Bye-Bye, San Gabriel Valley Gun Club....

[BamBam-31]

http://www.sgvtribune.com/search/ci_4371862

This is the club we SoCal THR members have been frequenting for our monthly shoots (www.sangabrielvalleygunclub.com). Beetle Bailey and I have been weekly regulars there for a few years now--we're on a first name basis with the RO's, other range workers (one was on one of my hockey teams for a while), and other regular members of the club.

You know when Norm walks into "Cheers" and everyone says, "NORM!"? Well, that's what SGVGC was for us.

Now, thanks to the constant complaints from the residents in Mountain Cove (a community built in the hills above the range, built YEARS AFTER the range had been open, a community where you had to sign a waiver acknowledging the nearby range before purchasing the property :banghead: ), the City of Azusa will be shutting the range down. They issued a cease and desist letter to the club this past Monday.

It's been rumored that the company that owns the land the range is on, Vulcan Industries (a rock mining company), was pressured by the city to not renew the range's lease (which expires this November). In exchange for stabbing their longtime tenant in the back, Vulcan either got their license renewed or further mining rights from the city (or both).

Dunno what more we could have done. We stayed loyal as customers, I donated $$$ to the "Save the Range" fund, other range members offered free legal services to help fight the city, but to no avail.

This is a sad day....

 

[ArmedBear]

You know when Norm walks into "Cheers" and everyone says, "NORM!"? Well, that's what SGVGC was for us.

Most other people felt like a black traveler walking into a bar in an unfamiliar town, and realizing that he'd stumbled into the local Klan meeting.

Still, it's sad to see this happen to any gun club, especially one that I went to when I was a kid.

 

[Black Majik]

Damn, it happened...

 

[.38 Special]

Well, that's a shame. I shot there a lot back when I was pretending to be a rifleman.

Having said that, I didn't always feel I got the warmest welcome there. The membership was "elite" and only available through sponsorship by another member. The members could be pretty stand-offish. And this is coming from a fancier of old British bolt actions, not some yahoo who likes to shoot up the countryside with an AK.

The Angeles ranges are still up and still a great place to shoot, with steel out to 800 yards. Hopefully the goofballs living on the road to the range won't get similar ideas.

 

[rangermonroe]

Most other people felt like a black traveler walking into a bar in an unfamiliar town, and realizing that he'd stumbled into the local Klan meeting.

Please explain.

This was a racist gun club?

 

[.38 Special]

No. Just that it could be a bit elitist. Imagine if you walked into Cheers and everyone stopped their conversations, swiveled around in their chairs, and stared at you while fingering their gun butts.

That's a dramatization, but you get the point...

 

[10-Ring]

Truly sad Some shooting buddies & I have been going weekly for the last month knowing that their days are numbered...just didn't realize that they were so numbered. I hear that the Army Corp of Eng. went in on Tuesday and bull dozed the shotgun area & more than 30 lanes are now gone
SAD SAD DAY

 

[ArmedBear]

No.

It was a gun club that treated unfamiliar faces or anyone with a rifle other than a bolt action like pariahs (they did have two or three cardboard "shell deflectors" you were supposed to use with an autoloader, for maybe 100 shooting benches, and if they didn't have one for you, which they generally didn't, you couldn't shoot your rifle), where surly RSO's got orgasms from screaming like drill sergeants if it appeared that someone's toe might possibly touch the line during a cease fire, where general grouchiness was par for the course. If I want to be treated like that by the local trailer park residents, I'll go to prison, thank you. At least the food's free.

(My current gun club is heavy on safety and discipline, but without the added dose of surliness. )

Back when I was a kid, the place was a lot more laid-back. Maybe it was too laid back, since alcohol and firearms sometimes mixed, but I never heard of any incidents.

But lately, let's just say that they didn't do a whole lot to foster good will among non-members who were shooters. They were left standing on their own, pretty much, when they needed support. That should be a lesson to all of us with clubs in populated areas.

 

[Johnnybgood]

Damn!

I had many fond memorys and 1 not so fond memory of that gun club. As a kid who grew up in Duarte I used to ride my motorcycle up to the gun club and the guys and gals there would let me shoot. The not so nice memory was when the line was clear some guy picked up a gun that did not belong to him and was looking at it. While it was pointed my direction there was a negligent discharge that I swear went right between my legs.
The guy put the gun down and got out of there as fast as he could. Even then shooters weren't real pleasent with people who handled firearms not their own.
Dang.

 

[.38 Special]

Hell, I always brought bolt guns and still felt unwelcome. Especially if you headed to the far end to shoot 200 yards. The members would be rude to anyone who got too close to the "members only" area. I remember a guy with an old Garand sneering at me and my Sedgley Springfield, fer chrissakes.

In their defense, however, when you're that close to L.A. you get all sorts of whack jobs. The guy with the Raven .25, standing in the dirt ahead of the benches and shooting at the 100 yard frames comes to mind. And the guy who loaded up and started shooting during the line break, despite me and about fifty other guys headed downrange with staplers...

 

[Beetle Bailey]

I wasn't a member; when I wanted to be one, there was a five year waiting list, a fee of about $500 give or take, and you needed to be recommended by at least two members. At the time, I didn't know any members so I figured it was hopeless.

However, BamBam-31 and I both preferred it to the other local outdoor shooting ranges so we made it our regular shooting spot. Once the staff got to know us and realize we weren't unsafe, they were very friendly with us. I didn't start putting money in the tip jar until after they started doing little favors for us. Also, it didn't hurt that we made an effort to get to know the staff personally and to help them out when we could.

One day, one of the friendly members noticed that both BamBam-31 and I were shooting Finn M39 Mosin Nagants (and, not to brag or anything, but ours are pretty nice examples) so he came by to chat a bit. Since he loves guns and we love guns, we became friends and just a few weeks ago he invited us to go hunting with him since we just got our hunter safety certificates. Well, since we know him, we started to meet other members and now we know quite a few of them.

Some of the members, especially at the 200 yard "doghouse," are indeed snobby. I won't comment on the shotgunners since I have no personal experience with them. I don't care about the snobs. I've heard a few rude comments they've made on the side, but if they won't speak to me face-to-face I don't care what they say. The members that have been willing to talk to us have been very generous with both their guns and their knowledge. Very generous, indeed.

I've shot many kinds of guns there: EBR's with standard capacity magazines, sniper rifles, milsurps, tactical shotguns, big-bore revolvers, elephant-killing hunting rifles, mouse guns, black powder, auto-chuckers, benchrest rifles, target-type "free-pistols", etc. About the only thing I haven't shot there is a .50 BMG. Nobody has ever given me grief about the guns I shot.

There was one member who berated and made up lies about BamBam-31 about his FN-49 (semi-auto battle rifle) because that guy didn't like flying brass, but that member is known to be a total jerk anyways, so. . .

I see your points, though. If BamBam-31 and I had decided to just blast away with our SKS's that day instead of shooting our more socially acceptable (and eye-catching) Mosin Nagants, would things have been different?

Anyways I for one will miss the range and all the other regulars, since it is doubtful we will all ever be at the same place at the same time again.

 

[Sheldon]

I have been shooting there for close to 18 years, so they sorta know me there. I pretty much went only during the weekdays and didn't have any issues with anyone. It was my favorite place to shoot....as well as the closest. I have shot in the 200 yard lanes (AR-15 and Springfield M1A and never had a problem with the club house guys....maybe that was a weekend thing?? I was there today and it was sad to see the 25 lanes open and everything else taped off limits. I went to Burro Canyon and became a member there. I actually got on the SGVGC membership waiting list years ago and a couple years ago my chance came up. but was a $500 initiation fee as well as a $200 a year membership fee........I had to pass at those prices. I'm even more glad I didn't spring for the membership now with them being shut down. Burro Canyon is the next closest so I will end up there.....in fact I bought a membership there today. It is a little more crude as far as bathrooms and food goes, but I hope that'll improve as business picks up there from the closing of the SGVGC.

 

[No_Brakes23]

My dad was a member for a while. It was a bit benchrest-biased in the doghouse, but we always went on the days when the Bresters had their matches. (Second Sunday of the month, I think.) I never felt too unwelcome, but I would get some long stares when I would shoot a full mag of 30 through the Saiga from the low-kneeling. I had a fondness for target 00 (Or was it 1?) since it was all the way on the right, and the other doghouse folks seemed to orient toward the left, closer to the rest of the line.

I loved going up there, even though it was 2-hour drive up and a 3 hour drive back, (traffic.)

I have a few memories of SGVGC that will last. Watching a Tikka explode, with no one getting hurt. Listening to the old-timer's stories of Germany, SE Asia and Africa (and wondering how much they were BSing me.) Watching Randy, (one of the friendly bresters) load his rounds and take a shot every hour or so. Watching my dad put a nice small group in the black at 100 yards with his Model 28. Chuckling at the number of times the RSO would have to holler at folks to stay behind the line during cease fire. The joy of finding every last piece of brass I fired one day. The distinct, loud klang of the BP guys hitting the buffalo at 200. The hot uncomfortable trek downrange to swap targets in the summer. The nice cold calm in the winter mornings when not too many people had shown up yet.

It was an oasis in the midst of an anti-gun city.

RIP, SGVGC.

P.S., I hope the Azusa developers discover they can't use the land because the ground is too full of lead.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

Listening to the old-timer's stories of Germany, SE Asia and Africa (and wondering how much they were BSing me.)

Are you talking about that German guy who served in the Afrika Korps with Rommel and later joined the French Foreign Legion? I don't know if the stories are true or not, but if they aren't, then he has a lot of people fooled.

 

[No_Brakes23]

Are you talking about that German guy who served in the Afrika Korps with Rommel and later joined the French Foreign Legion?

Yes, that's the one. Others told stories, too, but he was definitely the most memorable. I got the feeling he was telling the truth, (His stories were never very outlandish, usually just a comment about service conditions or history on a weapon,) but after eight years in the Corps, I have met a whole lot of BS artists, so I always wonder.

 

[BamBam-31]

There was one member who berated and made up lies about BamBam-31 about his FN-49 (semi-auto battle rifle) because that guy didn't like flying brass, but that member is known to be a total jerk anyways, so. . .

Ah, yes, "Sarge," they called him. He was pretty upset with me because brass from my Egyptian FN49 would eject forward at about 2:00, riccochet off a beam, and land on his table. I was a "dangerous shooter," and my C&R FN49 was an "assault weapon" according to [his version of] California law.

ArmedBear and .38 special, no one should ever be treated the way you were treated. Ever. And I'm sorry you had to put up with that. As Beetle said, the range snobs are there, no doubt. We hardly ever noticed them, however. Going to SGVGC was always a real positive experience for us, and it seemed to me that that positive energy, the joy we all derived from shooting and collecting firearms, was an infectuous thing. It bonded us the same way sites like THR and TFL bond us. Guys like "Sarge" and the doghouse snobs couldn't put a dent in that if they tried.

So much of what I know, so much of what I've purchased over the years, so much of what I intend to do and learn in the future has been shaped and influenced by the older guys at the range that took a liking to us simply because we kept showing up, simply because we had similar interests and passions. There's the bullseye bunch that kept pestering me to practice, train, and buy nothing but the best (meaning $2000 Clarks, Hammerli's, Walther's, etc.). Then there's the varminters' club, who keep inviting us to their meetings and private shoots, who offered to teach us how to reload and hunt. We'll do our best to keep in touch with these guys, for sure.

I'll definitely miss the range employees. I'll miss the ladies in the office, who never missed an opportunity to ask how my hand was doing (I accidently shot myself at SGVGC ). I'll miss the guys in the shed, who never missed an opportunity to needle me about my accident. "Hey, look, Lefty's here," or "Hey, it's The Gloved One." I'll miss Jim, the old guy that shouted at everyone when they didn't stay behind the yellow safety line during breaks. He's a really nice guy--too bad most people couldn't see beyond him doing his job. I'll even miss the Mom-and-Pop burger stand.

Man, Angeles better be good.....

 

[tegemu]

I'm sorry to hear that. I did a lot of shooting there back in the 5 years that I lived in the San Gabriel Valley, in Arcadia, '82 - '87. Many great memories.

 

[silverlance]

um

1997.
1st time to a range with my own gun. Olympic AR15.

Sure, everyone was snobby. But they were grizzled old vets (and some pretending to be vets) and I was a kid with an E-B-R.

I didn't mind the RO, who was quite an arse and had a penchant for yelling at people five feet away for stepping on the yellow line.

"GET OFF THE YELLOW LINE!"

Nor did I mind the old lady who was downright frigid.

What I did mind was that membership was $500, took SEVEN YEARS (do I look like Jacob to you guys?) of frequent range visits, and on top of that $200+ a year in fees.

Burro Canyon got it right. I came back to BC after 12 years away (I shot there as a kid in the early 90s), and they not only remembered me but offered me a membership based on the previous year's rates:

• $150 a year
• unlimited range time, 1 guest free per visit.
• free use of private ranges when there are no shooting parties waiting or scheduled (shooting parties bring in a lot of money, so I understand)
• 10% off all range purchases
• a bundle of papers from Unintended Consequences, info on gun rights in CA, stories...
• and most importantly, they were and always have been friendly.

I'll miss the days back when it was common for my friend, his dad, and I to go up and find several guys unloading MP5s, FALs, and other $$ guns rock&roll (one time there was a cannon), but SGVGC basically sniffed and snorted its way into oblivion.

 

[silverlance]

um

1997.
1st time to a range with my own gun. Olympic AR15.

Sure, everyone was snobby. But they were grizzled old vets (and some pretending to be vets) and I was a kid with an E-B-R.

I didn't mind the RO, who was quite an arse and had a penchant for yelling at people five feet away for stepping on the yellow line.

"GET OFF THE YELLOW LINE!"

Nor did I mind the old lady who was downright frigid.

What I did mind was that membership was $500, took SEVEN YEARS (do I look like Jacob to you guys?) of frequent range visits, and on top of that $200+ a year in fees.

Burro Canyon got it right. I came back to BC after 12 years away (I shot there as a kid in the early 90s), and they not only remembered me but offered me a membership based on the previous year's rates:

• $150 a year
• unlimited range time, 1 guest free per visit.
• free use of private ranges when there are no shooting parties waiting or scheduled (shooting parties bring in a lot of money, so I understand)
• 10% off all range purchases
• a bundle of papers from Unintended Consequences, info on gun rights in CA, stories...
• and most importantly, they were and always have been friendly.

I'll miss the days back when it was common for my friend, his dad, and I to go up and find several guys unloading MP5s, FALs, and other $$ guns rock&roll (one time there was a cannon), but SGVGC basically sniffed and snorted its way into oblivion.

 

[Beetle Bailey]

"GET OFF THE YELLOW LINE!"

Those people need to be yelled at. If someone can't stay behind the designated yellow line during a line break when they are specifically told to over the PA system, they either aren't paying attention to what they are doing or are totally clueless about range safety.

Ever see, during a linebreak, a person cross the yellow line to handle his/her firearms while people are still down range? Ever be downrange setting up your target during a linebreak and have a guy pull a rifle out of his trunk, cross the yellow line and (muzzle pointed downrange right at me) sweep ten benches to lay his rifle down on his bench?

The reason people are required to stay behind the yellow line is as not to obstruct the view of the rangemaster. He needs to be able to see these irresponsible people and if someone is standing right next to his bench (even if at that moment he is not handling a firearm) during a linebreak, it's a distraction to the rangemaster. At any moment, that person could decide "Hey, I want to pick up my gun for absolutely no good reason!" The rangemaster would have to watch that person (were he allowed to stand there) constantly instead of watching the entire line.

As far as Burro Canyon goes, the staff is actually really friendly and I've never had a problem with them. The facilities aren't great, but I could deal with that as well. What I don't like are all the craptastic shooters. I personally think it's unsafe if the guy next to you rolls out a bowling pin seven yards from the firing line and starts rapid firing at it with his semi-automatic rifle. Thirty rounds at spitting distance and he only gets one or two hits? With a longgun? Maybe he never heard of a ricochet. . .

It's fine if a guy hasn't learned to shoot, since we all started somewhere. However, these guys are proud of themselves for simply being able to pull the trigger thirty times (hey, at least they can count all the way up to thirty!). Range officers don't care.

I suppose it's different if you are a member, since you can use the private ranges and don't have to put up with the dangerous guys. Normally if someone shoots my targets, I have a few kind words with them. At Burro I just shrug my shoulders because I know that if they meant to hit my targets, those targets would be perfectly safe out there. However, bye-bye to the target deposit I paid. . .

Well, I've been invited to use one of the private ranges there next month so I'll see how that goes. . .

 

[ArmedBear]

The reason people are required to stay behind the yellow line is as not to obstruct the view of the rangemaster.

That is true, of course. However, in real life, creative solutions will often take you a lot farther than a decade's worth of excuses from the small-minded, for things that obviously aren't working right and don't get better all by themselves.

Like, let's build a range that has enough room behind and in front of the line, so that people can mill about and chat with friends during target breaks without accidentally crossing the line. SGVGC could have avoided 90% of the problem if one of the few members deemed worthy to join the exclusive club had had a brain bigger than an RSO's mouth.

My club is set up so that the line is drawn so that there's comfortable space on either side, and we're very safety-conscious. Sometimes, an RSO has to tell someone to step back, of course, but not nearly as often. We have a lot of members; it is not exclusive, because we want support. We have thrown a person or two out, but not often.

SGVGC hit on a formula to almost guarantee their demise.

1. Keep the club small, and prevent people from joining. This ensures that most of the shooters in the area will not see the club as "theirs", but rather as "someone else's." (Note also that SGVGC did not exactly look like a country club, and didn't own their own land, two prerequisites of an exclusive club, generally.)

2. Build a repuatation for surly customer relations among non-member shooters in the community.

3. Scowl at, rather than welcome, new shooters.

4. Enjoy yelling at non-members frequently and gratuitously, rather than working on how to create a safe environment, and of course enforcing safety rules when necessary.

My club has done exactly the opposite in all 4 areas. And we have a setup not unlike the SGVGC. We're on the back lot of a rock quarry, in an expensive view neighborhood with a couple nice golf courses (more expensive than Azusa). Among other things, we have a 100 yard climate-controlled INDOOR rifle range, not just a dirt patch like SGVGC, but we're not a high-dollar club. Lots of happy customers lead to a good range budget, and a quieter range makes the mansion-owners nearby happy. We make MORE money when it rains, not less.

Though I'd been shooting rifles and pistols as a teenager, I started shotgunning at my current club, a couple of years ago; I felt welcome right away, even with my Express among Ljutics and Perazzis. Skilled shooters will teach you, if you want to learn, with a smile.

We have a scholastic trap program for the local high school: we've even won over anti-gunners in the community. We build good community will.

We have a written safety test one must pass before shooting, and our red line is positioned so it makes sense; these factors eliminate 90% of the yelling that places like SGVGC can't figure out how not to do (or seem to enjoy too much to stop). We have barriers between benches; this eliminates the problem of semiauto shell ejection, and also keeps things a lot safer. It would be very hard to sweep the line the way we're set up, and neighboring shooters are protected from injury, should someone's milsurp blow up.

Customer service with a smile is mandatory. While safety is enforced, surliness is not tolerated. Some people grumble about our manager because he's too business-oriented, but I have to say that the professionalism, fiscal responsibility, and emphasis on friendly customer service is really good for the club.

A few of the old grouches want to have an SGVGC-like atmosphere, and a sloppy budget; the smart founding members, on the other hand, understand that bad community will, sloppy finances, and a body of ticked-off ex-customers, would mean the end of our club, and the end of one of the few places to shoot rifles and shotguns in town.

We also understand that new shooters are our friends, not our enemies, even if they don't already know everything. This is ESPECIALLY true politically, here in California. A fellow shooter is an important ally, plain and simple.

I understand the value of SGVGC up there in the overdeveloped LA basin. It's a bummer. But I'd venture to say that the place would have gotten more community political support, from a different class of people, if it were run differently.

 

[BamBam-31]

I understand the value of SGVGC up there in the overdeveloped LA basin. It's a bummer.

In the big picture, this is what is essentially the worst part of it all. Rather than getting caught up in the Range A vs. Range B discussion (which, to me, is really an unimportant tangent anyways), I think what's hard to swallow is what SGVGC's closing means for the anti's: a victory, plain and simple. During the debate over the range's closure, many anti's described the range and its customers in not-so-kind terms. At best, were were a vestigial part of society that needed to be excised; at worst, were were made morally equivalent to brothels, drug dens, and the like. Basically, the citizens of Azusa were saying, "Go away. We don't need your types around here."

That the range was closed down by sentiments like those, therein lies the real tragedy. It was not closed because of its customer service (or lack thereof). Despite the complaints posted here from occasional shooters from years past, the range had more than enough business to continue for years to come. Make no mistake: SGVGC's closure was a victory for the anti's.

Question: If that were the prevailing view in and around your range (not too much of a stretch, here in Kali), would it survive?

 

[.38 Special]

Amen, BamBam, and may I say you've been very gracious in dealing with the harsh criticisms of "your" club.

San Gabriel Valley was a pretty good club, overall. Lord knows I've been to much, much worse. And the loss of any range in Southern California -- most especially an outdoor rifle range -- is a real blow.

 

[ArmedBear]

Rather than getting caught up in the Range A vs. Range B discussion (which, to me, is really an unimportant tangent anyways), I think what's hard to swallow is what SGVGC's closing means for the anti's: a victory, plain and simple.

You missed my point completely.

SGVGC is a textbook example of how to lose a range. I was giving a real-world example of how not to, from personal experience. I just joined my club here in the past few years; I'm not taking credit for what they did before I got there, by any stretch.

I think what's hardest to swallow is that SGVGC did so much to ensure its demise, plain and simple.

The anti's, NIMBY's, and people who move somewhere then use politics to force out previous occupants are a given, and they're a given everywhere in California, among other places. Blame them if you want, but you're wasting your time and playing the game to lose.

I am just as ticked at the anti-gun victory.

Now, since the SGVGC is gone, I hope that the rest of us can learn from it. Maybe someone else can win the battle.

If .38 Special has been to much, much worse ranges, it's a sad but safe bet that they're the next to go. Stubbornly hanging on to egos and attitudes will win nothing.

from years past

Nope, more like the past year. Years past (25 years ago) it wasn't like that.

Another lesson from the real world: you never get another chance to make a first impression.

I had nothing to do with them shutting down your club. I even donated to the "save the club" fund, which was about all I could do from here. I'm no happier about it than anyone.

Perhaps, though, you can tell me what SGVGC did, in the past 5 years, to promote general community good will? To build a large membership with political clout? To win over hilltop homeowners? To run the range smarter rather than simply with an angrier vibe?

If you can honestly say that the members of SGVGC did these things, I apologize.

Either way, I want all of us who can, to learn from this.

 

[.38 Special]

If .38 Special has been to much, much worse ranges, it's a sad but safe bet that they're the next to go. Stubbornly hanging on to egos and attitudes will win nothing.

Actually, the ones that I am aware of went a long time ago. And, as BamBam says, the bad attitudes and worse manners didn't have much to do with it.

The Huntington Beach police pistol range comes rushing to mind. There were some folks working there who were among the biggest jerks I have ever had the misfortune of knowing.

The place closed, though, not because of the jerks but because of suburban encroachment, NIMBY attitudes, and a city council that didn't want strip clubs, junkie hangouts, and shooting ranges (all having about the same moral standing, in the eyes of Southern California) in their city.

So I think I see BamBam's point. Nobody should have to put up with rude employees of a service-oriented business. But rude employees are generally not the reason ranges are closing around here.