Ball ammunition and .380 personal defense

[shootingthebreeze]

I had an interesting converstion with a local gun dealer relating to .380s and the type of ammunition he prefers.

Backgroud: When I was in the US Army, my side arm was the .45. We were issued ball ammunition. The reasons for ball were 1- penetration. Soldiers have a lot of clothing making ball ammunition a better choice for penetrating power. 2-Rules of war dictate that no fragmenting or distorting ammunition will be used in the battlefield relating to firearms.

This gun dealer followed the same logic the Army has relating to penetration and ball ammunition. He also added that ball is more reliable with less hangup in semi autos.

That's also why the US Army used ball with the .45-reliability.

Much hype and much discussion here has revolved around ammunition types from jacketed hollow points to hydroshock. I even did some checking on JHP and yes, it creates a large wound channel making it, it seems, a better choice for the .380 like Cor Bon 90 grain JHP.

Yet thinking back at the US Army logic and how a hollow point could mushroom prematurely when striking clothes, then the ball would be a better choice based on the gun dealer's logic. Penetration and reliability.

Perhaps ball is a better bullet, putting aside all the hype of hollow points and company. When using a .380, ammunition choice is really a critical factor.

 

[earlthegoat2]

There will be a lot of folks coming in here talking about "modern bullets" or "modern ammunition" or "modern powders". These people generally are not concerned with facts and more concerned about justifying their 380 to themselves and everyone else. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE 380 AS A DEFENSE ROUND. We each use what we must and what we are most comfortable with.

Sure technology has come a long way but you can only push a bullet so fast out of any given gun and still be within SAAMI specs. The so called 380 +P is an example of how not to do it. Personally I think it is marketing hype but nonetheless it has a label so I guess it exists.

Your gun still has to be able to take the punishment. If it were me I would only use FMJ in a 380 as well.

Testing can tell us a little but I bet FMJs have killed more people than cancer. There are a fair number on here who use FMJ in their 380s. It is probably what I would recommend to anyone. No one usually takes my advice though. Many older guns like Colt mustangs and Govt 380s were designed for FMJ.

FMJs generally feed more reliably than hollowpoints. This is a fact backed up by a century of evidence.

However hollowpoints have their place as well. The 380's biggest fault is the weight of its bullets. They are quite light and even the Remington Golden Sabers 102gr weight is pretty dismal compared to the 158gr of the 38 Special. Some believe it will not give appropriate penetration especially through thicker clothing. Maybe, maybe not.

I dont have empirical studies to show you or proofs of anything here. All I know is that the 380 in FMJ form has been stopping people for a heck of a lot longer than hollowpoints have. That does not mean the FMJs are the best choice.

 

[pikid89]

hardcast buffalo bore .380

 

[orionengnr]

and how a hollow point could mushroom prematurely when striking clothes

Never heard that one. The more likely scenario is that the clothing clogs the hollow point, causing the bullet to act as an FMJ.

There are lots of threads on .380 and peoples' preferences of FMJ/JHP/hard cast LFP, etc.

And almost as many different opinions.

 

[shootingthebreeze]

orion, no matter-you still wind up with an ineffective hollow point.

The gun dealer did mention premature mushrooming.

The US Army must have done its homework relating to FMJ. As earl said above, FMJs have caused a lot of casualties.

The gun dealer also added that FMJs have strong shock power-which is hailed a lot with hollow points and hydroshock. Perhaps going back to the basics versus following the hype on modern ammo is the way to go.

What has worked in the past will work in the future. Marketing is probably 80% of "Personal Defense Ammunition" at a higher cost I may add whereas using a reliable ball will provide penetration, shock and feed reliability. At a lesser cost.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Dont put all your eggs in one basket here. You have to remember FMJs have been around a lot longer as well. I made the above statement know this full well. It doesnt hurt that they are the default ammunition in war too. In the world of revolvers the traditional defense round was the lead round nose. That also has a track record of making dependable stops. It was really all that was available though. Charles Askins lived in the days of FMJs and lead round noses and wrote about them. Coming from his works you would think these are the end all be all of defense ammunition.

Hollow points have proven effective in larger calibers easpecially the 9mm which has a pretty high muzzle velocity compared to the 40 and 45. Instead of getting instant through and throughs you are getting mushrooming and energy dumping into the fluid mass. The 380 is on the border in my opinion as to where a hollow point will either help or hurt or there will be no difference. The bullet mass just is not there for the weight retention aspect of gross penetration.

 

[Tommygunn]

The US Army must have done its homework relating to FMJ. As earl said above, FMJs have caused a lot of casualties.

The army doesn't use ball ammo ("FMJ") because of research showing it is a superweapon, they use it because it is what is issued, and it is issued because the government has decided we will abide by certain international agreements which forbid the use of "hollowpoint" or "dum-dum" rounds, even though we are (or may not be) signatories to those agreements.
As for use in .380ACP, personally I use hollowpoint rounds but I am also aware that many people choose ball ammo for it.
I do think most modern semiautos work pretty well with most hollowpoints. I have several semiautos and have yet to have a problem with hollowpoints in any of them, however I am sure someone will pipe up with a story of how they get hang-ups on their XYZ auto gun with Ace Brand hollowpoint bullets.
IMO the most important thing is to decide upon what type of ammo you wish to use, and then to run XXX* rounds through your gun to assure that reliability is there.
Placement is usually more important than having a wonder-round.


*--usually a few hundred.

 

[atavist]

I've got a Walther PPK and a Sig p238, both hang up randomly with semi-wadcutter, hp, or jhp ammo... both fire flawlessly with ball....
... easy decision... I only load ball ammo in my .380s

and for the record I do agree that the .380 is a self-defence/backup gun for when you can't carry anything bigger for some reason.

 

[Tommygunn]

Told you so .....

 

[9mmepiphany]

orion, no matter-you still wind up with an ineffective hollow point.

But it would still be as effective as the FMJ he was advocating

The gun dealer did mention premature mushrooming.

He was mistaken, hollow points going through layers will clog before they expand...it has to do with the fluid content

The US Army must have done its homework relating to FMJ. As earl said above, FMJs have caused a lot of casualties.

The Army's selection of projectile is dictated by political concerns rather than effectiveness

The gun dealer also added that FMJs have strong shock power-which is hailed a lot with hollow points and hydroshock. Perhaps going back to the basics versus following the hype on modern ammo is the way to go.

FMJ slugs have a history of through and through performance...that means that they are not effectively depositing all their energy into the bady they are passing through

What has worked in the past will work in the future. Marketing is probably 80% of "Personal Defense Ammunition" at a higher cost I may add whereas using a reliable ball will provide penetration, shock and feed reliability. At a lesser cost.

You are of course free to make your own choices on ammunition purchases and what you want to believe about bullet performance, however when you are in this area of potential power from a handgun cartridge, I would suggest that saving money might not be a wise choice as your highest priority

 

[Fastcast]

FMJ slugs have a history of through and through performance...that means that they are not effectively depositing all their energy into the bady they are passing through

True but when they say hello & goodbye it can be argued that two holes are better than one, for quicker bleed out. Of course a CNS hit with either ends the fight now.

 

[cheygriz]

I carry a .380 as my EDC. I carry Hydra-Shoks.

But I would not feel the least bit uncomfortable or "undergunned" with ball ammo.

Like my first old police Sgt said, "It aint what ya hit 'em with, son, it's where ya hit 'em."

 

[David E]

it can be argued that two holes are better than one, for quicker bleed out.

Due to the elasticity of skin (stretchiness) it will close up nearly all the way after a full metal jacket .380 bullet pokes thru. It won't bleed very much. (which might be important if I thought I'd have to track him down later....)

Waiting for a badguy to bleed out while he is actively trying to kill me isn't the best option I have available.

 

[Geckgo]

Okay, just want to clear one thing up before I give my .380 fmj opinion. When hollowpoints (or any other expanding bullet) fails, it fails to expand. Premature expansion??? Maybe if you fired at someone on the other side of a fishbowl, clothing will not generally open a hollowpoint, but it can clog it. When a HP is clogged, the fluid (gel, tissue, water, whatever) can't fill the hollowpoint, causing the round to fail to expand, and then it behaves just like a fmj as far as penetration. This is general knowledge and availible anywhere. Some ammo companies have even tried getting around this issue by filling the hollowpoint with a soft, fluidtype material to keep it from clogging, sometimes causing it to exapand before hitting a fluid cavity, but this ammo is reccommended for SD only and not for police use, where a barrier might be involved.

That said, the problem that some have (including myself) with .380 hollowpoints is not when they fail, it's when they work. A fully expanded .380 HP might only penetrate 6-8 inches, which for SD use, if you are shooting at a target that is facing you, will not cause a problem hitting the heart, but if their body is turned, you may not get adequate penetration to reach anything vital. FMJs (and HP failures) will still penetrate more than 12" reccomended by the FBI for duty use (or so we are all told). That is the reason for choosing FMJ or Soft point over fast expanding hollowpoints in that caliber.

Modern guns don't seem to have that many feeding issues, at least I've never had a problem with this, nor has anyone else that I know personally, but on the whole, JHPs do have more feed issues than ball ammo. You can test your gun to make sure that your bullets feed, and it is reccommended.

 

[Fastcast]

Due to the elasticity of skin (stretchiness) it will close up nearly all the way after a full metal jacket .380 bullet pokes thru. It won't bleed very much. (which might be important if I thought I'd have to track him down later....)

Waiting for a badguy to bleed out while he is actively trying to kill me isn't the best option I have available.

How about a FMJ 9mm?

Unless it's a CNS hit, how else do you suppose they'll STOP?.....Oh, it's a .45 and it hurts really bad bhaaaawha ...If they're that determined to continue it's not caliber. It's a CNS hit or bleed out.

<deleted>

 

[BADUNAME37]

So, if you wonder whether your .380 ammo will save your hide, load it with two or three different loads that you know all shoot well out of your gun.

I have lead round nose Meister 92 grain, I also have Hornady 90g XTP's which shoot well. I also have factory ball ammo in about three or four different flavors which all shoot as well as all the others out of my LCP.

I suppose if I really want to be sure, load each magazine with one of each!

I am hoping the Crimson Trace will stop them in their tracks as I do not want to shoot anyone, but would if forced to (i.e., it's either me or the bad guy).

 

[9mmepiphany]

How about a FMJ 9mm?

Unless it's a CNS hit, how else do you suppose they'll STOP?.....Oh, it's a .45 and it hurts really bad bhaaaawha ...If they're that determined to continue it's not caliber. It's a CNS hit or bleed out.

Noone but you has mentioned different calibers in this thread. The OP's question was about the performance of FMJ vs hollowpoints and their effectiveness.

Please don't start a thread drift

 

[Fastcast]

Noone but you has mentioned different calibers in this thread. The OP's question was about the performance of FMJ vs hollowpoints and their effectiveness.

Please don't start a thread drift

Anyone familiar with David's posts can surely read his body language (so to speak) and know where he's going.....Don't worry, carry on.

 

[ohwell]

Dont forget the other reason for hollowpoints. You may want the bullet to stop in the intended target so it doesnt continue on and injure another maybe innocent party. Your responsible for that bullet until it stops.

 

[xr1200]

Only issue is real over penentration, and hitting an innocent person, resulting in a possible civil or criminal trial.

Even spoke to a friend who is a criminal defense attorney about applying the accidental shooting statute resulting from a stay bullet during a justified shooting and his comment was.

Don't put anything past a over zealous DA that wants to pursue criminal proceedings.

 

[Lonestar49]

Weather related loads

...

When I use to own a Sig P232 SL 380acp, hot days, very light clothing, I'd use 95gr JHP's - Cold weather, thick clothing, I'd use the flat-headed FMJ 95gr..

The flat-headed bullets do offer substantial "punch" along with good drag once penetration has occurred, much like 40 S&W flat head FMJ's - but then, that's another story but the punch (and reliable deep penetration) of a flat head bullet IS there, without doubts. OMMV

But then I sold it in favor of a 9mm, and SA EMP 1911..

But, after much reading, the good and the bad, the HD/SD loads mentioned above were the_call for my late 380acp.

OMMV


Ls

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I spend more time practicing and less time debating over what bullet to use. Even with ball, 2 to the chest and one to the head would likely do the job of stopping a threat.

 

[oldfool]

well, I am pretty much odd man out on several counts
I prefer to casual wear 380 acp (count #1)
and I choose FMJ (count #2)
don't carry an extra mag (count #3)

I do believe bullet technology has improved in virtually all calibers, and that 9mm today "ain't your grandaddy's 9mm no more" (arbitary example. that)
BUT.. I do think that JHP is overhyped as a mega-marketing trend, despite the improvements in bullet designs

any day now I expect to see a box of 25 acp JHP on the store shelf, you know

I more trust penetration and feed reliability of hardball when it comes to my 380, I am not worried about COM overpenetration thru and thru with any 380 round, I just don't believe in hydostatic shock out of other than rifle rounds, and waiting for 'em to bleed out is not a great notion, no matter what the hole size, if those holes are not in just the few very right places.. waiting on bambi to bleed out if not hit in the very right places with a lot more potent rounds than most of us carry IWB or OWB or pocket never worked that great either

for JHP, gimme more speed to go with
38+P or 357 speed, out of ample barrel length, something like

PS
mine is a Colt Gov'mt, but I have shot JHPs thru it without any problems feeding
a man just has to try some things "just because" you know
didn't expand much going thru a thin sheet of paper, of course
but range paper aside, I believe FMJ still best bet for reliable if/when reliable really counts

 

[cheygriz]

Hornady and Speer have been selling .25 ACP JHP ammo for years!

 

[john5036]

I normally carry ball ammo in my backup magazine for my .380. If I can't shred through the danger, I might as well put holes in the danger.