Another no-knock warrant and cover up

[coloradokevin]

I'm just pointing out that he's not pure as the driven snow, and most likely not the victim most of you believe he is. I'm betting he's convicted. Of course then I'm sure that many here will think he's been framed.

I've been in my share of meth houses. 2 scales, other paraphernalia, baggies (as I said before, only interesting if they have the corners torn out), Meth bought from the residence, right now given the limited facts we have, I'd say it's pointing to a conviction.

You live a criminal lifestyle or hang with those who do, don't be surprised when you're splattered with the filth. Ingle should thank whatever God he believes in that he's still breathing.

I was especially touched with the part of the Arkansas Times article where I believe his sister said he never intended to hurt anyone because he pointed a broken gun at the officers. Like they were supposed to know it was a broken gun.

I think you guys have picked the wrong case to be outraged over.

Yeah, I agree. Typical responses in this thread.

Nothing short of the substance itself will satisfy some folks that an item is in-fact drug paraphernalia.

I mean, hell, the burned out glass tube that was designed to hold the little plastic trinket flower, which is now stuffed with burned copper brillo. Well, that's just a silly coincidence. The piece of wire in the same pocket with it couldn't possibly be a push rod!

Dear god, we're framing everyone.

But, hey, they weren't his pants anyway...




Heck, I'm not even trying to comment on whether or not this incident was legitimate. Even the source cited is biased. But, any way you slice it, some folks on here would label it a conspiracy, a cover-up, or the like, regardless of what really happened.

For instance, typical views would follow as such:

1) If I found contraband during a consent search, the search must have been coerced.

2) If I participate in a no-knock warrant, I must have done it to "intimidate the public", and for no other good reasons

3) If I find drug paraphernalia, I must have been trying to pin a BS charge on someone (despite getting many a crack-pipe conviction in court out of arrests that occurred off of the little crack corner in my city).

4) If I wrote the warrant, I must have lied to get it signed by a judge.

5) If we shoot someone and their gun isn't loaded, we must have known that (granted, not many folks on this board would buy that line... but it has been used in other officer involved shootings by other folks).

But, I digress.

 

[MIL-DOT]

OK, points taken,Kevin. But i've noticed you tend to do the same thing, from the opposite perspective : AlWAYS giving the cops the benefit of the doubt.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

radly balko has a bias? say it isn't so!
he accidently included the interesting facts as attactments rather than enumerate them as he is wont to do with those feacts that support his mission.


a question how many of the heros of the revolution here have been swat raided?

 

[TallPine]

Nothing short of the substance itself will satisfy some folks that an item is in-fact drug paraphernalia.

Since I don't mess with dope, I would have no idea what might be considered paraphenalia. Though one former supposedly LEO poster on THR said that empty coffee cans were evidence of illegal drugs.

The other issue is that if police do raid the wrong house, it would be rather tempting for them to find "something" to justify it after the fact.

Ingle should get some sort of stupidity award for attempting to defend himself with a "broken gun"

 

[TCB in TN]

Nothing short of the substance itself will satisfy some folks that an item is in-fact drug paraphernalia.

Well forgive me for being so innocent, but IF this guys house was being used to Cook and sell meth then I was under the impression that there would be actual drug residue there, if not actual DRUGS there. Now my local Sherrif has come around on multiple occasions and done his little meth seminar and has mentioned that the chemicals most often used in cooking meth create air born toxins that stay imbedded in the building structure and that these toxins make the home unsafe to live in for the rest of us. In fact most of the meth houses around here seem to end up condemmed. So if it was being cooked there then surely there would be SOME sign of actual drugs. So yes in this case it would sure seem that actual drugs should be found.

I mean, hell, the burned out glass tube that was designed to hold the little plastic trinket flower, which is now stuffed with burned copper brillo. Well, that's just a silly coincidence. The piece of wire in the same pocket with it couldn't possibly be a push rod!

Well is the burned out glass tube has drug residue then hey, fry the guy, he's guilty, but if it doesn't then what does that really say?

1) If I found contraband during a consent search, the search must have been coerced.

After having watched and read some accounts of some searches I would agree. In other situations I would say that it was a good search. It all depends upon how it is conducted!

2) If I participate in a no-knock warrant, I must have done it to "intimidate the public", and for no other good reasons

If you are pulling out the swat team to search a dime bag dealers pad, of some other subject who has not shown a proclivity towards violence, or if you are pulling out the dynamic entry group when you have other options such as "waiting until the subject exits the premises" before conducting the search, then yes, I might come to that conclusion. If you are conducting a search or trying to apprehend a known violent felon, or a drug house with an armed crew defending it, then I say a no knock dynamic entry search if certainly in order.

3) If I find drug paraphernalia, I must have been trying to pin a BS charge on someone (despite getting many a crack-pipe conviction in court out of arrests that occurred off of the little crack corner in my city).

If the crack-pipe has crack residue in it then hey, good job! If not then you are convicting someone on what they might do, and you are just wrong!

4) If I wrote the warrant, I must have lied to get it signed by a judge.

Well did you? I ask because what we are seeing brought to light more and more often is that a scum bag gets pinched for something and then rats on someone who "might" have done something. Then SB#1 gets a pass, and w/o any other evidence someone gets raided. Or did you fluff out the warrent when the actual info you got was a bit sketchy? If you do either then well yes I think you basicly lied! If you really did check things out then hey, my thanks, and good job! But if you really check things out then many of these "mistaken" raids would not be happening!

5

) If we shoot someone and their gun isn't loaded, we must have known that (granted, not many folks on this board would buy that line... but it has been used in other officer involved shootings by other folks).

No, if someone points a gun at you then you have NO way of knowing that it is not loaded, but then again the innocent guy who's house you just no-knocked and killed didn't know you really were police! See he can't help it that his address is 3147 3rd Ave, and your real bad guys are at 3127 west 3rd street! As a regular Joe, if I make a mistake then an apology usually works to set things right, but Mr. LEO when you make a mistake like this an apology can't give an innocent man his life back! I am sorry but you don't get to make mistakes like that and get a pass!

 

[MechAg94]

I agree with Tallpine on that one. I have never smoked dope or done any sort of illegal drug. Rarely ever took prescription medication of any kind. Exactly what is considered drug paraphernalia and why would it be conclusive proof of guilt? Is there is a list somewhere?

If an officer can testify that he bought drugs at the house, wouldn't he have to testify from whom he bought them? Would that automatically make the homeowner guilty? I guess I am a little surprised that is all it takes to get a jury to convict.


On entries, my first concern with dynamic entry is that proper prior planning be done to identify the house and insure the entry can and is done as safely as possible. That main one that comes to mind is that example of those officer who shot the old lady in Atlanta. They were trying to do a dynamic entry and ran smack into burglar bars and had to take the time to cut them and making all sorts of noise. Other examples are out there where officers went to the wrong address.

That sort of sloppy planning and awareness is probably the first thing that gets under people's skin and sets them off on the rest of it.

 

[Art Eatman]

"Exactly what is considered drug paraphernalia and why would it be conclusive proof of guilt? Is there is a list somewhere?"

Mech, in any manufacturing process of any sort, each type will use common equipment, certain materials. I'm not in touch with the world of meth-making, but I read that certain items are common. It's the A + B + C and so on, all together in a location, that indicates what's going on.

You know these spring-loaded hair clip dealies that women use to hold their hair as it dries and sets? If you see a guy with one, and the steel is sorta brownish, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt he's using it as a roach clip to get the last goodie from a marijuana cigarette.

Lots of legitimate needs for flat-pan scales; I had a setup when I was dealing in junk silver. But if you see the scales and a bunch of baggies in a room, along with some roach clips and a bong, you can pretty well figure that somebody's ouncing out pounds of Mary Jane.

But if you haven't been around druggies, and if you're not a cop, there's a bunch of info that's not in the daily paper...

Art

 

[Erik]

"I don't know about the statistics for "No Knocks" preserving the safety of LEOs..."

Not just LEOs. Everyone, but particularly the bad guys.

"...there needs to be come serious oversite and consequences for those situations where the LEO's fail to either do their research or where they falsify info etc."

Agreed.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

pretend not to notice this!!

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2008/05/08/tesler_0509_web.html

A former Atlanta police officer testified Thursday that narcotics officers routinely lied under oath when seeking search warrants” a practice that led to police killing a 92-year-old woman.

Former Detective Gregg Junnier told a Fulton County jury that detectives would tell judges that they had verified their informants had bought cocaine from dealers by searching them for drugs before the buy took place.

"I have never seen anyone searched before they go into the house ” I've never seen that done” even though officers always swear to it," Junnier said. "It's done that way in 90 percent of the warrants that are written."

And especially DO NOT notice this one!
http://www.nbc10.com/news/16192228/detail.html?dl=headlineclick

No criminal charges will be filed against two police officers who accidental shot a South Jersey toddler after a gun went off in his home. The shooting happened when his father, a Deptford Township police officer, and another officer were cleaning their firearms. No criminal charges will be filed against either man, officials said.

An investigation determined the other officer was negligent in handling his weapon. He was suspended without pay. The boy's father, however, is back on duty.

It just does no good to contemplate what would happen to one of us mere civilians in a case like this one. It just does no good at all. Even when the officer had an ND, he meant well!!! You can't second guess him unless you were in his shoes!!!

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Jeff and Kevin

Perhaps, just maybe, and I of course don't know because I have never been a cop, and therefor have no valid opinion, but maybe....

Just maybe cases like the above are why mere civilians have suspicious attitudes toward the "only ones professional enough" like yourselves.

PR

 

[Sans Authoritas]

And it was amazing to see all the "few bad apples" in an entire police department suddenly materialize, then converge and maniacally kick the tar out of a man they pulled out of a car in Baltimore.

It couldn't be something inextricably linked to the nature of the job as it stands now, no. It's just a "few bad apples."

The only thing Proficient and I are "bashing" is this kind of behavior, and pointing to the fact that it is not isolated and rare, and that it is linked to the nature of the job as it stands now. There is something about the apple barrel that is conducive to the attraction, sustainment and creation of bad apples. Do you refuse to acknowledge that?

You don't hear about barbers suddenly going crazy and chopping off the ears of the clients who insult them and make them angry. But you do hear about police officers becoming enraged and losing it because someone drove a little too far (in their estimation) before they stopped for the very official blinky lights. Or because they tried to "evade arrest."

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone parrot, "That's what you get for running from the police," when someone is beaten, hit by a car, or shot in the back while fleeing. Their worship of regulations and their absolute enforcement have blinded them into believing that the death penalty is a just punishment for the mere act of running from police. They do not believe this is a just punishment only in the cases where those who flee put others at risk in the process, but in all cases.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Sage of Seattle]

PR, SA, very well said.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Art Eatman wrote:

You know these spring-loaded hair clip dealies that women use to hold their hair as it dries and sets? If you see a guy with one, and the steel is sorta brownish, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt he's using it as a roach clip to get the last goodie from a marijuana cigarette.

Lots of legitimate needs for flat-pan scales; I had a setup when I was dealing in junk silver. But if you see the scales and a bunch of baggies in a room, along with some roach clips and a bong, you can pretty well figure that somebody's ouncing out pounds of Mary Jane.

I've never watched a video of anyone being unnecessarily kicked or beaten with clubs by a group of potheads.

Though I've never used any non-prescription or non OTC drug myself, I've known a few potheads. A harmless lot. The only harm they seemed to sustain were reduced intelligence and a case of terminal giggles.

We really need to reconsider our priorities in who should be arrested and thrown in prison.

The club-wielders and drunks are far more violent. Should you punish a drunk for buying alcohol, the state of being drunk, or just perhaps, for the dangerous or violent act he performs while he is drunk? Think about it.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Ergosphere]

Could coloradokevin or another LEO please answer this question for me? Thanks...

I understand that state laws vary, but... what exactly is required in order to arrest or convict someone for possession of drug paraphernalia? I'm not asking if you would arrest someone for these items; I'm asking if the law, interpreted by an aggressive DA, would allow for such an arrest and prosecution.

Would my zip-lock bags in the kitchen (for food) and cheap digital scale (for reloading) be sufficient? What about the syringe (no needle) which is used to inject water into a device that regulates the humidity in a guitar case?

Or would it require possession of something essentially unique to the use or dealing of illicit drugs?

 

[Jeff White]

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2008/05/08/tesler_0509_web.html

http://www.nbc10.com/news/16192228/detail.html?dl=headlineclick

Proficient Rifleman,
Please explain how these cases are relevant to the case under discussion?

I could certainly fill a thread with links of cases where civilians, including CCW holders did stupid and criminal things. But that doesn't make me suspicious of everything one does.

Right now the facts that we know about the case under discussion in this thread don't lend themselves to the belief that there was any kind of police misconduct.

Are you ready to accuse the detective who applied for the warrant of perjury? And if you are, what proof do you have?

If you read the report of what was seized and where it was found it is consistent with drugs being sold from that residence. Either Ingle was involved in the sale of meth (a scale and baggies were found in his jeep) or it occurred there with his his knowledge and presumed consent.

If you want to put a stop to no knock raids, I suggest you quit whining about the police on THR and get involved politically to end the war on drugs. You have a lot of work to do because your friends and neighbors are most likely willing to give up even more of their constitutional rights to keep the person down the block from lighting up a joint.

Sans Authoritas said;

I've never watched a video of anyone being unnecessarily kicked or beaten with clubs by a group of potheads.

Though I've never used any non-prescription or non OTC drug myself, I've known a few potheads. A harmless lot. The only harm they seemed to sustain were reduced intelligence and a case of terminal giggles.

We really need to reconsider our priorities in who should be arrested and thrown in prison.

The club-wielders and drunks are far more violent. Should you punish a drunk for buying alcohol, the state of being drunk, or just perhaps, for the dangerous or violent act he performs while he is drunk? Think about it.

Your fight is with the politicians who made that conduct illegal, not with those whose job it is to enforce the laws.

End the so called war on drugs and you'll find that this problem will go away.

Jeff - awaiting proof of police misconduct in this case.

 

[Old Dog]

I've never watched a video of anyone being unnecessarily kicked or beaten with clubs by a group of potheads.

Though I've never used any non-prescription or non OTC drug myself, I've known a few potheads. A harmless lot. The only harm they seemed to sustain were reduced intelligence and a case of terminal giggles.

So just how does this thread drift from a case stemming from a warrant for alleged methamphetamine dealing to the benign characteristics of pot-smokers? Just askin' ...

Or would it require possession of something essentially unique to the use or dealing of illicit drugs?

Absent any residue of the drug in question, or precursors for the drug's manufacture (i.e., substantial amounts of psuedo-ephedrine present or proof that it'd been present -- empty packaging that be excessive to treat a few hundred families' hay fever problems or some of the other common chemicals needed for production), actual witnesses would be required to make the case ...

This, then, is quite the statement, from the aptly pseudonymous "Sans Authoritas" too:

There is something about the apple barrel that is conducive to the attraction, sustainment and creation of bad apples.

Whew, let's get this straight: the nature of police work creates all those mean, club-wielding, hot-pursuit fanatics and wrong-door-kickers? Should this even require an attempt at rebuttal? Ah, I think not (it's gettin' late, anyway) ...

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone parrot, "That's what you get for running from the police," when someone is beaten, hit by a car, or shot in the back while fleeing. Their worship of regulations and their absolute enforcement have blinded them into believing that the death penalty is a just punishment for the mere act of running from police. They do not believe this is a just punishment only in the cases where those who flee put others at risk in the process, but in all cases.

Ah, yes, another psychic, capable of understanding the mindset of every cop ever involved in a vehicle pursuit in this country. Too bad you have not kept up on the widespread changes (durn lawyers, trying keep those lawsuits down) in most agencies' pursuit policies over the past many years (which have robbed far too many adrenalin-fueled cops of the fun they used to enjoy chasing down those poor unfortunates trying to avoid a $166 ticket) ...

 

[TallPine]

If you want to put a stop to no knock raids, I suggest you quit whining about the police on THR and get involved politically to end the war on drugs. You have a lot of work to do because your friends and neighbors are most likely willing to give up even more of their constitutional rights to keep the person down the block from lighting up a joint.

The problem is that the only people who want to end the War On People Using Some Drugs are those "pot smoking libertarian types living in their mom's basement"

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Jeff:

Proficient Rifleman,
Please explain how these cases are relevant to the case under discussion?

The point I was trying to make was about attitude and point of view.

I said,

Just maybe cases like the above are why mere civilians have suspicious attitudes toward the "only ones professional enough" like yourselves.

You SEEM TO have an unconditional support for any police action. You SEEM TO take criticism of said actions as "cop bashing".

Referring to those two news stories were an attempt to illustrate why we (mere civilians) sometimes look with incredulity on incidents where overzealousness appears to raise its ugly head.

If we "civilians" happen to notice, then we get a face full of "how dare you?"

The two news stories are indicators. They are indicators that a mere "civilian" like my self dares to notice along the way.

I say again, cases such as the ones I posted above tend to cast a shadow on your shiny armor, and tend to reduce the willingness of us "mere civilians" to grant you "only ones" Carte Blanche.

And, since "cop bashing" is a broad brush stroke, from under which healthy criticism may never arise, I have reverted to my new mantra...

Submit! Comply! Be passive! The Cops are ALWAYS right!

Stick your heads back in the sand, sheeple, you can't win.

 

[Art Eatman]

PR, at one time or another--and usually several times each--the LEOs on this board have spoken quite eloquently against LEO idiocies.

No pattern of wrongdoing by police can continue for any length of time unless it's tacitly allowed by both the higher administrative officials in a department and by the local elected officials. Both groups have some amount of awareness, but choose to do nothing.

The problem can only be ended by citizen action to use the vote to make a change--with all the activism that such effort requires.

I've travelled around a lot of this country in the fifty years since I got out of the Army. I've had the occasional minor interactions with cops in various states and cities. Overall, granting a few exceptions, I believe there is more professionalism now than "back then". It seems to improve, year by year.

Art

 

[ProficientRifleman]

thank you

No pattern of wrongdoing by police can continue for any length of time unless it's tacitly allowed by both the higher administrative officials in a department and by the local elected officials. Both groups have some amount of awareness, but choose to do nothing.

I agree completely.

The problem can only be ended by citizen action to use the vote to make a change--with all the activism that such effort requires.

I agree again. The effort will not begin until attitudes begin to change, and attitudes will not change until large numbers of folks are aware of such incidents as the one under discussion. Discussing it IS doing something!

I've travelled around a lot of this country in the fifty years since I got out of the Army. I've had the occasional minor interactions with cops in various states and cities. Overall, granting a few exceptions, I believe there is more professionalism now than "back then". It seems to improve, year by year.

As have I (traveled). I agree (professionalism) for the most part. I will, however, continue to state my opinion, in cases such as the one discussed here, that the militarization of our Civilian Police agencies is NOT a good thing.

I enjoy THR. I greatly enjoy a spirited and logical debate, and I am man enough to admit when someone has a more logical argument. But, if healthy criticism is not welcome here, I will not post on topics such as this anymore.

If that is the case, perhaps my new mantra is fitting.

 

[Art Eatman]

Militarization doesn't seem to fit the thread title.

"I greatly enjoy a spirited and logical debate, and I am man enough to admit when someone has a more logical argument."

Well, there's your problem. You're looking for logic throughout discussions. You'll note that most generally when a moderator chimes in, the response is all too often to a post with little or no logic.

"But, if healthy criticism is not welcome here, I will not post on topics such as this anymore."

Healthy criticism is quite welcome, so long as it's reasonably accurate and not the bashing of the "all cops are evil" style which apparently is the belief of a few.

My own view is that somewhere north of ninety-some percent of all cops are pretty good folks. I say that in spite of a neighboring county's sheriff doing life without parole for his part in a cocaine deal involving a metric ton of pure goody, and my being instrumental in forcing the resignation of a Texas Ranger some twenty years ago.

Art

 

[Nate C.]

"I've never watched a video of anyone being unnecessarily kicked or beaten with clubs by a group of potheads. "


Maybe, but the economic forces created by the marijuana trade damn sure have resulted in a few deaths. Look at what's going on in Nuevo Laredo and Juarez, and in Sinaloa in the last year or so.

 

[yinyangdc]

It's not the trade that caused the deaths, it's the illegalization. If it was legal those problems would go away. Take the money out of drugs, you will take away the violence. We are driving the wrong behavior.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Yinyangdc nailed it. You might say the same thing about crime linked to prohibition in the 20's, Nate C.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Sans Authoritas wrote:

I've never watched a video of anyone being unnecessarily kicked or beaten with clubs by a group of potheads.

Though I've never used any non-prescription or non OTC drug myself, I've known a few potheads. A harmless lot. The only harm they seemed to sustain were reduced intelligence and a case of terminal giggles.

Old dog wrote:

So just how does this thread drift from a case stemming from a warrant for alleged methamphetamine dealing to the benign characteristics of pot-smokers? Just askin' ...

Art Eatman brought up pot-smokers, and it sounded like he thought such people should be thrown in prison. That is what I responded to.


Sans Authoritas wrote:

There is something about the apple barrel that is conducive to the attraction, sustainment and creation of bad apples.

Old Dog wrote:

Whew, let's get this straight: the nature of police work creates all those mean, club-wielding, hot-pursuit fanatics and wrong-door-kickers? Should this even require an attempt at rebuttal? Ah, I think not (it's gettin' late, anyway) ...

Old Dog, do you deny that people doing certain things changes who they are in a particular and predictable way? Have you never witnessed the phenomenon of an otherwise tolerable person who was put in a position of power and proved himself utterly incapable of handling it wisely?

I don't think that many New Orleans cops or the National Guard dreamed, when they first joined the Force, that they would be going door to door and taking innocent civilians' firearms by force or threat thereof. They doubtless had some vague notion that they would be "serving their community," and never stopped to consider what "serving one's community" really entails, until they gradually started believing that whatever they did qua police or National Guard was de facto "serving the community." It is a logical fallacy, but an attitude that you see every day.

"Being a cop" becomes such a habit of thinking that "what is just" often falls by the wayside, forgotten. "Being a cop" and "doing what is just" are not always, or even usually, synonymous.

Sans Authoritas

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone parrot, "That's what you get for running from the police," when someone is beaten, hit by a car, or shot in the back while fleeing. Their worship of regulations and their absolute enforcement have blinded them into believing that the death penalty is a just punishment for the mere act of running from police. They do not believe this is a just punishment only in the cases where those who flee put others at risk in the process, but in all cases.

Old Dog wrote:

Ah, yes, another psychic, capable of understanding the mindset of every cop ever involved in a vehicle pursuit in this country. Too bad you have not kept up on the widespread changes (durn lawyers, trying keep those lawsuits down) in most agencies' pursuit policies over the past many years (which have robbed far too many adrenalin-fueled cops of the fun they used to enjoy chasing down those poor unfortunates trying to avoid a $166 ticket) ...

If you'll read my statement again, you will see that it did not refer to the motivation behind every cop's actions under the influence of adrenaline. It referred to the average Joe who is pleased to see that someone got hit by a car, or beaten, or shot in the back, merely because they were "running from the police." The common man has a blind support for those whom they see as "upholding truth and justice." Blind support is dangerous. Especially when the person does not recognize they are blind.

-Sans Authoritas