All you GUN toting Christians...Chime in here

[ExSoldier]

Jesus Christ is the Shepherd. I am one of his sheepdogs:

http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm

I have always been convinced that it is the Christian DUTY for a man to protect his own life, the lives of his family and loved ones and the lives of the sheep of the flock. This long held belief of mine was cemented when I read the book SHOOTING BACK about the terrorist attack on a church in South Africa that was repelled by an armed civilian in church.

I gave the book to my former Pastor at Key Biscayne Presbyterian Church, Steve Brown of Key Life Ministries. He is now a national radio show host for the ministry he founded: Key Life. He LOVED the book and agreed with it 100%. Politically speaking Steve stands just to the right of ... Ghengis Khan. He is also the person most directly responsible for showing me how to have a personal relationship with the God of the universe. The Key Life website:

http://www.keylife.org

Having said that it should be noted that the Presbyterian Church PCA is a splinter group from the larger and much more politically liberal Presbyterian Church USA. PCA split from USA in the late 1960s specifically over the issue of gun control. USA wanted to push that cause from the pulpit and PCA was formed on the sole consideration that a church is supposed to preach the word of God and to help the people of God.

A lot of folks who cry "HYPOCRISY" when speaking of armed Christians loved to trot out a few of the more popular verses from the Bible in the vein of "Turn the other cheek..." or "Do unto others..." and they feel that is some kind of automatic inescapable "trap" for any armed Christian. Got news: NOT! God gave me a number of gifts: He made me a good school teacher with the heart of a teacher, but he gave me a unique perspective on my work that was first filtered through brief careers in the military and in law enforcement. HE also gave me a knack for tactics and shooting. None of those are accidents. Nor would I lay it off on "free will" because HE knew from the moment HE made the world my name and who I would become. Nothing in my life, the good times or the bad, has been accidental. I'm a history teacher and I don't believe in "accidental history" either. Everything happens for a reason. All of history is linked in some way and everything is taking us and this world to a specific destination. I don't think we're "there" yet but I DO thing that the "end" so to speak is in sight.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

230RN said:

Just as an example which brushes the concept I bring up:

I wondered if, while acting in pure defense, stopping (perhaps even killing) the aggressor might save the agressor from committing the sin of murdering you (or your family).

What are the spiritual implications for the aggressor?

Well, Jesus said if a man looked at a woman lustfully, he had already committed adultery with her.

If a man is trying to kill you, he's probably already committed murder in his heart. A murderer often intends to kill someone before he acts in a physical way. That's bad.

God is the final judge of people's souls and dispositions, of course, but in a lethal self-defense situation, you may have just ensured that the bad guy died with an entirely unrepentant soul.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[dsoine]

My best friend (a Pastor ) and I were talking about other Christians coming up to you and questioning your need to ccw or your need to even own a firearm.
How you should turn the other cheek and use the famous line " Live by the sword die by the sword" also retelling the story of Peter slicing another mans ear off. Everything can be dealt with by delegating etc etc.


Was wondering if you Christian guys who own fire arms deal with other Christians who question you?

First off - I take it that your friend hasn't really put much time in seeking wisdom on this issue, and hasn't studied what the Bible says about it (by that I mean all of the Word that God gave to us, not just the New Testament, the what Jesus said, or some other subset. OT and NT). For that reason - you need to be careful about anything this person is trying to teach you, your family, or others. (This should be done with any teaching of any pastor, of course, on all subjects. )

Where does your friend's thinking take him/her? Should a Christian LEO quit and do something else? Should a Christian member of the military resign or leave the military? What would be the result of that? Would _everyone_ be better off...I don't think so. In fact, where lethal force is concerned, we really do want the most God-Fearing, tending-toward-merciful, righteous, justice and equity loving individuals.

...because some thoughtful reading will show that God is concerned about justice, fairness, equity as well as mercy. This applies to local officials and "kings". And it applies to me. How much reading of the Word does it take for that to be clear? Try Proverbs for starters.

So standing aside and allowing a killer to continue a rampage - or start one - is not just, is not loving (if we consider the long-term effects on everyone), is not righteous, is not moral.

As those here know...responsible use of lethal force demands self control, humility, clear thinking...all of the ideas contained in "Godly character" that I am trying hard to put on.

I have some other thoughts & logic on this but not enough time to keep typing now.

Thanks to all that have supported this thread.

Good luck,

Dave

 

[dsoine]

I realize now that I only dealt with "justification of lethal force" and not "why did I take on this responsibility?" when I replied above.

I take it up because I have (really God has given me) the means, I have training, I am authorized by the state, and it appears to me to be in the best interest of everyone. It is one way for me to "step up" in a world where justice and righteousness are not well understood.

best,

Dave

 

[abrink]

Bring up Luke 22:36
"...he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

 

[Ala Dan]

I think by GOD giving us the capability of "proper mind set", he meant for it to
be taken as GOD expects us to defend ourselves to the n'th degree~!

Otherwise, he would not have given us the "tools" too do so~! :banghead:

 

[rbernie]

I know of no religion that elevates and praises being a victim.

 

[walking arsenal]

" Live by the sword die by the sword"

Those who do not live by the sword can still die by them.


Anyways.

Somewhere in the book it says not to test the lord.

I believe not defending yourself and seeing if the lord will do it for you is testing.

good enough for me.

 

[lee n. field]

PCA split from USA in the late 1960s specifically over the issue of gun control.

Say what?! News to me. Can you cite sources?

 

[btg3]

For those not familiar with how the Methodist church is positioned, this quote is from http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?ptid=4&mid=937

(5) support federal legislation to regulate the importation, manufacturing, sale, and possession of guns and ammunition by the general public. Such legislation should include provisions for the registration and licensing of gun purchasers and owners, appropriate background investigation and waiting periods prior to gun purchase, and regulation of subsequent sale;

(6) call upon all governments of the world in which there is a United Methodist presence to establish national bans on ownership by the general public of handguns, assault weapons, automatic weapon conversion kits, and weapons that cannot be detected by traditionally used metal-detection devices;

 

[LWGN]

For those not familiar with how the Methodist church is positioned

And let us not forget that Hillary Clinton is a Methodist, even if she is a non-hunter who hunts.

LWGN

 

[JWarren]

Quote:
For those not familiar with how the Methodist church is positioned

And let us not forget that Hillary Clinton is a Methodist, even if she is a non-hunter who hunts.

I've no interest in denoucing any particular denomination. However, I will say this...

I was raised Methodist.

Years ago, I sent a letter to our Bishop regarding the church's financial support of anti-gun groups. The reply? In very kind words, I was told to basically go screw myself.

I never gave a nickel to them again.

I am Baptist by denomination now, and I no longer attend a church that my family helped build.


-- John

 

[btg3]

Me too... raised in a Methodist church and now Baptist (independent).

I commend you for making what must have been a difficult decision to leave your family church and stand on your convictions.

As a young adult I was in a Methodist church that did not pay the full apportionment to the Methodist organization because we objected to a number of their political views - - just told 'em nicely to go ... fly a kite -- year after year. The minister was and is very successful, and stands for what he believes.

Often, the politics of the denomination have little to do with the local church, because many just like to "do church" and have no idea what they're underwriting -- if they give at all. My dad was both an NRA life member and a life-long member of the Methodist church -- though in later years grew less comfortable with that denomination.

 

[sacp81170a]

I am a Christian first, not a Baptist, not an Episcopalian, Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran or whatever. I was raised Baptist, but have gotten over it. To those who argue against Christians carrying guns using scriptural references, I refer them to the Holocaust. If it wasn't the duty of Christians (mostly unfulfilled) to stop the slaughter (Remember the Good Samaritan? Weren't those people being slaughtered someone's neighbors?) then whose was it? Jeff Cooper said it best: "An unarmed man may only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."

There are things that are true even if the scripture makes no reference to them at all. The very people who recite scripture against guns at you are the very people who rant and rave against the Biblical literalists who believe the world is only 6,000 years old. Not saying what is true or untrue about someone's beliefs, only that if they're going to remove the mote from my eye the should first remove the beam that's in theirs.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Jeff Cooper said it best: "An unarmed man may only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."

I have to disagree with Cooper on this one. (And a lot of others. I think he was dead-on about the CZ-75 being one of the most under-rated pistols.) : )

People can confront and overcome evil in as many ways as good can be manifested. Miguel Pro, Raoul Wallenberg, Harriet Tubman (who carried a mean hogleg, incidentally) Maximilian Kolbe, and others, all confronted evil very effectively. Some gave their lives for having done so. But they proved violence is not the only way to overcome evil.

An armed threat is probably best countered with arms, yes. But you cannot overcome evil with violence alone. Only goodness can defeat evil itself. And evil isn't a thing in itself. Evil is non-being: the absence of a good that should be there. Similarly, darkness is merely the absence of light. Darkness only has existence in its relation to light.


-Sans Authoritas

 

[btg3]

PCA split from USA in the late 1960s specifically over the issue of gun control.

from Wikipedia...
According to the PCA's official website, it "separated from the PCUS in opposition to the long-developing theological liberalism which denied the deity of Jesus Christ and inerrancy and authority of Scripture." Additionally, the PCA espoused a complementarian interpretation of Scripture regarding the matter of women in church offices, excluding them from the offices of elder and deacon, whereas the PCUS had begun accepting the ordination of women over a decade earlier. According to PC(USA) author Rick Nutt, a less explicitly stated motive that was likely also influential in some quarters was the dissatisfaction with the PCUS's general opposition to the Vietnam War and support of the civil rights movement and the Equal Rights Amendment.[3]

Additionally, PCA is less accepting of homosexuality.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

OK, while this thread was started with good intentions, it has spawned a host of copycat threads which had to be deleted or closed.

This moderator is tired of chasing them down.

We're done here.