MrAcheson
Member
"I know I didn't double charge those reloads! I know I didn't!" is a common exclamation after a kb! in CAS.
Best Western Sixgun: AWA, Uberti, or USFA?
- Thread starter Lone Star
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"I know I didn't double charge those reloads! I know I didn't!" is a common exclamation after a kb! in CAS.
Jim March
Member
Extra comment: one of the most famous gun blowups of all time was when Elmer Keith, very early in his ballistics experiment life (1920ish?) managed to grenade a 45LC Colt SAA with a 300grainer and a whole lotta God knows what powder.
He went to the 44Spl afterwards for TWO reasons: improved case design and thicker cylinder walls.
It was the first that mattered more, and today's 45LC shells are NOT the old balloon-head design (like a scaled-up rimfire converted to centerfire) but rather they're "carved" in the more modern style just like everything else 'cept for rimfire.
If Elmer had had access to modern 45LC shells, he might have stuck with the 45. As it was, we had to wait until Dick Casull, John Linebaugh and others fully explored what slow powder and strong guns (and shells) were capable of.
With the Rodeo (and all other USFA all-American-production SAAs) we have good metalurgy and a slightly oversize cylinder - and modern shells. Plus a dead-simple lockwork with no cutaways for transfer bars'n'stuff.
I'll bet good money we haven't really explored what that puppy is capable of.
He went to the 44Spl afterwards for TWO reasons: improved case design and thicker cylinder walls.
It was the first that mattered more, and today's 45LC shells are NOT the old balloon-head design (like a scaled-up rimfire converted to centerfire) but rather they're "carved" in the more modern style just like everything else 'cept for rimfire.
If Elmer had had access to modern 45LC shells, he might have stuck with the 45. As it was, we had to wait until Dick Casull, John Linebaugh and others fully explored what slow powder and strong guns (and shells) were capable of.
With the Rodeo (and all other USFA all-American-production SAAs) we have good metalurgy and a slightly oversize cylinder - and modern shells. Plus a dead-simple lockwork with no cutaways for transfer bars'n'stuff.
I'll bet good money we haven't really explored what that puppy is capable of.
Nightcrawler
Member
Thanks for the info, Mr. March! I've been wondering if a really traditionally Single Action wouldn't be fine for my own uses, and I feel a lot better knowing that my preferred loads won't grenade the USFA Rodeo. Still might get a Vaquero, but the Rodeo is a serious contender now, for when I eventually buy a single action .45 Colt revolver.
Jim March
Member
Ya. I'm personally barking up the same tree, soon I hope 
.
A point to consider though: take the new 4.68" barrel Bird's Head gripped Vaquero and stick a SuperBlackHawk hammer on it, and your overall handling becomes very close (functionally, as far as reach to the trigger/hammer) as an SAA pattern. Esp. if you run thinner "Gunfighter" grip panels by Eagle Grips.
Not an *exact* fit, but...you'd have a sixth shot and your loads can go as thermonuclear as the New Model action allows...which is pretty damned hot (325grain hardcast @ 1,300 in factory loads).
Yes, you'll probably have to send the cylinder off to be throated ($30ish). Yes, the front sight windage may be off, although it doesn't matter to me because I want to get Jack Huntington to cut it off and do a dovetailed XS Sights Small Dot Tritium while opening up the rear a bit.
But for raw power in a small package, that'd be damned hard to beat.
.A point to consider though: take the new 4.68" barrel Bird's Head gripped Vaquero and stick a SuperBlackHawk hammer on it, and your overall handling becomes very close (functionally, as far as reach to the trigger/hammer) as an SAA pattern. Esp. if you run thinner "Gunfighter" grip panels by Eagle Grips.
Not an *exact* fit, but...you'd have a sixth shot and your loads can go as thermonuclear as the New Model action allows...which is pretty damned hot (325grain hardcast @ 1,300 in factory loads).
Yes, you'll probably have to send the cylinder off to be throated ($30ish). Yes, the front sight windage may be off, although it doesn't matter to me because I want to get Jack Huntington to cut it off and do a dovetailed XS Sights Small Dot Tritium
while opening up the rear a bit.But for raw power in a small package, that'd be damned hard to beat.
Nightcrawler
Member
Well, I don't shoot a lot of the uber-loads. The Cor-Bon light-magnum load out of my 6" 25-5 is stout enough, even with Pachmayr rubber grips.
It'd be anti-traditional, but a second cylinder in .45ACP would just be terriffic, especially in a non-Ruger revolver that can't handle the +P+ loads anyway.
It'd be anti-traditional, but a second cylinder in .45ACP would just be terriffic, especially in a non-Ruger revolver that can't handle the +P+ loads anyway.
Jim March
Member
Some of the Uberti resellers such as Cimmarron sell 45ACP cylinders as an accessory that could probably be fitted to a Rodeo easily enough, at least by a gunsmith.
Josey
member
I would ask myself a question first. Why do USFAs only come in 38 Special and 45 Long Colt? They cannot handle magnum pressures! There is NOT a 44 Magnum or 357 Magnum USFA because they cannot hold up to the beating of magnum loads. There are 0 clones from Italy or the US or Brazil in 44 Magnum for a reason. J. P. Sauer & Sohn did make a revolver that could stand up to magnum pressures on a regular basis. Ruger makes a single action that can stand up to magnum pressures on a regular basis. USFA does not. I wouldn't push a USFA.
Grayrock
Member
I have heard this said more than once. Also, that Rugers are not "authentic". I am leaning toward a Vaquero, myself. Price, strength, quality, safety PLUS it "looks" like a SAA- to me. What am I not seeing that makes it so different and undesireable by purists? If it is internal can someone tell the difference from a few feet away? I have also heard the Rugers don't "click" right. Something about SAA's clicking 4 times. The Rugers walk like a duck and quack like a duck for me!
The Ruger is a physically bigger gun, and in some ways less well balanced than a classic SAA, although I do like the feel of my Bisley .45 Blackhawk.
The buzz on USFA is excellent - however I would still spring for a Colt, because if you order a USFA polished and case hardened they cost as much as a Colt.
Freedom Arms Model 97 I have not handled, but it is a smaller framed gun than their famous Model 83, and is doubtless well made.
The Colt New Frontier SAA is one of my favorites - I will own one in .44 Special someday. The adjustable sights I gather are not legal for SASS, but they are great looking guns.
The buzz on USFA is excellent - however I would still spring for a Colt, because if you order a USFA polished and case hardened they cost as much as a Colt.
Freedom Arms Model 97 I have not handled, but it is a smaller framed gun than their famous Model 83, and is doubtless well made.
The Colt New Frontier SAA is one of my favorites - I will own one in .44 Special someday. The adjustable sights I gather are not legal for SASS, but they are great looking guns.
Nightcrawler
Member
Winchester Silvertips are hardly "pushing it". They're just barely above .45ACP power levels. Cor-Bon's 200gr stuff is hotter, but still well within SAAMI .45 Colt levels.
Josey
member
Adjustable sighted handguns are legal. It places a shooter in Modern class. White outline with a brass bead front sight would not be allowable though.
Jim March
Member
Some folks can afford to buy guns that will ONLY be used for CAS/SASS.
Others can't! They have to think about what other practical uses a CAS/SASS type arm might be pressed into and with appropriate loads, a Rodeo is a perfectly reasonable choice for a 48-state woods carry/rural self defense/farm sidearm.
Others can't! They have to think about what other practical uses a CAS/SASS type arm might be pressed into and with appropriate loads, a Rodeo is a perfectly reasonable choice for a 48-state woods carry/rural self defense/farm sidearm.
As for whether USFA guns can stand .357 pressures, I can't say, but recall that when Colt resumed production of the SAA in 1955, the two available calibers were....38 Special and .45 Colt.
And the SAA has been made in .357 Magnum, both before WW II and after demand arose for it in the postwar period. Maybe if enough people ask why USFA doesn't make a .357, they will. Especially if someone suggests that it infers that their steel and heat treatment can't handle it! That casts suspicion on their entire line.
And I think .44 Special and .44/40 demand should be brought to their attention. .44 Magnum is out: the frame and cylinder size don't merit it, just as with the original Colts. Ruger simply made a bigger gun when he went to a .44 Magnum, and with the New Model, began using that big frame for ALL his Blackhawk calibers. Many still feel that it was a mistake, although production economy undoubtedly took precedence over customer desires.
Lone Star
And the SAA has been made in .357 Magnum, both before WW II and after demand arose for it in the postwar period. Maybe if enough people ask why USFA doesn't make a .357, they will. Especially if someone suggests that it infers that their steel and heat treatment can't handle it! That casts suspicion on their entire line.
And I think .44 Special and .44/40 demand should be brought to their attention. .44 Magnum is out: the frame and cylinder size don't merit it, just as with the original Colts. Ruger simply made a bigger gun when he went to a .44 Magnum, and with the New Model, began using that big frame for ALL his Blackhawk calibers. Many still feel that it was a mistake, although production economy undoubtedly took precedence over customer desires.
Lone Star
Stainz
Member
From what I have heard, recall that I have never personally held a USFA Rodeo in my hands, if I still wanted a SAA clone (That urge is still here... just suppressed now.), it would still be a Rodeo. If I wanted a SA revolver for possible SASS/CAS, woods use, plinking, etc, I'd get a Ruger. You didn't say what your friend has in the Ruger line. They have such a varied offering: Vaquero's in Blackhawk grips, Bisley grips, and Bird's Head grips, for example. The BH's and SBH's, too. SS gets my attention... as does American made (... like the USFA Rodeo.). More important is the truely safe six shot capability. Rugers can be lunky and crude... but they work... and work... and work... and, they'll eat anything.
I am over my SAA desire... I love my 4.625" BHG Vaquero! My 5.5" SS Bisley is jealous... all .45 Colts here. I wish I could find something well-made in .44 Russian...
Stainz
I am over my SAA desire... I love my 4.625" BHG Vaquero! My 5.5" SS Bisley is jealous... all .45 Colts here. I wish I could find something well-made in .44 Russian...
Stainz
Funny thing. The USFA cylinder is bigger than a colt. Nevertheless, I dropped a 1910 vintage cylinder into my USFA and, in spite of a small amount of end-shake, it functioned. ( No, I did not shoot it.)
The USFA cylinder is THIS MUCH bigger than a colt but
It measured Exactly The Same as a Uberti we had on hand. Could it be that the measurements are the same because USFAs have some Italian ancestry????. In any case, the size difference is insignificant from a standpoint of strength.
The USFA cylinder is THIS MUCH bigger than a colt but
It measured Exactly The Same as a Uberti we had on hand. Could it be that the measurements are the same because USFAs have some Italian ancestry????. In any case, the size difference is insignificant from a standpoint of strength.
Otony
Member
Josey,
Sometimes you make me wonder about your responses?!?! USFA does make single actions in .357 Magnum! They don't chamber the Rodeo as such for their own marketing reasons, but their other revolvers are available in .357 as a matter of course. No one would want to chamber a Colt sized SA in .44 magnum, it isn't large enough in the frame and cylinder to safely handle the cartridge. That is what you want a Ruger for, brute strength. That doesn't make the Ruger a better revolver, just one able to handle .44 mag pressures. USFA frames, BTW, are CNC machines from bar stock, not cast. All parts are American made, no Italian parts to be found at all.
I own many Rugers, and have owned many Colts, and can safely assure you, the USFA is light years ahead of either, in both fit and finish. If you respect it for what it is (a Colt clone built to higher standards than a Colt) and load it accordingly, it is as safe as any handgun on the market. And that includes any .357 loads you might want to try.
Mine happens to be a .44 Special, and since I have .45 Colt Ruger for use with heavy loads, I use my .44 Special with loads just a bit warmer than factory, 240 grains at about 900 fps. No problems there, and I have no need for anything more......from this gun.
Saxon Pig, I agree, Bowen seems to think that there is a need for mucho machine work at healthy prices on virtually any gun. He has, however, noted many times that the USFA is the best production SA on the market. For a fellow who considers a couple of grand for a revolver to be the opening price, that is saying quite a bit. And the USFA's are available with a color cased frame if you so choose, just not in the lower priced Rodeo version. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choices, as they say.
Sometimes you make me wonder about your responses?!?! USFA does make single actions in .357 Magnum! They don't chamber the Rodeo as such for their own marketing reasons, but their other revolvers are available in .357 as a matter of course. No one would want to chamber a Colt sized SA in .44 magnum, it isn't large enough in the frame and cylinder to safely handle the cartridge. That is what you want a Ruger for, brute strength. That doesn't make the Ruger a better revolver, just one able to handle .44 mag pressures. USFA frames, BTW, are CNC machines from bar stock, not cast. All parts are American made, no Italian parts to be found at all.
I own many Rugers, and have owned many Colts, and can safely assure you, the USFA is light years ahead of either, in both fit and finish. If you respect it for what it is (a Colt clone built to higher standards than a Colt) and load it accordingly, it is as safe as any handgun on the market. And that includes any .357 loads you might want to try.
Mine happens to be a .44 Special, and since I have .45 Colt Ruger for use with heavy loads, I use my .44 Special with loads just a bit warmer than factory, 240 grains at about 900 fps. No problems there, and I have no need for anything more......from this gun.
Saxon Pig, I agree, Bowen seems to think that there is a need for mucho machine work at healthy prices on virtually any gun. He has, however, noted many times that the USFA is the best production SA on the market. For a fellow who considers a couple of grand for a revolver to be the opening price, that is saying quite a bit. And the USFA's are available with a color cased frame if you so choose, just not in the lower priced Rodeo version. Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choices, as they say.
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Josey
member
My understanding is that USFAs are not available in 357 Magnum. You can custom order one in 357 Magnum. IIRC, the hammer requires a firing pin modification. A 357 Magnum primer can back out, hang up and freeze the action. A USFA is a good replica/clone of a Colt SAA. It is limited though. Have you seen a approved for +P loads rating anywhere that I haven't? The USFA does have a Uberti heritage. I would NEVER trust any clone with hot magnum loads. A Ruger, Sauer, Freedom Arms and even a EAA can digest magnum, +P and hunting loads with aplomb. If I were to want a single action revolver for a HD, SD, CCW, hunting, farm use, CAS and target shooting, a Ruger would be my only choice. Which Ruger? I would have many choices to make.
Otony
Member
Josey,
Check the USFA catalog. Except for the Rodeo, every model USFA produces is available in .357 magnum. With NO hammer or firing pin modifications.
BTW, this isn't an assumption on my part. I happen to be friends with the sales manager at USFA
As for the Uberti heritage, why that is perfectly correct, but no longer applicable. USFA manufactures EVERYTHING in house nowadays. I fail to see how their former use of Italian parts has anything at all to do with their current products, which, once again, are CNC machined in house from bar stock. What does that have to do with the formerly used Uberti parts, I ask you? The stel in a USFA is much better than the steel in your Italian clones, and I would venture to ad, better than Colt's as well.
BTW, are not Colt SAA's also available in .357? I find it odd that in the early 70's, during my first visit to the Uberti factory, that there were crates of raw parts destined for Hartford, Connecticut. Care to venture a guess as to what was inside. Hint, hint, supposedly US built Colts had more than one part that started out as a raw forging in Uberti's place. How do you suppose those ever stood up to .357 pressures? Why, simple. Specification of better steel.
As I wrote before, Uberti will build you anything you want, including better grade guns and parts.
Check the USFA catalog. Except for the Rodeo, every model USFA produces is available in .357 magnum. With NO hammer or firing pin modifications.
BTW, this isn't an assumption on my part. I happen to be friends with the sales manager at USFA
As for the Uberti heritage, why that is perfectly correct, but no longer applicable. USFA manufactures EVERYTHING in house nowadays. I fail to see how their former use of Italian parts has anything at all to do with their current products, which, once again, are CNC machined in house from bar stock. What does that have to do with the formerly used Uberti parts, I ask you? The stel in a USFA is much better than the steel in your Italian clones, and I would venture to ad, better than Colt's as well.
BTW, are not Colt SAA's also available in .357? I find it odd that in the early 70's, during my first visit to the Uberti factory, that there were crates of raw parts destined for Hartford, Connecticut. Care to venture a guess as to what was inside. Hint, hint, supposedly US built Colts had more than one part that started out as a raw forging in Uberti's place. How do you suppose those ever stood up to .357 pressures? Why, simple. Specification of better steel.
As I wrote before, Uberti will build you anything you want, including better grade guns and parts.
Josey
member
Otony, correct. American Arms imported a 1873 Buckhorn model manufactured by Uberti in 44 Magnum. It was considerably upsized though in all dimensions. The USFA uses a exact copy of the Colt hammer and firing pin, correct? Colt had problems with 357 Magnum primers backing out and freezing the actions. I have heard that rumour about Uberti buiding Colt SAAs before. Uberti WAS building second generatio Colt black powder revolvers for Colt. I am not knocking USFA. They are a fine revolver and so is Colt and Pietta or Uberti. I ask you to look at the web between cylinders from a Ruger and a USFA, another clone or even a genuine Colt. That thickness between chambers says it all. The frame hasn't got that much to do with it, transfer bars, action types or much else. When a KB occurs, the webbing is what makes the difference in the strength. The last time I measured a USFA beside a Uberti, the cylinders were matching in dimensions. A Colt cylinder is smaller in dimensions from 5% to 10% in different areas.
Nightcrawler
Member
I feel responsible for this debate, somehow.
All I asked is whether or not the USFA Rodeo can handle loads like Winchester Silvertips and Cor-Bon's 200 grain, the same loads that are safe in my S&W 25-5.
I never intend to put the Ruger-only hunting loads through it.
All I asked is whether or not the USFA Rodeo can handle loads like Winchester Silvertips and Cor-Bon's 200 grain, the same loads that are safe in my S&W 25-5.
I never intend to put the Ruger-only hunting loads through it.
Josey
member
Nightcrawler, I have enjoyed the debate. I see many Colt v Ruger threads. This has been refreshing. Civil and a discussion, no fussin' or cussin'. I like the USFA because it does give people an option besides using a genuine Colt SAA in CAS competition. The USFA is the best clone on the market. I appreciate the USFA Omnipotent revolvers myself.
Otony
Member
I agree with Josey. No name calling, even if we disagree.
I would venture to say that if we were talking to each other, our points could be given a bit more easily. Sometimes all the typing is a bit much, as I only use two or three fingers.
In any event, whether or not we agree on the main issues, I will happily continue to use my USFA. Oh, and Josey, in thousands of rounds of HOT .357, my 2nd generation Colt NEVER gave me a bit of trouble
with Josey. No name calling, even if we disagree.I would venture to say that if we were talking to each other, our points could be given a bit more easily. Sometimes all the typing is a bit much, as I only use two or three fingers.
In any event, whether or not we agree on the main issues, I will happily continue to use my USFA. Oh, and Josey, in thousands of rounds of HOT .357, my 2nd generation Colt NEVER gave me a bit of trouble
Otony
Member
Hi mec,
Oh yes, I have seen Jeff's article. I have been a fan/friend of his ever since the Taser/Shot Show incident a few years back
Oh yes, I have seen Jeff's article. I have been a fan/friend of his ever since the Taser/Shot Show incident a few years back
Grayrock
Member
Josey, I just looked at the Omni Potent revolvers. I like them. Are they allowed in SASS events? I must confess again that I like the nickel/engraved version- but only when I win the lottery!
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