Bushmaster bashing

[SpeedAKL]

I've noticed a trend here on the Internetz - the AR doghouse. Every AR manufacturer seems to have been in it at some point or another. Colt was in there for awhile, DPMS has been in and out, Olympic has permanently shacked up, RRA, Stag, S&W, I can keep going on.

Based on what I've been seeing on THR, Arfcom, M4C, etc, Bushmaster is the current resident. This explains terms like Shrubmaster, Crapmaster, etc.

I'll fess up that I own a Bushmaster and that it has worked great for my intended use so far. I was looking for an entry-level AR that fit my budget and I got the gun at the price I wanted. Unlike some owners, I will readily admit that Bushmaster does not adhere to certain QC processes like Colt or LMT, hence it's position on "the chart".

My question is this: is all the current BM hate out there because the current guns are too expensive to justify their content? Do you think it is because they make exaggerated claims about the capability of their weapons? Is it mostly centered around the ACR? Or do you think much of the bellyaching is a symptom of larger problems with the lower-tier AR makers and BM just makes a large and convenient target?

 

[essayons21]

My only gripe with Bushmaster is the same gripe I have with designer jeans. You are paying a premium for what is printed on the label, not the quality of the product. I'd rather get the most for my money instead of financing a company's marketing department.

 

[taliv]

is all the current BM hate out there because the current guns are too expensive to justify their content?

pretty much

they're perfectly fine for range toys. lots of fun. just don't pay too much

 

[CoRoMo]

This thread needs more poll... and with an 'All of the Above' option.

When did LMT or Noveske ever spend time in the doghouse? I missed that. My own personal opinion is that the BM name costs a little too much for what you get. Add in a number of business decisions that I can't quite find logic in, and I'm out of their target market.

 

[EdLaver]

I agree with you 100%, I think that all the upper echelon of ARs that cost $1800-$3000 are "what's hot" right now. Sure, if you pay that much for an AR it BETTER work effectively.

I have three DPMS rifles, people trash DPMS now, but I remember just a few years ago, they had HUGE praise and following. They were what was hot at the time and just because of some QC complaints that surfaced on the web, people began to bash them. Even people who didnt own one, let alone even shot one. The three that I have always function and I never had a single issue. True I have never jumped in mud and water or continually fired 5000 rounds through any of them. But lets be honest, how many of us will actually need to do that? Sure there are some but not the majority.

I think that Bushmaster falls into that same tier as DPMS right now, they were at one time only a few years ago very hot and sought after rifles, but now with the gas piston systems and higher end ARs getting the cover of magazines and being what is hot at gun shows, the middle class ARs are being shadowed.

-Ed

 

[Boats]

In addition to selling ground chuck at T-bone prices, they sold out to the Bradys in the wake of the DC "sniper" case on a theory of liability that wasn't remotely going to work if shrubmaster had half of the cojones of say, Beretta, who fought the Dix v. Beretta case through five or six rounds in two different venues--twice in front of California juries.

Sellouts who make inferior products are lucky to even have the doghouse.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I think about 90% of it relates to the ACR and it's absolutely insanely high suggested price.

But the other 10% is long standing and relates to a level of hype that was tolerable when Bushmaster was one of only about five AR makers, with the others being Colt, Armalite, Olympic and Hesse/Vulcan/whatever, and they could reasonably claim higher quality than the bottom end. Now they are living on a reputation that IMHO is little deserved, their prices reflect a reputation, and more and more reliable reports are coming out of meaningful problems with them, such as barrels marked 5.56 but actually chambered for .223 Remington - a big no-no given how loudly they advertise the 5.56 chamber and the importance of the difference.

I would cut them more slack if they either redoubled their quality control or lowered prices to match quality competitors.

Also, "Shrubmaster" is just too funny sounding not to use.

 

[inherentical]

I agree with you 100%, I think that all the upper echelon of ARs that cost $1800-$3000 are "what's hot" right now. Sure, if you pay that much for an AR it BETTER work effectively.

I'm not sure about that. My last AR was an LMT and it cost me $960 over 'net. I haven't heard people badmouthing them...yet.

 

[ny32182]

*Today* the Bushmaster cost may be out of line with what you are getting, but that is only because some of the slightly better brands (namely S&W, a great deal right now) have come WAY down in cost recently.

A lot of people are just generally pissed about the ACR cost right now, so take that into account.

You have to take what you see on the internet with a grain of salt. I find that way too many companies, according to the internet, produce products that are either 100% crap, 100% of the time that wouldn't be fit for a backyard airsoft game, or 100% perfected merchandise that was divinely inspired a forged by Zeus himself, too perfect for most mere mortals to possess. Neither extreme is accurate.

FWIW, my first two ARs were Bushmasters, and they never failed me. My Bushy 1/9 HBAR is to this day the most accurate chromed lined AR I have ever personally shot for groups. I've since sold them in favor of more "milspec" rifles after understanding the differences, but each of those cost around $500 more than the Bushmasters. Outside of today's exceptions created by the volatile pricing market, the Bushy is *just fine* for anyone looking to maximize bang for the buck, and who "only" shoots a few thousand rounds a year.

 

[mshootnit]

I liked the Bushmaster I had. I had a bad week awhile back and sold it. I preferred it to my uncle's Colt. Tight, and accurate. They are a bunch of Americans up there turning out a great product. It might not be gnats ass milspec but its darn sure better than what the average joe requires.

 

[Arkady]

The Bushmaster bashing isn't coming strictly from the ACR, it's coming from years of Bushmaster making a mid-grade rifle, and charging too much for it.

 

[kymarkh]

I'm happy with the 2 that I have owned since 2005. My only gripe with Bushmaster is that if you want to use a Troy BUIS you have to get a taller front sight post because of the fsb they use. That said, a quick call to Bushmaster resulted in 2 of them being shipped to me overnight, free of charge.

 

[Nick Nasty]

This board is packed with know-it-alls constantly spouting unverifiable nonsense like "Sig's Swiss rifles are awesome, the SIG 556 is a crappy garbage version of them." It's also a petri dish for negativity about basically every gun question asked, where everyone races to call each other "mall ninja."

Don't lose any sleep over people on the board not liking your brand of rifle. They wouldn't like any other brand either, mall ninja.

 

[Nick5182]

I have always been a pistol guy ever since I got into guns, and with pistols the rule-of-thumb is generally higher price equals better gun. My local dealer sells DPMS, Bushmaster and Armalite AR rifles. I was in his shop looking at different ARs and I was checking out the bushmasters and asked how they were compared to the others, and he told me that bushmaster and DPMS are pretty much exactly the same when it comes to quality and reliability, and you pay a few hundred dollars extra for the Bushmaster name. When I asked him why he sells Bushmaster then, he told me that there are people out there who prefer the "name" even if they are equal rifles, and that meant more business for him. My gun dealer has never steered me wrong and I fully believe him. I say to each his own, and if it works for you, it works for you.

 

[Art Eatman]

About ten years back, I played hockshop for a guy, buying his Bushie Match Target. Went to check the sight-in. Hey, that thing would shoot half-MOA until a fella got bored and quit. It didn't seem to care whose ammo was used, nor was it picky about 55-grain or round-nosed ancient 70-grain.

But I didn't care for a 9.5-pound .223, and $200 profit was hard to pass...

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

I just want to know how many of you that are b@@#$ing about Bushmaster drive a toyota? Woops all companys skimp on QC every now and again. ALL COMPANYS! I own a Bushmaster. I bought it used in great shape. Paid $780 out the door in 2008 before the obama scare. It eats everything I feed it. Zero problems. Good gun that I would trust my life with. Whats the problem. ALL guns if you ask me are overpriced. That one goes out to you guys that "just have to pay over $2000 for a gun or its JUNK."

 

[GPWASR10]

Well, according to the netz, three of my favorite guns..

PT-1911
DPMS 20" HBAR
Bushmaster A1 Commando

are crap. LOL, I guess I'll still just keep using them...

But in all reality, Bushmaster and DPMS build the most AR's on the planet; and in that order, Simply put, there are alot more examples out there of their products then lets say LMT or even S&W (who both build quality weapons no doubt). But because there are more examples out there of Bushy and DPMS, there are more stories about "ZOMG! my friends rifle has a boo-boo!".

Personally, I have to many buddies with Bushmasters and Panthers who are very pleased with their chosen rifles to pass negitive judgement on them. And the guys I know, who have shot at people with this platform for the US Military, who have used my guns at the range, seem to think I have a couple of pretty decent ARs.

Bottom line, buy the gun YOU Have faith in, and shoot it often to either reinforce, or shatter that faith.

My Bushy and my DPMS have not let me down yet. And I feel that as long as I do my part, and keep them clean, they never will. I'm sure I can say the same about your LMT and your Olympic.


And I'm sure some of them will take a dump.

 

[Joe Demko]

"charging too much?"

They charge what the market will bear, same as the other makers who sell to civilians. So do the retailers who stock Bushmaster products.

Last time I checked, nobody was selling guns or parts at an artificially low price just so you could have one.

If you think other brands are a better value, buy them.

 

[SpeedAKL]

I guess my overall point was that people tend to get really wound up when the subject of different AR brands is addressed. I've generally been pleased with my Bushmaster because it fulfills the job I bought it for. Is it accurate? Yes. Is it reliable? Yes, when lubed properly and when using good magazines. Did I get a good price on it? Certainly. Would I use it to defend the house in a pinch? Yes. Would I say their QC processes are all up to spec with Colt, BCM, S&W, etc? No. Would I implicitly trust it at a 5-day Gunsite glass? Probably not, but for a serious defensive carbine I plan selling the BM and purchasing either a higher-end AR or another type of carbine. People get too emotionally attached to their pet AR brands, be it Colt, BM, DPMS, RRA, etc etc etc.

 

[shadowalker]

Bushmaster would be fine at $700 or $800 but at the prices they charge you can have a LMT or Daniel Defense.

DPMS rifles tend to be very accurate and were accuracy a requirement and reliability optional it could be a great choice.

It's just for fighting rifles neither DPMS or Bushmaster are the best choice for the money.

I will point out having used a M4 or M16 in the military doesn't qualify a person to determine a quality rifle. Unless they are an armorer most have no idea about the specifications or reasons for them.

 

[kwelz]

While some people do get to emotionally attached to a brand, I think you will find the dislike of BM is well founded off their history of providing a second rate product at a top rate price. They are better than a DPMS or Oly but not worth the price of an LMT, or BCM.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I purchased my first AR in 1989 - an Olympic. I purchased my second one in 1993 - a Bushmaster.

The thing about the AR market is that new people are always joining and it is constantly evolving. One reason Bushmaster used to be held in higher regard than it is now is because there weren't as many choices. As recently as 1999, you either paid Colt prices or you went with Armalite, Bushmaster, DPMS or Olympic (unless you wanted to go even more budget and buy from the parts houses). Bushmaster (and most of the other companies) didn't build to the same quality that Colt did; but there was a big price difference there too and Bushmaster represented a good value.

However, even then Bushmaster had some irritating quirks - purple lower receivers, overtorqued barrel nuts requiring excessive windage, unstaked castle nuts. Not deal breakers by any means, just things that were annoying.

The problem Bushmaster has is that it did not innovate or evolve at all. It hasn't brought a single new idea to the marketplace until everybody and their brother were already marketing that idea somewhere else. Even as an early participant at AR15.com, where it had a direct line to its consumers and what they wanted, Bushmaster often drew the wrong conclusions from all the chatter. I mean, Bushmaster invented the "Dissipator" concept and then slapped a carbine length gas system on it.

For all practical purposes, Bushmaster is basically selling the same rifle it was in 2001. Except now there are at least twice as many (if not more) AR manufacturers out there now - and they are working to get market share and distinguish themselves by offering features that used to be unavailable: midlength gas systems, 1:7 barrels, superlight profiles, nitrided barrels, bolt carrier groups that meet the TDP, staked castle nuts, etc.

Bushmaster didn't suddenly drop dramatically in quality. They simply stood still and coasted on their reputation as other more innovative manufacturers bypassed them and offered a superior product. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, Bushmaster got the idea that they were the equivalent of Colt and could command similar prices. A stagnating product line and increasing prices does not lead to customer goodwill.

So I think that is where a lot of the dislike towards Bushmaster (and several of the other manufacturers) is coming from. If you weren't around the forums back then, you may not realize how hard some members were pushing these companies for the features they wanted only to be ignored. Eventually companies like CMMG, Bravo Company, Sabre, etc. came along and provided the features that the established companies were not interested in providing. More features at the same price (or better) plus a willingness to listen to what customer wanted... pretty basic business smarts.

However, I think the most recent wave is definitely ACR related. Although, I was impressed by how frank Bushmaster was. They were very open and gave some direct answers in a situation where doing so wasn't going to help them any. Unfortunately, the issues with the ACR release are just one more symptom of a deeper problem with the culture at Bushmaster.

It is difficult to explain the problems with the culture at Bushmaster; but this anecdote sums it up well for me. Some time ago, AR15.com members were deluging Bushmaster with requests to make a 1:7 16" barrel. Everybody wanted to use the heavier 75/77gr ammo that was starting to become popular and at the time, it was 1:9 or nothing unless you wanted to buy Colt. Bushmaster eventually got around to putting up a poll to gauge interest. They got hundreds of answers saying "Yes, I will buy one!" (I was one of them); but nothing happened. The poll ran for over a year and no updates, no comments, nothing. Eventually CMMG came out with 1:7 chrome lined 16" barrels - and with various profiles and gas system options even. I ended up buying one of those CMMG barrels (along with a lot of other people). About three or four months after I bought my CMMG barrel, Bushmaster announced it was making a limited run of 16" 1:7 barrels in HBAR profile only. By this time, there were other manufacturers besides CMMG offering 1:7s at a good price now.

Bushmaster ended up selling something like less than half of the barrels their poll had indicated they would sell. Afterwards the Bushmaster rep basically posted stating that the problem was that AR15.com people were full of it and you couldn't rely on them buying what they claimed to want. Apparently it never crossed their minds that maybe by taking so long and then offering a limited range of options, they just flat-out missed the bus on 1:7 barrels. It STILL hasn't crossed their mind to this day (witness the ACR).

 

[ny32182]

In a regular market, the Bushmasters are in the $900 range, and the equivalent configured LMTs, Colt 6920's, etc are in the $1300 range. Bushmaster is a mid-grade rifle. Not the best, but definitely far from the worst. It is priced accordingly.

S&W's were around 1200 prior to the great hoopla (overpriced for what you get, IMO). Then evidently they over produced during the panic and now they are in Bushmaster price range and sometimes below, making them a good deal.

You just have to evaluate the options at any given time that you want to buy, and do the best you can. Free markets are inherently unstable creatures, and especially so with EBRs since Nov '08. Now is a great time to buy, almost regardless of your favorite brand. It may not always be that way.

 

[jem375]

It is amusing that a lot of the criticism of some brands come from dealers selling the LMT's, Daniel Defense, and etc... Of course they are going to smear other brands in order to sell their products...

 

[wojownik]

I usually steer way clear of discussions like this, but the brand bashing is getting to be a bit much for me. I'm stepping back now, more skeptical about many of these opinons. Bushmaster, IMHO, is a decent mid-tier AR. In my neck of the woods, they are not priced a whole heck of a lot higher than other mid-tier ARs. They work for what I use them for, like plinking and some match target - they are more accurate than I will ever be (I've seen that from loaning the rifles out to buddies who consistently group far better than me on the same rifles).

Yeah, I probably could have gone more "mil-spec". But that was not my objective with the Bushmasters. And I don't really subscribe to SHTF scenarios, I don't believe in zombies, and a I cringe when I see mall ninjas (either at the range or, well, in the mall). So that's not what I need an AR for. They have served me fine as basic platforms to do some relatively minor mods on, to serve my needs for plinking, target match, and three gun.

On the other hand, I do have some issues with the Bushmaster company (due to some quality control issues that I ran into in my first XM15ES2 in 1997), but they were very quick to make things right. I've acquired two more Bushmasters since then, none having any issues whatsoever.

I have a Colt as well. I'll admit, the Colt just "feels" tighter than the Bushmaster. But it better be for the premium paid over the Bushie.

So, this is not a wholesale defense of Bushmaster, not by a long shot. But, they ain't that bad either, not by a long shot.

And, personally, I'd love to get a "Shrubmaster" t-shirt or hat, and wear it with sardonic pride.



As with all things in life, your mileage may vary...