in .50 GI would be pretty cool.

 

[Driftertank]

I've said for several years now that i wis HK would quit this USC/SL-8 crap and just build G36 and UMP carbine variants in the states. I personally think a UMP carbine with an integrated suppressor (a la MP5SD) would be a great CQB/HD gun.

 

[elrowe]

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must agree that the defendant's paranoia led to the ambush he set for the victim of this brutal murder with this vicious military weapon that has no purpose in polite society. Clearly, the defendant's intent was to kill this poor young man in the most violent means possible, with blatant disregard for his human rights. You simply must convict this heinous sociopath of cold premeditated murder. The prosecution rests."

Stick with common service-caliber pistols and hunting guns for any intended defense application, it'll make both the criminal and civil cases easier for you if you ever have to use them. Besides that, the anti-gunners will use you as an example to try to pry our tactical guns away from those of us that use them for recreation. It's all about appearances after the shooting stops, keep the "fun guns" in the safe.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I've said for several years now that i wis HK would quit this USC/SL-8 crap and just build G36 and UMP carbine variants in the states. I personally think a UMP carbine with an integrated suppressor (a la MP5SD) would be a great CQB/HD gun.

I would definitely want both.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you must agree that the defendant's paranoia led to the ambush he set for the victim of this brutal murder with this vicious military weapon that has no purpose in polite society. Clearly, the defendant's intent was to kill this poor young man in the most violent means possible, with blatant disregard for his human rights. You simply must convict this heinous sociopath of cold premeditated murder. The prosecution rests."

Stick with common service-caliber pistols and hunting guns for any intended defense application, it'll make both the criminal and civil cases easier for you if you ever have to use them. Besides that, the anti-gunners will use you as an example to try to pry our tactical guns away from those of us that use them for recreation. It's all about appearances after the shooting stops, keep the "fun guns" in the safe.

Oh look, it's that myth again.

 

[JustinJ]

Oh look, it's that myth again.

Its not as outlandish as you might think. I don't have time to look them up but there has been one more more cases in which a prosecutor argued that a defendant carried hollow point ammo because he wished to kill and inflict maximum injury. Of course the counter arguement in either scenario would be to ask if LE uses such ammo or gun because they wish to kill and inflict maximum injury.

 

[Skribs]

Of course the counter arguement in either scenario would be to ask if LE uses such ammo or gun because they wish to kill and inflict maximum injury.

My counterpoint, which I got from this site and I have said numerous times in posts and rhetoric, and I wouldn't have to think about if asked on the stand, is that my goal in any self defense situation is to stop the attack. It's a protective goal.

 

[TITAN308]

Its not as outlandish as you might think. I don't have time to look them up but there has been one more more cases in which a prosecutor argued that a defendant carried hollow point ammo because he wished to kill and inflict maximum injury. Of course the counter arguement in either scenario would be to ask if LE uses such ammo or gun because they wish to kill and inflict maximum injury.

This must be a state by state thing; we don't have this problem in Georgia.

If you come on my property and as soon as you break, kick, tear into something in an attempt to gain entry I can mow you down through the wall and its an open and shut case.

<3 Castle Doctrine

From my understanding not all states have this. So while I won't argue the situation you present is possible, thankfully my state laws pretty much squash that from happening.

Edit: If you are ever subject to a house invasion and must use your firearm, make sure there is only one side of the story to tell. Just saying...

 

[TITAN308]

Taurus has this nifty 9mm PCC - but for the love of god tell me someone out there is making an AR-15 adapter for the rear so we can chop off from the pistol grip back and use an AR pistol grip and butt stock.

Photoshop anyone?



Edit: Here my MSpaint skills to get you started: (looks a ton better already....)

 

[CoRoMo]

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Its not as outlandish as you might think. I don't have time to look them up but there has been one more more cases in which a prosecutor argued that a defendant carried hollow point ammo because he wished to kill and inflict maximum injury. Of course the counter arguement in either scenario would be to ask if LE uses such ammo or gun because they wish to kill and inflict maximum injury.

I actually do remember that case in Arizona but it was a 10mm HP. There was little defense as I recall reading.

Edit: If you are ever subject to a house invasion and must use your firearm, make sure there is only one side of the story to tell. Just saying...

Yep, even if you just wound them with the first shot and they're on the ground, just execute them.

 

[Warp]

I actually do remember that case in Arizona but it was a 10mm HP. There was little defense as I recall reading.

Harold Fish. Yes, it was a 10mm (Glock, IIRC) loaded with JHP and he was attacked by a psycho who had a screwdriver in his pocket, with a history of going psycho.

There was a lot of crud going on with that case. Unfortunately the shooter was found guilty and sent to prison. Fortunately they "fixed" the situation and he is now free, and the law has changed.

Edit: If you are ever subject to a house invasion and must use your firearm, make sure there is only one side of the story to tell. Just saying...

If this were my board I would ban you for suggesting that people commit murder. Just saying...