oldfool
Member
ohmygosh, guess I better get me some (25 acp JHP) ??
Ball ammunition and .380 personal defense
- Thread starter shootingthebreeze
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Funny... back in the day, when I carried a 7.65mm, I loaded it with FMJ for more reliable feeding.
When you get to that small a bullet, your only advantage is surprise (small gun size) and shot placement (thin boned area...temple, eye socket) and for that you have to have reliable feeding for multiple shots into a small area before they can move or cover up.
While I've seen good shot placement make one-shot drops (stop would be too strong a word), it usually takes multiple shots to get that one good one
oldfool
Member
I was just kidding, guys
really not "surprised" they make 25 acp JHP
just not interested in it
never did carry one, would not be my personal choice even if I did BUGs
back on topic, will sometimes drop a real similar size gun in pocket, you know, an LCP 380acp
loaded with... you guessed it... FMJ
(don't make much of a mess out of ol' possum, but the noise usually scares 'em off, you know)
really not "surprised" they make 25 acp JHP
just not interested in it
never did carry one, would not be my personal choice even if I did BUGs
back on topic, will sometimes drop a real similar size gun in pocket, you know, an LCP 380acp
loaded with... you guessed it... FMJ
(don't make much of a mess out of ol' possum, but the noise usually scares 'em off, you know)
I like the .380 as a defensive round, used to carry two KT3ATs and both were loaded with flat nosed ball ammo. Utterly reliable, good penetration and that little gun shot very well in my hands; even with its diminutive sights. Someone mentioned "energy dump" but I don't think that would be too much of a factor with a 95gr round from a .380. SD HPs are quite expensive and some of us are on a forced financial diet and can't afford to buy over a hundred rounds of SD ammo to test reliability and carry it regularly...my vote is for ball ammo and its penetration. Lastly, though I do care about bystanders I have yet to hear of litigation after a through and through with a .380 which resulted in injury to said bystander...could have happened and could possibly happen but it seems unlikely to me.
CZ57
member
Sounds like good logic to me. If you are a handloader you can handload a 115 gr. JHP that's not likely to expand much. Kind of strange that there are no factory loads in this weight. I imagine recoil would be brisk from some of the smaller .380s.
Geckgo
Member
To me, the best 380 bullet would be a solid lead "hunting" bullet with a flat nose. Vary the tin content a bit till you get just a little bit of expansion, but not flattening the round or mushrooming it proper. That would be perfect! Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.shootingthebreeze
Member
earl, message 6- ypur point is a good one that the .380 is on the border. Higher velocity loads would benefit with JHP; and in the summer the .380 world probably be effective with JHP.
shootingthebreeze
Member
Thank you everyone (positive and negative comments).
A note that yes, the military was concerned mostly with abiding with international protocols relating to ball ammo-and that the US Army probably did not spend an enormous amount of time on the bullet's effectiveness though I think they knew of its advantages in the battle field.
The discussion has a reason: I'm at this point leaning towards the Kahr .380 as a pocket all around carry pistol. As other comments made on other sites state, many have a main weapon but many also carry the .380 because "it's with me all the time." I think that's what the pull is with these small, new pistols. The trick is to get a high quality one and, select the proper ammunition which will be effective.
I've been wrestling with the ammo thing for a while because I think that with the .380, ammunition requirements are more critical than with larger calibers. It's on the "border" so to speak. Thus, ammunition selection is more critical for the .380 because you want to maximize effectiveness.
A note that yes, the military was concerned mostly with abiding with international protocols relating to ball ammo-and that the US Army probably did not spend an enormous amount of time on the bullet's effectiveness though I think they knew of its advantages in the battle field.
The discussion has a reason: I'm at this point leaning towards the Kahr .380 as a pocket all around carry pistol. As other comments made on other sites state, many have a main weapon but many also carry the .380 because "it's with me all the time." I think that's what the pull is with these small, new pistols. The trick is to get a high quality one and, select the proper ammunition which will be effective.
I've been wrestling with the ammo thing for a while because I think that with the .380, ammunition requirements are more critical than with larger calibers. It's on the "border" so to speak. Thus, ammunition selection is more critical for the .380 because you want to maximize effectiveness.
shootingthebreeze
Member
9Mm, probably a combination ball and JHP.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
A hollow-point bullet doesn't work that way.
They will not expand in dry medium like clothing.
They will only expand in body fluid, or other fluids, as the liquid generates internal hydraulic pressure that causes them to expand.
The worst that can happen with clothing is the dry fibers clog the HP cavity and prevent fluids from entering.
In that case, they do not expand, and penetrate just like a FMJ bullet.
In any case, it is a proven fact that JHP is a more effective SD bullet then any FMJ if it does expand. If it doesn't expand, it's a FMJ for all practice purposes.
Consequently, both my .380's stay loaded with JHP ammo.
I only use FMJ for range practice.
rc
David E
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Leave it to fastcast to critique a post I never made...
If he wants to count on his adversary to "bleed out" from tiny exit wounds, that's his choice.
As I actually have posted previously, the smaller you go in caliber or power the more precise you need to be.
If I carried a .380 as a primary, on purpose, I would become an "eyes, nose, throat" specialist, since that's what my aiming point(s) would be, regardless of the load, firing as fast as I could hit.
But that's just me.
If he wants to count on his adversary to "bleed out" from tiny exit wounds, that's his choice.
As I actually have posted previously, the smaller you go in caliber or power the more precise you need to be.
If I carried a .380 as a primary, on purpose, I would become an "eyes, nose, throat" specialist, since that's what my aiming point(s) would be, regardless of the load, firing as fast as I could hit.
But that's just me.
oldfool
Member
well, now that that's been settled...
what is your preference, friend, for 380 acp loads, ball or hollowpoint ?
small holes don't bleed 'em out quick, no they don't
so which one works better in 380acp, ball or HP (thread topic), for "eyes, nose, throat"??
(presuming sufficient practice to make the shot, of course)
should I switch from FMJ to JHP ?
what is your preference, friend, for 380 acp loads, ball or hollowpoint ?
small holes don't bleed 'em out quick, no they don't
so which one works better in 380acp, ball or HP (thread topic), for "eyes, nose, throat"??
(presuming sufficient practice to make the shot, of course)
should I switch from FMJ to JHP ?
Shooting, if you are saying you wish to stagger the magazine by alternating FMJs and JHPs I would advise that you not do this. This could cause reliability problems in your pistol. Pick a type of ammo that functions well and use it in your gun with the magazine being full of just one type of ammo.
TexasBill
Member
We have three .380s: a Beretta 84FS Cheetah, a Browning BDA and a Walther PK380. The Beretta loaded with 14 rounds of Remington Golden Saber is on my hip as I write this. We use Remington UMC bulk FMJ at the range and Remington Golden Saber for carry. None of our guns have had any problems with any quality ammo.
I would have no problem carrying FMJ ammunition as a SD round.
I would have no problem carrying FMJ ammunition as a SD round.
Jeff82
Member
shootingthebreeze
Member
9mm, yes, I know I never mix ammo in a magazine load just one type. What I meant is that I might have either JHP or FMJ depending of the circumstances.
Thanks rc for clarifying the gun dealer was wrong. I figured as much that a hollow point expands only when striking fluid.
Thanks rc for clarifying the gun dealer was wrong. I figured as much that a hollow point expands only when striking fluid.
Lord Palmerston
Member
There is nothing wrong with FMJ ammo in .380 or in any other caliber. The only issues are overpenetration and ricochets, which might lead to hit innocent bystanders. Nevertheless, what it is an issue in personal defense becomes an advantage in military uses, where overpenetration or the possibility of ricochets are desirable.
jiminhobesound
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Bullet effectiveness experts
A FEW WEEKS AGO I READ A POST BY A PERSON WHO WORREPORTKED FOR A CORONER. HE HAD KEPT DETAILED RECORDS IDENTIFYING THE CALIBER AND THE RESULTS OF DEATHS BY FIREARM. HE MADE SOME VERY INTERSTING POINTS. I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE IS A SIMILAR DETAILED REPORT ONLINE. i BELIEVE THIS TYPE OF STUDY IS THE MOST RELIABLE IF THE RESULTS OF THE WOULD CAN BE EQUATED TO A CALIBER AND BULLET TYPE.
A FEW WEEKS AGO I READ A POST BY A PERSON WHO WORREPORTKED FOR A CORONER. HE HAD KEPT DETAILED RECORDS IDENTIFYING THE CALIBER AND THE RESULTS OF DEATHS BY FIREARM. HE MADE SOME VERY INTERSTING POINTS. I DO NOT KNOW IF THERE IS A SIMILAR DETAILED REPORT ONLINE. i BELIEVE THIS TYPE OF STUDY IS THE MOST RELIABLE IF THE RESULTS OF THE WOULD CAN BE EQUATED TO A CALIBER AND BULLET TYPE.
jiminhobesound - Please turn your Caps Lock off when posting in the forum
Deanimator
Member
And I'll bet that the vast majority of them were either:
- Fired from automatic weapons
- Fired into the back of the neck of a prisoner kneeling in a cellar or in front of a mass grave
If I have to shoot somebody, I only want to have to explain why I shot the person trying to maim or murder me, NOT why I ACCIDENTALLY shot the toddler standing behind him.
Oh boy, here it comes...
Hollow points can mushroom prematurely when impacting a viscus material such as flesh, clothing will only make them clog and act like fmj at worst. Also, most jhps are loaded hotter than the usual fmj so you have an added benefit of extra velocity. I wouldn't want a gun that couldn't reliably feed jhps for defense, and most modern guns are made with jhps in mind. Ball ammo also has more of a chance of overpenetration, which could lead to legal issues even if your shoot was justifiable.
It seems like you are trying really hard to validate your desire to use cheap fmj for SD. If it meets your theory of what works then go right ahead, but know it's limitations.
FMJ has less stopping power than jhps, usually are loaded lighter, and may overpenetrate. For a caliber such as .380, which gives adequate penetration (fbi not withstanding) to incapacitate reliably even with jhps, it does not make sense to me to use fmj.
If energy transfer is a myth then why is there a difference between .380 and .357 mag, or more dramatically .30 carbine and .308, when they make the same sized hole? Overblown and exaggerated perhaps (especially with handguns), not so much a myth.
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Fastcast
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Leave it to fastcast to critique a post I never made...
If he wants to count on his adversary to "bleed out" from tiny exit wounds, that's his choice.
As I actually have posted previously, the smaller you go in caliber or power the more precise you need to be.
If I carried a .380 as a primary, on purpose, I would become an "eyes, nose, throat" specialist, since that's what my aiming point(s) would be, regardless of the load, firing as fast as I could hit.
But that's just me.
David....I guess I did jump the gun a little....I was just thinking of the post you've made a hundred times before in every other .380 thread. Silly me.
If you want to depend on your adversary stopping like they've been run over by train, from slightly less tiny holes to their arms, shoulders, legs etc. That's your choice......Seeing as you've said yourself it's hard for you to hit COM, I'll assume this is your strategy. Good luck!
I'll continue to believe I'm gonna win the fight (not the handgun caliber) and make my COM shots....Anything else is a failure on my part and not likely to turnout good for me, regardless of if I've chose to take a FMJ / JHP, .380, 9mm, .40 or .45 that day.
IMO....quality shots to COM of JHP or FMJ are what counts....I think either is fine for .380 or any other caliber......Way too much splitting of hairs on here about which type of bullets and calibers. Hit COM and those things become much less relevant. Don't hit COM and well, sure any advantage is helpful, just probably not near as much as some suspect.
I am perplexed why someone who shows such disgust for the .380 caliber continually jumps into every .380 thread to stir the pot......Hell, I don't like Taurus and guess what I rarely ever participate in those threads because there's no point in me habitually belittling people about what they see fit to defend themselves.....Just saying.
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