better shtf caliber 223 or 308?

[pipboy]

My next rilfe will fit in a shtf situation so my options (due to my owning two weapons in 7.62 39) and mostly 223 or 308 strictly on ammo what would be the better round for all around survival combat transport availibilty accuracy etc

 

[sacp81170a]

I'd go with the .308 for a number of reasons, range, suitability for different types of game, easy availability, and one other factor: reloading components. It depends on how long a shtf scenario you're planning for, but the .308 supports many more bullet weights and types, is a well recognized medium to large game round and is as available as .223, although not as cheaply. What terrain elements are likely to be found in your area? .223 seems to perform very well at 200m and less, while .308 is better for longer ranges and penetration. .308 will penetrate brick facades and most cinder block construction, not an insignificant advantage in an urban environment.

The advantage of weight savings and round count pales in comparison to not being able to penetrate the cover any goblins might be hiding behind, IMHO.

 

[Jackal]

.223 Ammo more readily available and for all practical purposes within it's range limit, plenty lethal. However, my ideal round in shtf would be the 7.62x39..

 

[.45&TKD]

..all around survival combat transport...

If I was on foot and expecting alot of engagements, .223 because of weight.

Otherwise, .308, if you don't have to hump it or you are not expecting alot of engagements; distance is your friend.

 

[JWarren]

I have gone with 308 as my heavy hitting SHTF caliber. Frankly, 223 isn't all that practical in south MS. If you want a round that also doubles as a hunting round, 223 isn't ideal here. Your game choices (generally speaking) is small game like squirrels and rabbits where 223 = splat, or deer where 223 very well means tracking a wounded animal for a mile or so. I've seen people have to do considerable tracking from a poor shot even using 30-06 180 grains-- it does happen.

I won't get into the lethality debate of 223, but will only say that it is MY preference to shoot a deer-sized game animal with something over 100 grains. (I shoot Winchester 150 grain Ballistic Silvertips for hunting).

I'll also point out that in MS, it is illegal to shoot a deer with any cartridge smaller than 24 caliber. While a 223 could kill a deer when there are no game wardens around in a SHTF, why would I want a round that I couldn't use in a typical Non-SHTF hunting season?

I've been through the ammo availability issue in my own mind as well. I agree that 223 will be plentiful, but so will 308, and even 7.62X39 if you want to stock up. I personally have chosen as my primary calibers to stock up on as:

308
7.62x39
12 gauge
22 rimfire
9mm

Oh, and just for the heck of it, I have 7.62x54R for my Finnish M28/30 Mosin Nagant.

From my experiece, it doesn't really matter what rounds may be available in a SHTF. It matters what you HAVE on hand. When I went through Hurricane Katrina, the FIRST things that was prohibited to be sold was firearms and ammunition. Once the state of emergency was declared, all firearms and ammuntion was taken from the shelves and locked away--- even if you COULD find a store open.

Because of this, I feel it is simply better to go with fewer calibers to stock for and just get as much ammuntion and components as you feel comfortable with.


-- John

 

[DMK]

In any SHTF situation I can think of, you'll have a lot to do and a lot of things on your mind. You'll want a weapon that you can keep nearby or preferably on you at all times. Most of these situations are temporary. I can't think of a reason where you'd need a gun with a range over 200 yards.

So, I keep a lightweight, handy carbine in 223. You do what you want.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I chose the .223/5.56. It is effective w/ good shot placement, affordable to buy in bulk, store, and train with, you can carry more, faster follow up shots because of lighter recoil, etc...

 

[doubleg]

I think an in between caliber would be best. Like 6.8 remington, so you can have a higher power bullet and still have a large capacity.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Yes, but factoring in which will be easier to get your hands on in a time of need is a critical point. On this continent, .223 is probably the best choice: There are tons of it around, both retail and very importantly in military ammunition stores. In the third world, 7.62x39 would probably be a better choice, as it's the caliber of the Most Common Rifle on the Face of the Earth, the AK-47 (among others).

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Get an AR 15 in .223...Its much more available and alot cheaper. If you are using it for "SHTF" you are going to want to practice with it alot as well, right? .223 will allow you to do just that.

 

[DMK]

From my experiece, it doesn't really matter what rounds may be available in a SHTF. It matters what you HAVE on hand. When I went through Hurricane Katrina, the FIRST things that was prohibited to be sold was firearms and ammunition. Once the state of emergency was declared, all firearms and ammuntion was taken from the shelves and locked away--- even if you COULD find a store open.

Experience is wisdom.

Keeping a single box or two of whatever caliber you choose is not the best plan of action. Myself, I keep a few 50cal ammo cans full of loaded mags (of course I have a few rifles ready to equip my family with).

 

[PaladinX13]

I don't know if it's "better", but I'd go with .223... you'd be able to carry more rounds until (if?) resupply. It's very controllable and dangerous out to reasonable defense ranges (CQB and beyond; but short of long range "sniping").

While it's true .308 is probably better for larger game, I think there's many many alternate sources of food to use before you need to resort to hunting game. If we're talking about a meal to just tied you over, then .223 will work on a variety of small to medium sized game.

I'd go with whatever you shoot better. If the SreallyHTF, then the last thing you want to worry about is your familiarity with a rifle you only use three times a year. I might even go as far as to say, if you shoot a .22LR rifle daily and can hit dimes on the run with one hand and your eyes closed, then- by all means- take that with you, not the assault/battle rifle you never shoot and can't remember exactly how to field-strip....

 

[Jenrick]

One additional thought: the complexity of the system you'll be using it in.

In a true SHTF situation you may not be able to clean your weapon often using proper supplies. Both rounds are available in weapons that have robust actions that require little maintenance, so just something to think about.

-Jenrick

 

[JWarren]

PaladinX13 wrote:

While it's true .308 is probably better for larger game, I think there's many many alternate sources of food to use before you need to resort to hunting game. If we're talking about a meal to just tied you over, then .223 will work on a variety of small to medium sized game.

I agree completely. We were in a "SHTF" for 8 weeks, and I assure you that I never considered the need to start hunting for my food. Besides, the neighbor's dogs were always over and seemed well-fed....

I always mention the hunting aspect regarding this because there are some that think about basically a Post-Apocalyptic World when they think SHTF. I personally see localized events far more likely and my preparations tend to veer in that direction. But I try to cover all bases in discussion.

Another reason I bring up hunting is because all my firearms pull double-duty as non-SHTF firearms as well. I have a hard time buying a rifle that I can't use for other functions as well. Even my AK's have proven themselves to be capable "brush" rifles for hunting deer (with soft point bullets and red-dot scopes).

But that is me. A lot of people do not need rifles to do multiple jobs. For them, I think that having a rifle they are comfortable with, competent with, and have ammunition for, will suffice.

PaladinX13 wrote:

If the SreallyHTF, then the last thing you want to worry about is your familiarity with a rifle you only use three times a year.

Excellent point! That was one reason in my deciding that all my primary go-to rifles operate on the Kalishnakov system. I don't have to ever think about ergonomics, magazine insertion, or safety manipulation. They all work the same.

Currently, I use a Saiga 308 for my heavy duty rifle, and have a couple AKs in fixed and folding stocks for general purpose/brush rifles. I've even considered going with the Saiga 12 gauge for my scatter gun. If I ever got a 223, I think it would be a Saiga 223 as well.


John

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

That depends on what part of country you live in, how well you shoot, how much recoil you are comfortable, and how much you can spend on ammo.

If you live in the mountain states, or great plains,get a .308. If you live in the Pacific Northwest, the South, Industrial Midwest, or similar areas probably .223.

If you have less money, get .223 (it's cheaper). If you have the scratch, get the .308. It you don't mind recoil get .308, if not get .223. I think you get the idea.

 

[DMK]

For defending your home, probably almost any reasonable caliber will work. I've read and heard a lot of stories about folks using guns to defend their homes in a lot of various domestic SHTF situations over the last decade or so. I have never read any where the home owner shot anyone. At most, they fired in the air. Most of the time, merely standing ground with an ominous weapon was quite enough to convince would be aggressors to move along. Now, my luck I'd probably get a more determined miscreant, but I'm starting to think that's a rarity.

Nonetheless, if I wasn't prepared already, I'd look for something affordable right now and stock up at least a few hundred rounds, plus a few hundred more to practice with. One of my fears is that some future legislation will make ammo of all kinds expensive or difficult to get.

For a very interesting view of a SHTF situation, read these experiences in the link that follows. This person shows very convincing reasons why a few good handguns might also be a very important weapons to have handy.

http://www.buildanark.net/survival_stories/ferfal1_1.html

 

[The Deer Hunter]

223=cheaper and more avail.
.308=more expensive but kills real well

both are nato

 

[CWL]

My suggestion would be a good .22lr rifle to put food on the table after the hard times are over.

Your 7.62x39's will either get you thru the really bad times, or you're going to be dead. Do you really think that you will survive more than a few engagements if there are rampaging armies wandering around?

With that said, I think you really want to buy a new rifle, just buy the one that you like best.

 

[g5reality]

my choices

I have both. .223 for shorter range .308 for longer range. I prefer the .308 for both my M1A and soon to be purchased SOCOM-2.

I take the mini-14 over the AR. I like the platform it's built on and the newer mini's have a heavier barrel and offer better accuracy than older mini's and the AR platform. Both shoot the .223 round and both have 10,20,30+ round magazines.

I also believe the mini is more durable than the AR.

 

[gdvan01]

<rant>

I can honestly say that I've never seen so many concerns over 'feces colliding with the oscillator'.

People - there is little chance that anyone currently registered on this board that will have to concern themselves with any type of waste hitting anything that is moving in a circular fashion. There ain't gonna be any frickin' zombies or commies knockin' on yer dang doors in this lifetime.

</rant>


IBTL

 

[JWarren]

mordechaianiliewicz wrote:

If you live in the mountain states, or great plains,get a .308. If you live in the Pacific Northwest, the South, Industrial Midwest, or similar areas probably .223.

Actually, I have to disagree regarding the South… I’m about as South as you can get without water wings, so I have a tad of first hand familiarity with this area.

I won’t get lengthy in my reasoning here, but please read Post #5 on this tread to see why It is my opinion that 223 is the most ideal SHTF caliber in the Southern US. By the way, South CAN include Texas, which may be what you are thinking about, but a lot of people are more inclined to consider it South West. The terrain considerably different there as opposed to Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, etc...


All the best!

John

 

[10-Ring]

The closest I've come to SHTF were the King Riots in LA many moons ago and in the urban setting a reliable pistol, pump shotgun & a 308 rifle would take care of all your needs YMMV

 

[JWarren]

10-Ring,

I just saw a documentary on the King riots. Glad you are alright.

My only SHTF was 8 weeks in Hurricane Katrina's "ground zero." That was nothing like the issues you faced. The helicopter footage of those riots was a PERFECT example of when we talk about civil unrest.


And the antis TRULY believe that dialing 911 will keep you alive....


All the best!

John

 

[.45&TKD]

I just saw a documentary on the King riots.

I lived and worked in Los Angeles during the King Riots.
It was amazing how quickly that society fell apart.
I remember the National Guard was delayed in there deployment because they did not have any ammo.

Stock up!

 

[rangerruck]

dont know if you have ever been in the military, but if you ever humped a couple hundred rounds of 223 , and then been , say , an asst. gunner for a 60 crew, and carried a couple hundred rounds of 308, you will deff feel a huge diff.