monotonous_iterancy
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I've seen one of those break action .223s. But, it is break action, and .223 isn't exactly a .300 win mag.
Budget home defense rifle
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allaroundhunter
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No, because the shape of the bullet, plus rounds stacked end-to-end in a tube magazine is a recipe for disaster...
monotonous_iterancy
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Oh yeah! I forgot about bullet points resting on the primer.
The chef's knife? It's useful in the kitchen and other uses. A weapon in every room.
AKElroy
Member
Much of this conversation has surrounded finding guns suitable for the OP's friend's lack of gun knowledge. Single shot because it is uncomplicated, no handgun because they are harder to shoot, no 12 gage because they kick to much. Over penetration concerns, because obviously she will miss far more than connect, all due to a LACK OF TRAINING.
How about she seek proper training FIRST, and then make a more informed decision? My wife is not a firefighter, she is 5' nothin, 120' soaking wet, and can straight -up RUN a 12 gage pump, handguns, you name it. It did not take long, nor was it especially expensive. If you were nearby, I would happily volunteer, as would many on this site.
We are talking about this young lady FIREFIGHTER as if she is an 86 year old granny training her long-gone husband's trusty single-shot 16 gage with trembling, feeble hands, from a wheelchair, at the front door of her home in the hood. Just silly. Your able-bodied friend will be able to shoot anything she likes just fine, assuming she has some BASIC TRAINING.
That should obviously include, as was mentioned, establishing layers of defense that make a gun the last possible option. Like running, a gun is what we go to once the defensive plan FAILS.
How about she seek proper training FIRST, and then make a more informed decision? My wife is not a firefighter, she is 5' nothin, 120' soaking wet, and can straight -up RUN a 12 gage pump, handguns, you name it. It did not take long, nor was it especially expensive. If you were nearby, I would happily volunteer, as would many on this site.
We are talking about this young lady FIREFIGHTER as if she is an 86 year old granny training her long-gone husband's trusty single-shot 16 gage with trembling, feeble hands, from a wheelchair, at the front door of her home in the hood. Just silly. Your able-bodied friend will be able to shoot anything she likes just fine, assuming she has some BASIC TRAINING.
That should obviously include, as was mentioned, establishing layers of defense that make a gun the last possible option. Like running, a gun is what we go to once the defensive plan FAILS.
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A 10/22 wouldn't be my first choice, buy they are common and have no recoil. I would never suggest bluffing or depending on "intimidation factor". I do believe most home invaders fear being shot by anything larger than a bb gun.
It is not the home defender's job to hold invaders for police. Lethal threats should be treated as such. If the invader wants to run, let them go.
Some weapons are automatically less suited than others. I would not suggest a Mosin-Nagant, if for no other reason than finding rapid expansion loads would be difficult.
In general, .223 is one of my favorite HD calibers, and NEF does make an inexpensive single shot rifle. In this case, I believe the lower cost of .357 ammunition, and lower report/blast negate any small advantage the .223 might possibly have compared to a .357 carbine from the same company.
There are lots of things that can work. Practice and an absolute willingness to defend yourself are most important.
John
It is not the home defender's job to hold invaders for police. Lethal threats should be treated as such. If the invader wants to run, let them go.
Some weapons are automatically less suited than others. I would not suggest a Mosin-Nagant, if for no other reason than finding rapid expansion loads would be difficult.
In general, .223 is one of my favorite HD calibers, and NEF does make an inexpensive single shot rifle. In this case, I believe the lower cost of .357 ammunition, and lower report/blast negate any small advantage the .223 might possibly have compared to a .357 carbine from the same company.
There are lots of things that can work. Practice and an absolute willingness to defend yourself are most important.
John
34 years in law enforcment taught me a few things...
1. When someone pulls out a gun, most times the situation ends. No one wants to be shot.
2. Bird shot at apartment ranges generally puts a fist size hole in a human body. An ounce of lead is an ounce of lead.
3. Regarding bird shot, it is kind of hard to continue a fight when you are holding your guts in your hands after you belly has been ripped open. Never, ever saw anyone continue to be aggressive after being shot with bird shot. In my experience, they either sit down to wait for EMS or they run and we find them down the block bled out.
4. Any solid projectile will penetrate multiple rooms (that means multiple apartments) unless it hits something solid like a metal electrical box, fridge, stove etc. That includes all rifle rounds, .22s, handgun rounds etc. unless you are using pre-fragmented ammo.
5. Long guns in small apartments are difficult to manipulate effectively.
6. Hits count. I don't really care what caliber you use. Getting rounds on target is what stops the fight. No one wants to be shot. Getting shot hurts.
7.The best advice so far has been to upgrade security in the apartment. There are some cheap ways to do it. The 4 Ds of Security are Deter, Detect, Delay and Deny. "Deny" is your friend behind closed, locked, hardened bedroom door with a gun.
1. When someone pulls out a gun, most times the situation ends. No one wants to be shot.
2. Bird shot at apartment ranges generally puts a fist size hole in a human body. An ounce of lead is an ounce of lead.
3. Regarding bird shot, it is kind of hard to continue a fight when you are holding your guts in your hands after you belly has been ripped open. Never, ever saw anyone continue to be aggressive after being shot with bird shot. In my experience, they either sit down to wait for EMS or they run and we find them down the block bled out.
4. Any solid projectile will penetrate multiple rooms (that means multiple apartments) unless it hits something solid like a metal electrical box, fridge, stove etc. That includes all rifle rounds, .22s, handgun rounds etc. unless you are using pre-fragmented ammo.
5. Long guns in small apartments are difficult to manipulate effectively.
6. Hits count. I don't really care what caliber you use. Getting rounds on target is what stops the fight. No one wants to be shot. Getting shot hurts.
7.The best advice so far has been to upgrade security in the apartment. There are some cheap ways to do it. The 4 Ds of Security are Deter, Detect, Delay and Deny. "Deny" is your friend behind closed, locked, hardened bedroom door with a gun.
lobo9er
Member
If I was in an apt. a shotgun with bird shot would be my choice. Buy a pork shoulder wrap it in old jeans and shoot it at 10 yards with birdshot and then tell me it wouldn't stop a threat.
I see several recomendations for a 10/22 in here. Not a commonly recommended home defense round, but out of a rifle especially, nothing to sneeze at. I found this article regarding a 10/22 for defense and it made some good points:
http://graywolfsurvival.com/1869/why-22-best-home-defense-weapon/
If I had to use my 10/22 for defense I've got a few bx-25 25rd mags that I would fill with CCI Velociter ammo, and I don't think I'd fare too bad. A newbie could do a whole lot worse in choosing a weapon. At least with a 10/22 they could (in normal times) practice a lot cheaply. Even now, I've found bricks of .22 CCI Blazer available for between $29 - $39. And the standard 10rd capacity isn't that limiting if hi-caps aren't an option. Lots of different 10/22's available in nearly any configuration imaginable from mild to wild with many in the OP's budget range.
Just a thought...
http://graywolfsurvival.com/1869/why-22-best-home-defense-weapon/
If I had to use my 10/22 for defense I've got a few bx-25 25rd mags that I would fill with CCI Velociter ammo, and I don't think I'd fare too bad. A newbie could do a whole lot worse in choosing a weapon. At least with a 10/22 they could (in normal times) practice a lot cheaply. Even now, I've found bricks of .22 CCI Blazer available for between $29 - $39. And the standard 10rd capacity isn't that limiting if hi-caps aren't an option. Lots of different 10/22's available in nearly any configuration imaginable from mild to wild with many in the OP's budget range.
Just a thought...
Small birdshot is an irresponsible suggestion for home defense.
I was a small game hunter growing up. I have shot many living things at close range with #6 and #7 1/2 shot. I would not load a home defense shotgun with smaller than BB.
mac, some of my experience contradicts some of yours. I have seen, for example, a 130 grain .270 softpoint fragment after hitting the equivalent of a drywall wall. It did not completely penetrate the second wall: no "multiple apartments" penetrated. As a former infantryman, and Soldier with 2 deployments to combat zones, your statement about longarms being difficult to manipulate in small apartments does not ring true. My own experience with shotguns (12 and 20 gauges) also leads me to doubt the incredible efficacy so many bestow on absolutely any shotgun shell against human aggressors.
I also know someone who was shot in the abdomen from a few feet with a .410 birdshot shell. He was seriously injured, certainly...but he walked to the doctor's.
John
I was a small game hunter growing up. I have shot many living things at close range with #6 and #7 1/2 shot. I would not load a home defense shotgun with smaller than BB.
mac, some of my experience contradicts some of yours. I have seen, for example, a 130 grain .270 softpoint fragment after hitting the equivalent of a drywall wall. It did not completely penetrate the second wall: no "multiple apartments" penetrated. As a former infantryman, and Soldier with 2 deployments to combat zones, your statement about longarms being difficult to manipulate in small apartments does not ring true. My own experience with shotguns (12 and 20 gauges) also leads me to doubt the incredible efficacy so many bestow on absolutely any shotgun shell against human aggressors.
I also know someone who was shot in the abdomen from a few feet with a .410 birdshot shell. He was seriously injured, certainly...but he walked to the doctor's.
John
mdauben
Member
Actualy, Browning makes a lever action chambered in .223 Win. It uses a box magazine instead of a tubular one. Savage used to make a lever action that was chambered for some calibers commonly loaded with "pointy" bullets becuase it used a rotary magazine. Both of these are probably out of the OP's price range, though. The Browning has an MSRP of $800-900 and used examples of the Savage 99 routinly sell for $600 or more.
monotonous_iterancy
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Exactly. I guess some people connect "female" with "can't shoot a real gun". Women tend to out-shoot me.
Training is what I have in mind, although as I said, I don't exactly have the proper firearms. I could teach her to shoot in general, but I want to be able to let her try some options that she could actually use as a HD weapon and see what works for her.
Btw, I read that article about using .22s. It has some good points, and I'm thinking, maybe it's an option, I actually have an example she could practice with, but still, it just doesn't feel adequate enough.
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allaroundhunter
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I understand there are some, but I answered "no" because there are none within the OP's budget.
allaroundhunter
Member
Just because something will eventually work, doesn't mean it is the better choice for defense. In a defensive encounter the threat needs to be stopped ASAP. If a person is able to run down the block before dying, then they are perfectly capable of continuing a fight if they have the desire to.
Sidenote: Do I want to stand in front of a pellet gun? Heck no, maybe I should recommend it based on some people's line of reasoning...
Sidenote: Do I want to stand in front of a pellet gun? Heck no, maybe I should recommend it based on some people's line of reasoning...
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monotonous_iterancy
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The whole "stand in front of it" line of reasoning is silly. The criminal might go "ow." and still have the ability to stab you, or shoot you.
Second, what if they're on drugs? I'm sure it happens all the time, and then your weak ammo deterrent doesn't work at all.
And about the .22, even with hyper velocity rounds, I still have doubts. It will work, but there's a lot of things that work better, and penetration isn't the end all, be all. I remember seeing a documentary where they interviewed a WWII vet. He was at Normandy and got shot running up the beach, with a full sized rifle round mind you, and he didn't even realize it until he saw blood.
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lobo9er
Member
If he was a threat he wouldn't have been after. And I'd imagine he might have been able to walk if it was a 22. I respect your opinion, I just think for low recoil and penetration of walls in an apt for a young lady bird shot is a good place to start.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU
In my opinion I'd be as comfortable with birdshot as I would be with a 22lr.
denton
Member
Here's an alternative that I think has not been mentioned yet: An NEF or H&R single shot rifle in 44 Mag. But feed it 44 Special ammo.
The 44 Spl reasonably duplicates 45 ACP ballistics, though it's going to be quite a bit faster out of a small rifle.
The 44 Spl reasonably duplicates 45 ACP ballistics, though it's going to be quite a bit faster out of a small rifle.
monotonous_iterancy
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Well, a single shot does make sure that you'll aim at your target and not spray and pray, but think of the mechanics of loading. Think of the panic if you miss or the round fails to stop, or if there's more than one attacker. I'm not sure any amount of range time could prepare someone for that.
lobo,
If he could walk for miles, he could have been a threat if he'd wanted. My father tried to impress me of the incredible power of the 12 by shooting a half-rotted log with a #6 high-brass from just a few feet. It barely made an impression on the soft wood. That was about 28 years ago, and I've shot a lot of stuff in the meantime. I'd trust 3 .22 LRs from a rifle fired COM to stop a threat before anything smaller than perhaps #2 shot.
The .357 from a rifle will be a much better defensive choice than a .44 Special, whether it's from a rifle barrel or not. You might gain 200 fps with the .44, so you're still looking at only stout .45 ACP ballistics. .357 from a rifle delivers serious power while not being overpenetrative, as I already demonstrated. It'll be harder to fumble the longer .357 rounds than .44 Special, too.
John
If he could walk for miles, he could have been a threat if he'd wanted. My father tried to impress me of the incredible power of the 12 by shooting a half-rotted log with a #6 high-brass from just a few feet. It barely made an impression on the soft wood. That was about 28 years ago, and I've shot a lot of stuff in the meantime. I'd trust 3 .22 LRs from a rifle fired COM to stop a threat before anything smaller than perhaps #2 shot.
The .357 from a rifle will be a much better defensive choice than a .44 Special, whether it's from a rifle barrel or not. You might gain 200 fps with the .44, so you're still looking at only stout .45 ACP ballistics. .357 from a rifle delivers serious power while not being overpenetrative, as I already demonstrated. It'll be harder to fumble the longer .357 rounds than .44 Special, too.
John
While the law states it is illegal to purchase a pistol from an FFL at an age younger that 21, there is nothing stating that you have to be 21 to OWN a handgun. (Pending local laws of course) I talk to many folks that are completely unaware that you don't have to be 21 to OWN a pistol. Just to BUY one from an FFL.
Having said that, you can find used glocks, M&Ps, revolvers of many types, etc for less than $400 dollars.
The amount of frangible handgun ammo availible on the market now is mind boggling. These are effective in close quarters living situations as most will cause massive initial damage, fragment upon hitting a barrier, typically have less recoil, and are usually available.
Taking into account it'll be easier to wield in a smaller space and she could put it in a biometric safe beside the bed, the ammo available for it, the fact that she can indeed own one, I'd say having a pistol in 9mm-.45acp or a revolver equivalent is a no brainer.
Having said that, you can find used glocks, M&Ps, revolvers of many types, etc for less than $400 dollars.
The amount of frangible handgun ammo availible on the market now is mind boggling. These are effective in close quarters living situations as most will cause massive initial damage, fragment upon hitting a barrier, typically have less recoil, and are usually available.
Taking into account it'll be easier to wield in a smaller space and she could put it in a biometric safe beside the bed, the ammo available for it, the fact that she can indeed own one, I'd say having a pistol in 9mm-.45acp or a revolver equivalent is a no brainer.
mdauben
Member
Actually, it’s been pretty well proven that frangible ammo like MagSafe is far inferior to normal JHP for self defense for the same reason as birdshot in shot shells; it lacks adequate penetration. They tend to produce bloody, but not immediately debilitating, surface wounds. Not saying it won't cause an opponent to stop, but it will be much less likely to force them to stop than JHP pistol ammo or buckshot shotgun ammo can.
lobo9er
Member
Jshirley,
we can go around and round. And there can be no winners in this argument because theres plenty of first hand stories of bird shot on both sides. It will be argued probably as long as shotguns can be legally possessed.
I invite anyone with a strong stomach to search bird shot wounds on BING.com
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bird+shot+wounds&FORM=HDRSC2#a
I do agree on a 357 rifle of some sort lots of defensive ammo to choose from. Hornady and GOLD DOT are my first thoughts.
we can go around and round. And there can be no winners in this argument because theres plenty of first hand stories of bird shot on both sides. It will be argued probably as long as shotguns can be legally possessed.
I invite anyone with a strong stomach to search bird shot wounds on BING.com
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=bird+shot+wounds&FORM=HDRSC2#a
I do agree on a 357 rifle of some sort lots of defensive ammo to choose from. Hornady and GOLD DOT are my first thoughts.
Anyone thinking of using pre-fragmented ammo should consider the following and do their own testing...
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Brassfetcher_evaluates_9mm_Glaser_Safety_Slug.pdf
President Reagan damn near died from a single .22 bullet. And a LOT of people have damn SURE died from .22 bullets. If a .22 is all you have, it's a lot better than nothing. Something like a Browning Buckmark may not make an ideal HD gun, but 10 rounds of .22LR is a helluva lot better than a baseball bat.
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