Bushmaster bashing

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'm not disputing anything on the chart and I don't know the guy who made it.

I wasn't thinking of you specifically Joe. It just bugs me that we used to have guys like rob_s, Pat Rogers, and other guys with a lot of knowledge who would stop by and contribute here and that I don't see those guys around here anymore.

All I am saying is that the checklist that forms the chart would be orders of magnitude more useful if each "x" had some quantified measure of how much "better" it is to have that feature than to not have it.

Yes I agree; but I don't think anyone has that particular piece of data due to the difficulty in gathering that much information over a useful sample size.

 

[ny32182]

I cruised over to "rob_s"'s website one time, and it basically lists his "credentials" as being a guy who likes to shoot and try out different gear. Nothing wrong with that... but I can say the same thing about myself and many others. I don't see how this guy's opinion got elevated to the point it has. Same with "nutnfancy". I'll be happy to look at their opinions, but they are amateurs just like myself and 99.9% of gun forum surfers. They went to the trouble to put together websites/videos of their exploits, and that is nice, but it doesn't make them experts or professionals.

With trainers (Pat Rogers, etc), while I think they are in a great position (maybe the best position of anyone not running a dedicated study) to observe what rifles may break and which ones don't, I do have two concerns with taking their observations as gospel:

1) They all admit that they don't have the time to analyze *why* observed failures occur. And that is fine, because they are not running a study on weapon reliability, they are there getting paid very good money to teach people how to shoot. So whatever statistical conclusions you think you can draw from what they say are based on information that is somewhat incomplete without cause analysis as well. It may be the most thorough anecdotal evidence available, but it is not the same as a purpose built reliability study.

2) Their names often appear next to quotes about how great carbine X is in carbine X's marketing material. Once money and sponsorships enter the mix, objectivity is in a perilous position.

Those are my opinions, worth what you paid for them...

 

[wojownik]

At 6'3" and a lean 230 I not only prefer the 20" Hbar, but have little trouble throwing it around ;-). I actually dig the eight and my follow up shots with my set up are not only accurate, but VERY fast due tot he lack of recoil. I am really considering doing a pencil profile BBL on my A1 though, that and an A1 butt stock and triangle guards.

Complete agreement with you on all points. I like the HBAR and don't have much trouble tossing it around, though I am 5'11' and a, uh, slightly less lean 215 lbs. Still, I am thinking of getting a Bravo Company gov't profile upper for one of my BM lowers, or maybe going totally retro with a Nodak lower and parts kit.

If you use garbage front sight towers, or don't torque everything to spec and test it, you end up with gross violations of 3.4.6 -- Targeting and Accuracy.

I see a tautology in this - if a given manufacturer is (explicitly) not following mil-spec, then 3.4.6 doesn't/shouldn't apply (though they should be using their rigorous QC measures in any event). If a manufacturer is directly inferring that they are mil-spec, then MILSTD is a very fair basis for comparison. Which admittedly leaves open the question of whether Bushmaster is making any such inferences.

 

[Freedom Fighter 78]

I don't own one, I haven't fired one, I haven't handled one, I probably never will own one ($700.00 +? :banghead: ), heck, I don't think I've even seen one. Nah, I don't like them. ( maybe if I can come up with the $ somehow, make it as reliable as an AK, hhmmm)

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I cruised over to "rob_s"'s website one time, and it basically lists his "credentials" as being a guy who likes to shoot and try out different gear. Nothing wrong with that... but I can say the same thing about myself and many others. I don't see how this guy's opinion got elevated to the point it has.

I agree with you; I don't give rob's opinion any more weight than any other shooter who actually gets out there and shoots, takes classes and uses their rifle like I use mine.

However, I do appreciate it when someone takes the time and effort to try and share good, solid facts with me. Just creating and maintaing the Chart takes a fair amount of effort (finding out the details of the TDP, contacting all the manufacturers, verifying which features for which models and then updating that information regularly). If I did all that work and it was received with comments like (all recent comments from just the past week by the way):

The Chart is worthless.

As far as the famous "CHART" take it for what the paper its written on is worth, not much.

When are any of you mall Nazis ever gonna need a mill spec M4 anyway? What qualifies you? Are you a super turbo nerd range monkey rolling around in the tall grass pretending your G.I Joe?... Oh geezh the useless old chart arrives

DUDE, this chart is completely whacked out!!!

In the spirit of thinking that mill spec is bull and that chart is donkey.

I would probably just stop bothering to put out the effort, if I was rob_s. On a personal level it annoys me that I get to read 20 more comments by people giving me their strongly held opinions; but no longer have any AARs from Pat Rogers to read. And it makes me think "Eh, what's the point?" whenever I think about doing some of the experiments I used to do (comparing different optics for speed).

Frankly, I've about had my fill of everybody's opinion on any subject related to firearms. The only guys I am really interested in reading now are the ones that give me the raw facts straight from the tap and let me form my own opinions.

 

[SHvar]

"Once again, you do not know what you are talking about."
Once again you demonstrate your knowledge on the subject, and just because you say so, it doesnt make you any more knowledgeable than me on this, but I actually verified my info.

Once again, read the chart you so religiously praise written by a guy whos only qualification is making a few phone calls to salesmen at some rifle manufacturers, then he puts the chart together. Also if you read the chart is says right there, unverified, possible, so how does that information count? Im sure some manufacturers salesmen and customer service people will tell you their rifles have hand made leather sadlles to make you happy.

Rob_s, his only qualification to knowledge on the subject of these weapons is that hes a guy who likes to shoot.

"Right. Tell that to the Magpul guys, Iraq_gunz, Rob_s, Iraq Ninja, etc. A good number of the guys post on there from Afghanistan and Iraq. Hell one guy on there is an armorer for a PMC. He has seen more AR/M16s through there of every make possible than most of us can dream about. Ask him what he thinks of Bushmaster. He can show you photos of the problems he has had with them."

So how is anyone who has access to only one brand of rifle (colt M-16 M-4) going to give you an accurate opinion, or demonstrate the reliability of other AR type rifles? Hmmmmm????

You know, if you actually take apart several colt models (not just an M-4) you will find that aside from that one model in that chart, they all contain alot less features than what people give them credit for.
Ive looked at multiple colt models all containing the same spring insert, the same staking, and many with less features than other manufacturers bashed here by brand snobs.

Like I said, the bashing here and on other sites has to do with "brand snobs", gun dealers trying to sell rifles that they pay the same low price for but sell at higher profit margins, and the fact that most are disappointed at the MSRP of the ACR.

 

[Art Eatman]

Enough. Probably more than enough...

 

[taliv]

I would probably just stop bothering to put out the effort, if I was rob_s. On a personal level it annoys me that I get to read 20 more comments by people giving me their strongly held opinions; but no longer have any AARs from Pat Rogers to read. And it makes me think "Eh, what's the point?" whenever I think about doing some of the experiments I used to do (comparing different optics for speed).

Frankly, I've about had my fill of everybody's opinion on any subject related to firearms. The only guys I am really interested in reading now are the ones that give me the raw facts straight from the tap and let me form my own opinions.

agree completely. I'll add that i think this particular forum serves a useful purpose, which is educating a lot of new shooters and future shooters, that would not be welcome on some of the higher-speed forums. So we tend to be more gentle with people's opinions, even when they're grossly ignorant, in hopes that they will learn as they grow up, w/o becoming hostile to the gun culture. Anyway, that's the way I see it.