Another Story of Gun Stores

[sierrabravo45]

To give you a little background, I work part time at a gun store (and as some of you might know have seen it all) I thought the same thing until yesterday.

A guy and his son walk up to the Gun Counter (guy is mid to late 40's maybe early 50's, kid is around 11 or 12.) This is a normal occurrence.

The guy wants to see the "BEST" gun for self defense, or home protection. I asked if he had any experience with firearms, and he said he was familiar with them since he was in the Army. (At this point stuff still wasn't sitting right for some reason, and I knew something else was going on, mostly body language or a sixth sense. LOL) Even knowing about his "Army Experience" didn't have much faith, so I grabbed a S&W revolver with a shrouded hammer. I discussed the features on the gun, and handed it to him, and he looked it over and set it on the counter. Before I could react, his kid grabs the gun and wants to hold it. Not asking permission, or anything, just grabs the gun. I nicely took it away from him, (asking). The father didn't seem to care what the kid was doing with the gun which reaffirmed the lack of knowledge. (No problem, I like to give information to customers.)

I asked him again why he was looking for a gun. Then the story comes out. He was burglarized twice (about a couple weeks ago being the second time.) And he wanted a gun to protect himself. I said most robberies of the home the owners aren't there, so a gun might not help. Oh he was there both times though. Ok, I thought maybe he should have a gun.

I then asked if the person or people kicked down his door, broke a window or how they got in.

He said "I DON'T LOCK MY DOOR". They opened the door and came in!!!!

Was he serious??????

I asked him if he was serious. Yep he was. He just Leaves his door unlocked???? He said he left it unlocked all the time, when he was gone, at night, whenever.

I then went over basics for safety such as maybe a deadbolt, maybe just locking your basic door. I went over a couple different locks that are harder to pick or get into and even discussed reinforcing the door frame. I then thought how does his help when you don't LOCK the door!

I told him locking doors and a deadbolt was a good start.

Did that work, nope. He wanted a shotgun, I showed him a couple of shotguns.

What I was really concerned about was he said he lived in a townhouse. I was thinking the whole time, of bullet penetration going through walls because of improper training or practice and hurting a IB.

I then discussed Bear Mace as a deterrent. It will work great, put a hurt on somebody without much damage to yourself or house (Besides clearing it out) and will stop an intruder.

He left without buying a gun (I was thankful) I was really more worried about his son getting the gun and hurting himself. (I also discussed a coded safe that pops open for easy access to the gun when needed but safe storage when he wasn't there).

I don't know what some of your opinions are on this. I just think that people always don't need a gun. Him locking the doors would have saved him.

I know some of us live in places where you still can leave your doors unlocked and your house will be perfectly safe. Some of us don't. But you would think if you left your house unlocked and got robbed twice you might think to change your habits!

 

[whitetiger7654]

Also isn't there a law stating that if you own guns you have to take steps to prevent them from falling in the wrong hands kids included? If he can't lock a door I think it's an accident waiting to happen.

 

[Neocode]

I know in Florida I am legally liable if my firearms fall into the hands of a minor and there is an accident.

I have a 7 yr old. I satisfy his curiosity by letting him look at my weapon when he wants, but he knows he needs to ask so I can make sure it's empty. I have also taught him the rules, and he does very well. He has shot my .45, although it's a bit much for him and he knows it.

I couldn't ever leave my weapon unattended. I'd worry to much about it.

 

[qlajlu]

sierrabravo45, I think your intuition was spot on. Kudos to you. You may have saved that man years and years of court proceedings and someone's life. That man is an Accidental or Negligent Discharge waiting to happen. I'm sure his neighbors thank you too.

 

[Leanwolf]

SIERRABRAVO45 - "... I know some of us live in places where you still can leave your doors unlocked and your house will be perfectly safe."

S.B.45, I do not believe such a place exists in the United States.

Of course, there are certain areas where there is less crime than others, but anyone who thinks that bad guys don't get out into rural areas, are sadly mistaken, and living in denial.

With the freeway and interstate highway systems, the gazillion smaller highways and county roads, with all the myriad means of transportation, people "out in the boonies" who don't lock their doors, are just asking for trouble, in my opinion.

I know of many cases where such incidents have occurred.

Just my thoughts on "No need to lock the doors. We are safe out here."

L.W.

 

[nibb]

Maybe he just wanted a gun, and the whole story of the robbery was a lie. I cannot believe that there is people that doenst lock their house. Would you also leave you car unlocked on the street?

 

[Caimlas]

Sounds pretty typical to me, I guess.

If it were me, I'd simply have stated that I didn't feel comfortable enough with his apparent mentality to sell him a gun - had he wanted one. Just like you'd likely do for someone who came in wearing a cap on sideways, with baggy pants, and talking/acting like a miscreant/thug/gangsta/whatever.

Sounds like he may have been the compulsive type, and your reasoning with him may have averted his purchase (thankfully).

 

[Caimlas]

Maybe he just wanted a gun, and the whole story of the robbery was a lie. I cannot believe that there is people that doenst lock their house. Would you also leave you car unlocked on the street?

A lot of people do both these things. Hell, quite a few people in this area leave their doors wide open (ie screen door only during the summer) throughout the day and night. There are people in apartments who never even shut their doors while they're home.

I grew up in a small community (10k, and one of the 'population centers' in the area) where nobody locked their doors. Very few people did because there was next to no crime. One murder in 10 years, I think - and that one was of a man who had raped his wife and daughter (or something like that) who got off due to mental deficiencies, but was later let out to roam.

I know an (attractive, slight, of Eastern European descent) woman of 25 who lives alone with her two (under 4) kids. She leaves her door open all the time, and its not even a "good" neighborhood. It's not a bad neighborhood, either (at least by national standards, but there are quite a few drunks and 'poor working class' who live in the area who are always milling about), but she does live in an apartment building that does not have outside entry access (ie, a person could walk straight from the street to her apartment without a challenge). She thinks she's safe at 5'8" or so and maybe 130lb because "she has a black belt" in TKD. Sorry, but most tae kwon do schools are a joke for self-defense. A slightly male could quite easily 'take her on', particularly since she's got small kids. To no surprise, she's got a victim's mentality and hates guns; she's unwilling to admit she has any sort of vulnerability whatsoever (which is why she's a single biotch, also to no surprise.)

I, like you, think it's pure idiocy, but these people have no common sense whatsoever. Even in communities where you can be relatively safe while doing so, it's still foolish.

 

[PPGMD]

Just my thoughts on "No need to lock the doors. We are safe out here."

Though I agree that the above mindset is the wrong one. There are areas with so little crime that you can for example forget to lock your door and come back and nothing happens.

My folks live on a little island not far from Tampa, during my senior year of high school I decided to take an extended spring break (with an appropriately forged note given to school) and left the house unlocked (my parents were working on a contract up North). When I came back two weeks later I realized that I left it unlocked. Nothing missing what so ever.

But then again this is a small island where the cops routinely patrol up and down every street and are very distrustful of out of towner's.

 

[nibb]

Thats because they where never rob or even saw crime in real live, they think things happens only on the news or films. I agree, any martial art, is a joke for self defense.

 

[Werewolf]

SierraBravo45:
I applaud your morals, your value system, your ethics and obviously strong sense of integrity. IMO you did exactly the right thing. Seriously - I am not being sarcastic.

That said: If I'd been your boss or the owner of the gun shop in which you work I'd have fired you on the spot. All you had to do was answer the guy's questions about the best gun for home defense and sell him what ever he chose. Instead you talked him out of making a purchase and gave advice that was not yours to give.

The man was there to buy a gun. You were there to sell him one. It is your duty as an employee of a business to sell the products the business has for sale as long as that sale is legal.

What the customer does with his purchase after he leaves the door is his business and not yours or the store's.

In this case doing the right thing may have saved some folks some heartache and that was the right thing for you as an individual to do. On the other hand you failed in your duty to your employer. Life's a balancing act - in this case you lucked out and didn't take a fall.

 

[DMK]

I have a relative who not only leaves the doors unlocked, but leaved the keys in the car. No concept of security at all.

 

[PPGMD]

What the customer does with his purchase after he leaves the door is his business and not yours or the store's.

I disagree with the current litigious society, if you had even a slim doubt that he would have used the weapon improperly then the family or the victim can sue you and the gun shop.

You may win, you may even get your legal fees back if it was deemed frivolous, but it's going to cost you time and money.

 

[Declaration Day]

Regarding your duty to sell someone a gun, you don't have one. It may seem like an oxymoron, but businesses have no obligation to sell products or services to anybody.

I'm not in the gun business, but I turn down a few customers each year who I get a bad vibe from. If one of my employees did the same on my behalf, I would say he's looking out for the best interest of me and my business.

 

[mpmarty]

I owned a gun store for several years in the 1990s and can remember refusing to sell a firearm on two instances. My store was in a mall and I saw two guys walk up to the front of my store by the large front window and one handed a roll of bills to the other. The one with the "recently acquired" cash came in by himself and announced he wanted to buy a 9mm pistol. I asked him to leave and quit trying to set me up for a straw man sale, he laughed and showed me his federal ID. The second one was a young lady going through a divorce who had a restraining order on her ex but he ignored it and broke into her apartment one night and kicked her around. After pleading he got ten days!! He was due out the next day and she didn't want to go through that again. She was about four foot ten and weighed about a hundred pounds. I asked her if she had ever shot a gun and she said "no". I told her to take a sauce pan full of cooking oil and keep it simmering on her stove. If he broke in again, throw it in his face.

 

[win71]

Agree with werewolf

Although it is admirable a counter person would have concern for repercussions resulting from being a "middle man" for a weapon purchase, his advice should be on the weapon characteristics as far as the customers stated purpose. There are not too many gun store counter persons that have the training, expertise, or authority to decide whether a free and legally qualified citizen should be allowed to exercise his 2nd amendment rights.

As far as being sued for negligence I suppose it could happen. Anybody can sue anybody for almost anything. I guess a boat salesman knowing a customer couldn't swim or operate an outboard could also be sued if the guy fell out of the boat and drowned.

 

[sb350hp]

Unfortunatley stupididity is not illegal in the USA!

They guy does not need a gun and hope he does not get one till he gets some training. And the Army story is BS based on the story.

 

[Caimlas]

I agree, any martial art, is a joke for self defense.

No, that's not what I was saying, and that's not what I meant in the least bit. It's just that taikwondo is taught in America in such a fashion that its application is similar to someone who is good at laser tag thinking they could out-shoot a combat experienced Marine. It's closer to Tai Bo (kickboxing aerobics) or children's gymnastics than it is to a real martial art.

There are a great many number of martial arts out there which would could be well-employed for self defense. Even TKD. Just not by small female with about a year's worth of weekly training in TKD, several years ago.

 

[Caimlas]

There are not too many gun store counter persons that have the training, expertise, or authority to decide whether a free and legally qualified citizen should be allowed to exercise his 2nd amendment rights.

I don't see how saying, "I won't sell my or my employer's property to you, because I feel as if your purchase will come back to bite me in the arse at a later time," in any way prevents a person from exercising his 2nd Amendment rights. People have a right to their own property, too, and to do business with whom they please.

 

[Husker1911]

Disagree With Werewolf

I've worked in three gun stores, over 15 years time. It was always emphasized to all employees that it was their right to refuse a sale if they weren't comfortable with it, for whatever reason. It only happened a couple times, and involved suspected gang member types. The employees were commended for their discretion.

 

[PistolNewbie]

Wow! Good for you! I have worked retail for over 36 years and sometimes you have to use your good morals, common sense, and go with your gut instincts! It is true our job is to sell and bring in $$$. You could have sold the guy the gun (and a bartender could have sold a drunk another drink.) In an ideal world everybody would be responsible for their own actions and consequences, but we all know it doesn't work that way. Life is full of tough decisions--I believe you made the right one!

 

[roscoe]

Sounds like they just need a dog - less common sense required.

BTW - I soetime do not lock my dog, but I have a dog, which is plenty of deterrent.

 

[DC-Loudsound]

get some training ....

sierrabravo45,

If it were me working in the store .... I would recommend that the customer in this case get some training before making a purchase. If he is not familiar with firearms or hasn’t handled one for several years, a good defensive handgun class would be just the thing for him. He would begin the process of learning safe gun handling techniques ( to be passed down to his son ) , and learn something about the laws and personal responsibilities of using a firearm in self defense.

Refusing a sale to a customer based on the way he looked … that’s a tough one. I know if it were me going in to buy a new pistol, and the salesmen told me he would not sell me a gun because I did not look right to him ( until recently I had long hair ), beard, big tattoo …I don’t think I’d like that. But if it was Johnny Gang Member ( real or wanna’ be ) …. I’d have trouble just selling him whatever he wanted without having a long talk and finding out what he was all about. That could be a tough call ….

 

[Doggy Daddy]

I don't lock my dogs either. You never know when you'll have a need for a dog, and having to search around for the key to unlock it could be a big problem.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Nice decision in a tough call. Salespeople are pressured by their employers to make a sale, but this situation had danger/eventual lawsuit written all over it. I imagine if you had told this customer the reason you were reluctant to sell it to him (unsecured from unauthorised access, every sign of being irresponsible) he would not have listened. Then, most likely, he'd be back in a few weeks to say it was stolen, and eventually there would have been an accident, the guy would be in jail, and you'd be out of a job.
In my company, I, the sales-person, have a say in whether a sale goes through or not. In my store, my managers will back me if I refuse a sale, because I have a good reason. This situation falls under the basic rule that applies to crazies and drunks. Someone seems mentally deficient, or is possibly under teh influence, you can refuse a sale on the spot. Some sporting goods stores might not have that, but it should be in writing. This guy was obviously a risk, to himself, his family, other innocents, and the seller's company (and probably the seller himself). In that situation, you decline the sale. Let the guy go to Wal-mart and get one, they can take the heat.
Any manager and/or owner who would fire an employee for refusing a sale under these circumstances (or any situation where the seller feels a legitimate moral obligation to refuse), seriously needs to evaluate his own business ethics. Furthermore, any employee who shows that he cares enough to refuse on such a basis as this, should be commended for showing that he gives a damn about the customer and business.
I'm all for 2A, but if someone wants to protect themselves from break-ins, yet refuses to do the basic step of locking their doors at night, I am NOT going to trust them with a gun.