Bushmaster bashing

[kwelz]

I really do want to know the round count on a typical carbine course.

Depends on the class. Average is around 1500-2000 for a 2 day class. At least for MD or Vickers. And of course longer classes

Although now that I think about it Vickers might be a lower round class. Maybe around 1K.

Of course this is not counting secondary weapon ammo.

 

[dbb1776]

Looks like it's 500 to 1500 rounds in a typical carbine course.
Azizza, how many bad BM have you seen.
Rust under battle field conditions, who'd a thunk it. Various broken parts after being bashed around in a Humvee? Hmm, interesting.
My thoughts on the issue of second hand info are not confined to BM, ar's, or any particular subject. I'm only suggesting WE check our facts before put info out there, otherwise we are no more knowledgeable than the guy at the Academy counter.

 

[kwelz]

Azizza, how many bad BM have you seen.

Of the ones I have owned? 2

 

[dbb1776]

What were there issues?
Were they handled well by the company?

 

[mljdeckard]

I was an assistant armorer in the HHC of an armor unit, including the rifles for the mortar, scout, and all support elements. Over 300 weapons total. They all break eventually, even FN and Colt. Some sooner than later.

 

[Zerodefect]

Shrubmaster failures:
-Purple, its called a black rifle for a reason
-not listening to the customer, we were quite loud about our requests for an AR that was combat ready first and a toy later. Shrubby decided they'd rather ignore us and build toys. So we took our business to BCM and LMT. Fair enough right?
-broken bolts and spring failures during training courses. Comps and training courses are hard on rifles, the good float to the top and the bad break down.
- Screwed up the ACR. Shrubby made it fatter/heavier and more expensive. Amazing how it gets more expensive when the desighn gets cheaper.
-the ACR comes with out a chrome lined barrel and chamber. We've been here before. People died because of this mistake last time. Shrubbies lack of attention to detail really shows here.
-1/9 twist barrel......***?
- don't even get me started on barrel metal, M4 ramps, etc.....




Its really quite simple. We know what makes a good AR good. It isn't rocket science. Its all well documented. When an AR manufacturer ignores what is readily know to be good it clearly shows beyond a reasonable doubt that they could care less about making a quality product.

Kinda like M4 feed ramps. Are they needed? No, not really. But they do help, and are needed with larger 6.8spc builds. So why skip them?

They skip them because they don't care about making the best product, only producing a mediocre product. And it'll sell anyway, and they know it.

Right now I can get a Colt for only $200 more than a Garden Weasel.

 

[dbb1776]

Thank you mljdeckard for you service. Did you notice one brand broke more often than the others?
What were the main issues?

 

[GPWASR10]

I think that if you take care of your weapon, your going to do fine. I have dumped 1000 rounds through my DPMS in a day before, and I would not hesitate to do that again. Thing still runs like a top...

But M&P-15 prices look to be a steal right now for sure!

 

[mljdeckard]

Nope. They were all different grades and ages, even by serial # it was tough to tell how much action they had seen because all of the parts had been swapped out so many times. IIRC, they were about half FN and half Colt.

The key I had come loose was a recent model FN A2 that was in a regional training unit.

 

[dbb1776]

That is the kind of real world experience I was looking for. I spent 6 yrs in the army and probably didn't fire 1000 rounds the whole time I was in. For me to say I was in the army and I know Ar's would be a load of horse hockey.
I am looking for people with real experience, not what they think they know.

 

[Welding Rod]

Regarding a couple previous posts about LMT:

Wasn't it LMT who got caught putting out MIM gas keys a few months ago during the peak of the rush?

 

[Welding Rod]

Regarding BM:

I used to think they were OK until a friend bought one brand new and it simply wouldn't feed. Not with factory supplied mags, my mags (NHMTG), different ammo (domestic), etc. Rounds crashed into the receiver below the feed ramps.

I used to think they were OK before the put the 450 on the market and sold it to use a 556 magazine that was totally ill-suited dimensionally to reliably feed a round of its exterior dimensions. I bought two and took a bath selling them both off after realizing the "engineering" problem.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I really do want to know the round count on a typical carbine course.

Here is my Primary Carbine Course from Tac-Pro Shooting Center and my Intermediate Carbine from Tac-Pro Shooting Center reports. Oddly enough, failures of relatively new Bushmaster carbines in both classes (as well as Bushmaster carbines that didn't fail and other brands that did).

Also there is unverified guessing on that chart when it comes to some features.

Once again, you do not know what you are talking about. rob_s doesn't add any feature to the chart without first confirming it with the manufacturer. It actually is a valuable tool for people who understand how to use it; however, like most tools there are apparently some people who cannot grasp how to use it correctly even with instructions.

 

[dbb1776]

BR Good info. I plan on getting some ammo and working out my rifle.
What problems do you anticipate me running into first?

 

[Zerodefect]

Welding Rod:

LMT still uses MIM gas keys to the best of my knowledge. It's not a stressed part. LMT makes one of the best BCG's. Although thier advanced bolt is proprietary with 2 extractor springs. They still offer a standard bolt I think.

LMT/Colt/BCM seem to be the most reliable BCG's IME.

 

[tju1973]

Go over to m4carbine.net read what people have to say. Most of the posters there are serious LE or .mil who's lives depend on their weapon working.

and quite a few posers-- Its not hard to spot the BS over there...I like the forums, but poop is still poop...

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What problems do you anticipate me running into first?

Probably better to start a new thread on that subject rather than drag this one off-topic; but probably 90+% of AR problems can be traced to:

1. Bad ammo
2. Bad magazines
3. Inadequate lube

If the rifle is built well, lubed well, and has good ammo and mags, you won't run into any problems for quite a while. The most common problem I see is probably overly tight .223 chambers or rifles marked 5.56 with .223 chambers.

 

[Zerodefect]

Off topic might not be a bad place to go in this case. Then again this is on topic because some of these could help a bushy out.

1. ammo .223 is weak and may short stroke the better rifles. Use 5.56 loaded to mil spec
2. Use pmags
3. Keep the gun wet.
4. Springs, bring extra springs to carbine clinics especially extractor.
5. too much dirt/grit/carbon buildup
6. bad gas rings or loose gas key, leaky gas tube or gas block
7. wrong buffer
8. worn out or stinky trigger parts
9. bolt snaps in half
10. cam pin snaps
and so much more.....

 

[GPWASR10]

Actually as far as impact goes, MiM has the same stress characteristics as steel from what I have read on it.The only thing MiM really lacks is it's elasticity, as it has none. So parts that need to bend a little (like lets say, and extractor) will snap, but a part like a gas key, or a hammer, should be fine for just as long as a forged part.

 

[MarineOne]

I'll post pics of this when I come home from Iraq later in the year .....

I picked up a Bushmaster A2 HBAR in 2006, and to be honest it was an early Christmas gift from my wife. For $922 out the door, I figured it would be a decent plinker and didn't expect to run it like those that "need" to for professional use.

I took it to the local range to site it in and was shooting way right. I mean like 12 to 15 inches to the right at 25 yards. It had been a few years since I had last shot an AR and I thought maybe it was me, so I hand it off to a friend of mine and he confirmed that this rifle had a problem. I ended up putting 26 clicks of windage on it before I gave up and called Bushmaster's customer service.

Their phone support is knowledgeable and immediately knew what was wrong, and this really should have been my first warning. I was told that the barrel nut was tightened too much and it warped my index pin which caused the alignment problem, and they could send me a new index pin or I could send it in for repair. I didn't have the tools to do the repair myself so I sent it in and I got it back about a month later.

My biggest complaint about this is when they did the repair they messed up the barrel nut. You can see where the nut wrench slipped and it ate up several of the notches/teeth on the nut. I've already bought a new upper because I want a flat top and an ACOG for it, but when I do this I'll be lucky if I can get the barrel nut off without using a pipe wrench. I called and explained what was wrong, and after going from "nice" to "your guys screwed up my rifle and I'm ticked off" did they offer to fix it. No free stuff, no apology or offer to repair until I got mad, and basically I traded one screw up for another.

Looking on the bright side, at least I'm not at 26 clicks anymore.

 

[madcratebuilder]

Bushmaster charges too much! I hear that all the time. It's the warehouses, dealers and end sellers with their fingers in the pie that add to the cost. I paid $700 for my M4gery and $650 for my HBAR Bushmaster. I knew going in that they are not mil-spec, so what. I've out shoot a lot of so called "mil-spec" and "better brands". I'll take a BM any day.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Their phone support is knowledgeable and immediately knew what was wrong, and this really should have been my first warning. I was told that the barrel nut was tightened too much and it warped my index pin which caused the alignment problem, and they could send me a new index pin or I could send it in for repair.

Yeah, I'll bet they did immediately know what was going on since they have continually had this problem since 2001 or so. Check out the Archives at AR15.com and you can see posts asking about this problem popping up every month or so as far back as the Archives there go.

 

[wojownik]

I took it to the local range to site it in and was shooting way right. I mean like 12 to 15 inches to the right at 25 yards. It had been a few years since I had last shot an AR and I thought maybe it was me, so I hand it off to a friend of mine and he confirmed that this rifle had a problem. I ended up putting 26 clicks of windage on it before I gave up and called Bushmaster's customer service.

Their phone support is knowledgeable and immediately knew what was wrong, and this really should have been my first warning. I was told that the barrel nut was tightened too much and it warped my index pin which caused the alignment problem,

This pretty much describes the issue I had with my first Bushmaster in 1997, mentioned previously, It was about 12 inches to the right when trying to zero (I initially thought it was me, since the last time I even picked up a black rifle was 1984). Bushmaster fixed the problem, but I replaced that HBAR bull barrel upper with a J&T upper a couple of years ago. Put several thousand rounds through the fixed BM upper, with no issue. Paid about $850 for that at the time, IIRC.

I picked up a second Bushmaster in 1998, to upgrade it as a quasi match rifle (simple stuff like two stage match trigger, etc. That rifle has run without a hitch for 11 years. Paid $800 in 1998. Bear in mind that my AR HBAR options in 1998 were pretty limited (then living in Maryland) - BM, Armalite (at a premium), or Colt (if you could even find one).

Picked up a BM 16" Patrolman during the Obama frenzy. Paid about $200 too much in retrospect, but that was completely my fault in succumbing to the frenzy. So far the rifle has run without issue with about 500 rounds downrange. In retrospect, though, I wish i picked up a second Colt (for a bit more than what i paid), and kept my older Colt LE model as a safe queen.

So 1 out of 3 was a clunker out of the box.

 

[SpeedAKL]

I agree completely with the OP and Bartholomew Roberts.

I think that there is a tendency in gun culture to distrust or hate anything that costs less than what you paid for it. I think that Bushmaster suffers from the same syndrome as Kimber in that, the more units you sell, the more problems will happen, whether or not it represents a higher RATE of problems.

I think that you could do a test of different rifles from various pricepoints with the mfr labels covered, and the vast majority of shooters wouldn't know the difference. I think the extra features you get on more expensive rifles represent the law of diminishing returns, in that you will pay a LOT more than the return you get in performance.

The Chart is worthless. The only carrier key I have had come loose was.......A MILITARY ISSUE "PROPERLY" STAKED KEY.

Most rifles will work for most shooters most of the time. If you get an AR, and regard it as a tool you will be constantly tweaking and upgrading, I think it makes little if any difference which one you get. The only one I would avoid is Vulcan/Hesse, and I still think you could throw one of THOSE in the covered-label test and most people wouldn't know it.

I'll disagree about the Chart being worthless. What the Chart is describing are quality control procedures that reduce the risk of a failure like a gas key coming loose. A properly-assembled and tested BCG can still break. However, that bolt has a lower CHANCE of breaking versus a non-staked, non-MPI-tested unit.

 

[GPWASR10]

I'll disagree about the Chart being worthless. What the Chart is describing are quality control procedures that reduce the risk of a failure like a gas key coming loose. A properly-assembled and tested BCG can still break. However, that bolt has a lower CHANCE of breaking versus a non-staked, non-MPI-tested unit.

THIS^

Also those QC processes costs money as it takes extra time to inspect the components, which results in a higher cost, so you're getting something for your money. You chances of getting a lemon are probably less due to these procedures. But here are a couple of points to consider....

1) DPMS is the number 2 AR maker in the world and they made about 100k rifles last year; BM made even more. Granted, last year was crazy; nevertheless we know that there are many more examples in the market of these two manufacturers [Panther & BM] then any other. So the question is, is there more failures per capita with BM then let’s say LMT? If so, where can I find this info? Or is it more likely that we hear about problems with BM or DPMS because there are simply so many more examples of them.

2) A lot of the “Mil Spec” things they do to M4's and M-16's are done due to the stress caused by the fact that those Military weapons are full auto guns. And full auto takes its own special toll on weapons. That does not mean these things are useless, but what it does mean is that they are probably not as critical.