Best Western Sixgun: AWA, Uberti, or USFA?

[Lone Star]

A friend has the urge for a good single-action revolver. The Colt SAA is too expensive for him, and recent ones seem to have quality issues.

He is hesitant to get a Uberti (including the Uberti-made Beretta Stampede) because he has heard that the metallurgy isn't great, and that screw heads and springs are sometimes soft and/or brittle.

He wonders about the USFA guns that are (even in the less costly Rodeo) supposedly better put together than a Colt. And asked me about something called an AWA. That one, I don't know...

He has Rugers; what he wants now is the closest thing he can fnd to a Colt SAA with good steel and quality control.

Anyone familiar with these guns care to comment?

Among the Uberti-made items, is the Cimarron line the best option? Cimarron claims that they pay for extra care in production.

Thanks,

Lone Star

 

[Marshall]

A shrink would have a ball with this post.

 

[Quantrill]

Stick with the Rugers! Quantrill

 

[jsalcedo]

I have the Uberti in 45acp with the .45 LC cylinder.

It is a great gun. the gunshop owner handed me a new Colt SAA and the Uberti and asked me which one had better workmanship.

Surprisingly it was the Uberti. I paid $339 NIB. the ability to shoot cheap .45acp is a great feature.

 

[Jim March]

By all reports, the USFA Rodeo and it's higher-dollar-finish cousins are the best SAA pattern guns made today. The Rodeo and more expensive models are the exact same gun made the same way to the same tolerances - the big-bux variants get shipped off to Turnbull for a killer "paint job" is all (and maybe fancier grips).

AWA is hand-tuning, finishing and optimizing Italian-origin guns...I forget if Uberti or Armi San Marco or other. They're OK, and if you must have a killer finish they're priced above the Rodeo but below the Turnbull-finished USFAs like the SAA and China Camp.

If you don't care about cosmetics, the Rodeo is the best deal going. It was basically set up from day one to win CAS/SASS events. The sights are as good as the Traditional class allows, the cylinder is just a hair over-width for strength in case a reloaded round is a turd yet not "Ruger massive" enough to screw with the balance. Most accounts show them to be more accurate out of the box than a Ruger and the sights more likely to be dead on for windage (elevation always has some user choices to be made with a file, and that's how it should be).

 

[Otony]

I'm with Jim on this one. The USFA's are completely made in the US of A, and exhibit FAR better fit and finish than any of the Colts I owned. I base this on over 15 Colts by the way.

No less a craftsman than Hamilton bowen rates the USFA as the best single action production revolver EVER made.

The Rodeo is the bargain of the century. If you go for a zoot suit finish model, it is just a work of art. My .44 Special Flattop Target is the best gun I own.

 

[Jim March]

A review:

http://www.gunblast.com/USFA_Rodeo.htm

http://www.usfirearms.com/pdf/gunsmagjan2004_p1.pdf

http://www.usfirearms.com/pdf/guntests0703.pdf - this one is a must-see: Gun Tests compares a real Colt, an AWA, a Uberti and the Rodeo.

More archived on the www.usfirearms.com site - navigate over to the "tests" area (too many frames to post direct links).

 

[jsalcedo]

Thanks for the review.

 

[Josey]

You asked! The AWAs are JUNK! Skip them. They were made by Armi San Marcos and full of QC problems. The new AWAs are made by Mateba and also have problems. AWA has a poor history in QC, fit, function and breakage of parts. The USFA used to be THE best Ubertis ever made. USFA has now begun making their own firearms. They are that good. Their pistols are nice. The Rodeos are ugly but, they function fine. The Ubertis that Cimmaron has are ONLY better externally in fit and finish, they are not worth the extra money. The Berettas I have seen have been rough and easily jammed/frozen due to ill-fitted internals. Their nickel revolvers should not see the light of day. They are poorly polished and exhibit machining marks. The better choice for a single action that is reliable and works out of the box is the Great Western II by Pietta. I have heard 0 negatives about these revolvers. I shoot Rugers in 44-40 myself. I can suggest the following sies. www.hartfordarmory.com www.emf-company.com

 

[valnar]

I've been looking at a semi-authentic SAA clone for some time now too. I like the idea of the transfer bar so I can safely hold six shots. I know Beretta and Ruger both have this. How about the USFA or others?

-Robert

 

[Jim March]

No, the USFA is mechanically EXACTLY like a Colt SAA. Five-up carry only.

The Ubertis have a stupid "stick the base pin in another notch deeper" safety because the Gun Control Act of '68 makes it easier to import guns that have safeties. Sigh. It's basically useless. AWA strips that feature out once they get stateside, I think.

(Sidenote: the other "sporting use handgun features" under GCA68 are thumb-rest grips and adjustable sights. You know all those fixed-sight, no-external-safety Glocks? Well somewhere at the US recieving plant is this HUGE pile of adjustable rear sights that were on every one of the dang things when they were imported, but were stripped out and swapped for fixed once they landed stateside. No, I'm not kidding. No, you do NOT want any of those Glock factory adjustable rear sights. Why not? Because they're freakin' PLASTIC and were made to last just about long enough to ship 'em stateside. Keerist.)

OK, back to the 19th Century, sorta:

The Colt Cowboy had a transfer bar and "SAA feel". It also massively sucked. Don't even THINK about it.

Taurus of all people are about to intro a transfer bar SAA-pattern with the SAA's basic heft. Called a "Gaucho". Dunno how well they'll work.

The only real choice today in a transfer bar SAA pattern is the Beretta Stampede. Other than the "avoid the nickel" thing, most reports I've tracked at www.sassnet.com (or is it .net?) have been positive. Beretta bought Uberti, but is doing the Stampede in a new factory set up with CNC tooling. I would recommend personally inspecting a specimen for myself, with the checkout, in case of "bugs" but...hmmm...that might be your answer. Or wait a bit, see how Taurus does.

 

[Kestrel]

Yep, the USFA SAAa are the best, I think. The SAAs are beautiful. The Turnbull color case-blueing is superb.

Josey - why do you say the Rodeo is ugly? They are the same gun, just matte blued, instead of polish blued and color case-hardened.

The USFA is the first SAA I would buy. Second would be the Colt. (I'm not referring to Rugers, because they are a different design.)

Steve

 

[Josey]

The USFA Rodeos remind me of WWII plant guard pistols. They simply look like they were painted with hi-temp engine paint. USFA made China Camps in the white. Why not make the Rodeos in the white and lower the price?

 

[Lone Star]

Marshall-

This isn't a letter to a, "Cosmo" columnist about a STD infection.
I really am writing on behalf of a friend. No shrink needed.
I personally don't have the money for a luxury item/plaything like a single-action revolver until I buy two more S&W .357's and a CZ 9mm.

He isn't a forum member and asked me to post. And he thanks you fellows who have replied so helpfully.

By the way, I just learned that he already owns a Rodeo.

Lone Star

 

[Bart Noir]

Jim March, some Uberti's have another safety system.

Not saying that you are wrong, just that my Uberti Cattleman had a hammer block built into the hammer. I could load 6 and then carefully and lowely lower the hammer on a loaded chamber (I don't like that part any more than you do). Then pull the hammer back just a bit and this hammer block would move up and put itself between the hammer and the frame. In any position other than "back just a little" the hammer block was disengaged. Funny thing, the owner's manual said nada about this feature.

Bart Noir

 

[mec]

I bought this USFA several months ago and am not sorry yet.

I do quite a bit of shooting with a friend's first and second generation Colts and a scattering of Uberti and ASM "Clones" The USFA is at least the equal of any of the old Colts I've handled.

My friend gets by with Italian copies because he has developed quite a bit of skill in fitting replacement parts and doing action jobs. Traditionally, the question " Which Italian SAA is the Best?" has been hard to address because the answer could change from one shipment to the next. Now that Beretta has bought out Uberti, I am hearing that the fit and finish of all the Ubertis 9 not just the Beretta Stampedes) have improved. It may take a while to see if they continue to use the same Italian lock work parts that have gained such a reputation for poor quality and metalurgy.

 

[Jim March]

Bart: that's very interesting. Are you sure it was a real BLOCK? Not doubting you - it's interesting if this is an undocumented feature.

SAAs and true clones have a "safety notch" that allows you to bring the hammer back off of a live round. But it's NOT adequate. Too many people think it is, and hurt themselves, that's why Ruger went to the transfer bar AND converted Old Models - Ruger sold more SAA-pattern Old Models in a decade than Colt did period, and after a couple of accidents they lawyered up. And because they touted the safety of the new system, they felt there was a legal liability if they didn't free-upgrade retrofit the Old Models.

Which is why the Uberti story is interesting. It sounds like they eliminated a safety issue for ignorant owners WITHOUT letting on, to avoid pressure to retro-fit older specimens?

 

[Otony]

Jim, I used to have a Uberti with the same mechanism Bart describes. It is a small, spring loaded leg, if you will, in the face of the hammer. When you lower the hammer as Bart describes, the leg "kicks" out, and prevents the hammer from contacting the frame. to disengage, you simply brought 'er back to full cock.

From the rear, the hammer has a rectangular hole that actually traverses from front to back. This is just below the spur. Inside the hole, you will see a hefty pin, which comprises part of the mechanism.

If you watch some of the spaghetti westerns, you will notice this hole right off the bat. The CAS guys whined about it big time, early on, and Uberti went to the two position base pin to sooth their savage breasts

The two position pin had been in use before, and both tricksy mechanisms were a result of the '68 GCA. I am unsure if Uberti/Beretta uses the "leg" anymore, but it was pretty common for years. Remember, Uberti was more than willing to build to a contractor's specs, so it only showed up on some clones. Other guys spec'ed the base pin version.

I have spent time in the Uberti factory, and I can assure you, if you wanted to pay them 100 bucks wholesale for a revolver, Uberti would build a gun for you, and the fit and finish would reflect it! The more you pay up front, the better they finish. Of course, with Beretta in the picture now, that may have changed to some extent. Still, there were a LOT of dog clones running around in the 70's and 80's that Aldo was directly responsible for.

Frankly, my "leg" safety never worked for beans, and I ended up pulling it out, and having the hammer welded up and the notches recut (I dimly recall this gazmatcho working IN the safety notch). All in all, it sucked, and I was THRILLED to see the two position base pins appear. At least those could be removed and replaced with a standard pin.

 

[MrAcheson]

It may take a while to see if they continue to use the same Italian lock work parts that have gained such a reputation for poor quality and metalurgy.

Wow, I was pretty into CAS for a while and this is the first time I have heard this. The Uberti clones have most of the common problems with SAAs, but thats not their fault. A lot of people felt they were better buys than the Colt guns.

 

[mec]

From The Custom Revolver by Hamilton Bowen , page 51:

" The Italian revolvers are not without their own ailments.....Hands are usually too soft and prone to burring. Springs are too hard and prone to breakage.

... The trick in dealing with replicas is to buy the best guns available and then refit them with domestically produced hammers, triggers, bolts hands and low pressure springs...."

At the time The Custom Revolver was published, USFA was still using Italian lockwork and Bowen routinely replaced these parts too. He was very pleased when USFA began getting all parts from domestic suppliers.

 

[Nightcrawler]

How tough are these guns?

I mean, sure they're not strong enough to handle Ruger +P loads, but what about the stuff that's safe in my S&W 25-5?

I mean, can you shoot anything stouter than Cowboy ammo?

 

[Josey]

There are MANY well-documented revolver explosions in CAS revolvers. Clones do account for most of these KBs. Rugers have been pushed beyond their limits also. The clones tend to become hand grenades when pushed. Rugers have been blown up. Often reloads are faulted, some factory ammunition IS too much for clones. That is why most companies publish disclaimers against using anything other than CAS loads. Rodent flatulence is better than a KB!

 

[Jim March]

Most of the solid-frame SAA-pattern clones (as distinct from the Schofields or whatever!) are *supposed* to be able to take a 250grain hardcast lead to about 950 - 1,000fps from a 5.5" tube, as long as the powder charge doesn't produce a crazy pressure spike (read: you've picked the right powder to get there). Bufallo Bore is supposedly working on such a load to take maximum effect from an SAA pattern or S&W 25. That's the sort of load John Linebaugh recommends in these guns for "woods carry" or hunting.

Jacketed, drop that to maybe 900 or a hair more at that weight, more if you drop the weight (Winchester Silvertip is a 225 at 925ish(?), Cor-Bon's most popular 45LC defensive JHP is a 200grain @1,100).

Even the Ubertis can handle at least limited diets at these levels, at least any somewhat recent production. There may be older Italians (Uberti and/or Armi San Marco) that shouldn't. The Rodeos can probably take limitless amounts, due both to metalurgy and a very slightly oversize-from-SAA-spec cylinder.

A lot of the "blowups" are happening with cheapo stuff people buy to cut costs. Ammo that's listed as a 225 lead @750fps will do just fine in any of these guns, right up until you get the one in 1,000 that's double-charged ...or you run into a primer-only reject that stuffs a round halfway down the barrel and you're moving too fast to notice . Either way, better have a Ruger and even then all bets are off.

Folks, buy GOOD reloads (at a minimum!) or roll your own. Georgia Arms has a good rep, as do others (Miwall I think?). "Joe's Ammo In A Baggie" at a gun show table or shooting range is a total crapshoot.

 

[Nightcrawler]

So....loads like Winchester Silvertips, Remington JHP, Cor-Bon's defensive load (200gr @ 1100) (and the identical Georgia Arms load) would be fine in a USFA Rodeo? I mean, the cylinder walls of my 25-5 are pretty thin, too, but it's tough enough to handle one of Cor-Bon's hunting loads (specifically designed for the 25-5....a 300-something grain bullet at 950 feet per second or so).

 

[Jim March]

So....loads like Winchester Silvertips, Remington JHP, Cor-Bon's defensive load (200gr @ 1100) (and the identical Georgia Arms load) would be fine in a USFA Rodeo?

Yup. They'll probably eat huge amounts of same without a problem, even the Cor-Bon 200 which is probably the hottest thing out there that isn't into "Ruger/Thomson ONLY!!!" territory.

Italian SAAs, well, I'd keep the numbers of same down but if I was carrying for street defense, I wouldn't hesitate to load these.

I mean, the cylinder walls of my 25-5 are pretty thin, too, but it's tough enough to handle one of Cor-Bon's hunting loads (specifically designed for the 25-5....a 300-something grain bullet at 950 feet per second or so).

Well the 25-5 can actually cope with limited amounts of even hotter stuff...300grain @ 1,100 or even more without "blowing up". The reason you don't want to do that unless there's a dire need is that it tears hell out of the ejector star/ratchet/hand assembly first, and then starts warping the crane. The *cylinder* won't cut loose until long after the gun becomes as loose as a box of marbles from the shaking.

Dunno for sure, but I'd bet the Rodeo is in the same boat. If you had some Cor-Bon "Ruger Only!" 45LC+P monsters and a Rodeo, and were under threat of bear attack then ya, load 'em. They're going to degrade the gun's life (maybe *seriously*) but I'll betcha it won't grenade on you.

I wouldn't try that with a Uberti though.