Can a homeowners assocation ban guns?

[BryanP]

I'm sitting in my hotel room in Knoxville TN (Bryan waves to Tamara and Marko, neither of whom he has ever met ...) this morning getting ready to go to work. So I'm dialed in checking my work email and I've got CNN up on screen in the background. Unfortunately I missed the very beginning of a story that turned out to be quite interesting so I can't tell you WHERE it happened. *sigh*

Anyway, the story was about a burglar who was arrested after he drove to the hospital in a stolen car. He had been shot by the homeowner. Get this, the homeowner is being fined because there is a covenant in the homeowners association for his neighborhood prohibiting residents to own firearms!

On a positive note, despite the perception that everybody on CNN is a flaming liberal, when the story switched back to the anchors the lady reading the news and the weather guy (Chad somebody, hey it was 5:30, I'm not really awake) both commented on how they didn't think the fine would hold up in court. The weather guy asked "Can a homeowners association override the Constitution?"

Hope springs eternal.

edit/addendum - the weather guy who made the comment is named Chad Myers (Meyers?). I may have to see if I can find him on their web site and send a fan letter.

 

[TechBrute]

I like the last comment.

Anyway, a homeowners association can pretty much do what it wants in theory, since it sets rules prior to you living there and then you agree to abide by them. I'm sure that the owner will be able to have the rule changed through legal recourse or other acommodations will be made.

 

[clubsoda22]

uh huh...and you being a home owner have every right to do what you want in your home. To hell with what your neighbors think. This is the equivalent of telling a black guy he can't live in your neighborhood. Gun owners: the new N******.

I wouldn't go to court, i'd just refuse to pay the fine. They can take me to court if they want, but i'd definately sue them for losses if i won. What case would they make? That Mr. X's gun ownership somehow effects their property value?

 

[TechBrute]

A homeowners association (at least in most parts of the country) has the right to foreclose on your home for non-payment of fines or membership fees. I was a boardmember of my last HOA in CA, and we had begun foreclosure proceedings on someone who hadn't paid their fees for several years.

and you being a home owner have every right to do what you want in your home.

That's pretty much untrue anywhere. There are laws, zoning regulations, and in some cases HOA rules that affect what you do IN YOUR OWN HOME. Welcome to America.

To hell with what your neighbors think.

That's a statement that I can get on board with, although a lot of people value their relationship with their neighbors.

 

[Norton]

Wow....deja vu, all over again......I was just having this thought the other day as I came back from the range. We're fortunate to have a "hands off" HOA that basically exists only to maintain the parks and boat slips with very few covenants placed on the individual homeowner.

If I had seen that particular covenant in the contract, I simply wouldn't have moved here.

 

[clubsoda22]

A homeowners association (at least in most parts of the country) has the right to foreclose on your home for non-payment of fines or membership fees. I was a boardmember of my last HOA in CA, and we had begun foreclosure proceedings on someone who hadn't paid their fees for several years.

That's understandable, those fee's go towards keeping the community in good condition. For instance, if you don't cut your grass for 3 months, there's a reason for a fine. It effects your neighbors and having the neighborhood look like a craphole hurts property value. You have a valid complaint. I don't see how gun ownership effects property values. If a black doctor moved into a white upperclass neighborhood, could they say, "no, we don't want you here because black people will lower our property value?"

That's pretty much untrue anywhere. There are laws, zoning regulations, and in some cases HOA rules that affect what you do IN YOUR OWN HOME. Welcome to America.

There's a big difference between something that says "you have to have fire sprinklers" and something that says "you can't have guns in your house"

 

[TechBrute]

There's a big difference between something that says "you have to have fire sprinklers" and something that says "you can't have guns in your house"

Try telling that to people in NYC or DC. Just because a law isn't "right", or even constitutional, doesn't mean it's not in place. A bunch of simpering twits puts them in place, and it's up to you to bear the cost of a legal battle in court. You're doubly screwed if you think about it... you have to hire a lawyer for your side, and your tax dollars are funding theirs.
:banghead:

 

[clubsoda22]

that's legal, we're talking civil. When the homeowners association has a problem with someone, it's taken up in civil court. In which way were the homeowners of the community damaged MONETARILY by one persons gun ownership?

 

[TechBrute]

Well, again, you are bearing the financial load. You have to support your own lawyer and your HOA fees support theirs. Playing the liberal pinko devil's advocate, you could claim that the threat of having a gun in the neighborhood drives down property values. After all, how can you let your kids play outside in a neighborhood that is ripe for random shootings.

Tell me there's no judge out there that would buy that crap.

I'm not saying it's right, just that it's the way it is.

 

[Oracle]

This is why I will never buy a house in an area governed by a homeowners association. They can exercise just as much control over what is supposedly your property as a government can, and, unlike most governments, can arbitrarily come up with rules that you must follow.

 

[Blackcloud6]

One of my rules of life: Never ever live in a community that is part of a HOA.

Last thing I want is some busy body Mrs. Cravitz telling how to decorate my home, what grass to grow, when I can do what etc. etc.

Must be something wrong with me but I can never understand why anyone would put themselves in one of these situations.

 

[Alan Fud]

... that's legal, we're talking civil. When the homeowners association has a problem with someone, it's taken up in civil court. In which way were the homeowners of the community damaged MONETARILY by one persons gun ownership? ...

Having lived under one when I was down in Florida, I can tell you that it doesn't work that way. If you do not abide by one of their covenants, they have the right to fine you. If you do not pay the fine by the date due, they will file a lein with your mortgage company. Your mortgage company does not like leins and will give you X days to correct the problem or they will foreclose on your mortgage.

The mortgage company doesn't care about what's going on. All they care about is that there is a lein against the property that they have money against and either the lein goes away or they want the entire mortgage paid off immediately.

At this point you are at the mercy of the association to remove the lein and they usually won't do it unless you pay the fine, late fees, interest, etc.

You can take the association to court but chances are that you will lose because you violated one of their covenants clearly spelled aout in black and white.

And while you're waiting for a court date, your bank is starting foreclosure procedures against you -- a truly no-win situation which is why I will never live under a home owners association ever again.

... If I had seen that particular covenant in the contract, I simply wouldn't have moved here ...

Problem is that sometimes new restrictions are added AFTER you are already living there and usually one of the covenants that you agree to is to abide with changes & additions to the covenants.

After we were living there for a couple of years, they added a new covenant limiting the number of visitors that you could have at any given time to three vehicles -- thus making it impossible to have a large party even with four other couples unless those couples car-pooled together.

Never Again!

 

[Lone_Gunman]

My thoughts:

Home Owners Association agreements are entered into voluntarily, and I see no reason why they can't ban guns if they want to, and if the new home owner agrees to participate. He voluntarily surrenders his right to own firearms when he enters into the agreement, and therefore there is no rights violation.

If you don't like the covenants, why would you want to buy the property?

 

[clubsoda22]

conversely, tech, the lack of guns drives down property value as it makes the community a target for burgalers.

In the primary case here, the gunowning homeowner is likely the only one that has evidence to support that, as his residence was burglarized. I'm just going to wildly assume that this particular home owner hasn't gunned down his neighbors children recently as they were playing touch football on his lawn, despite how tempting it may be for law abiding gun owners to shoot children (according to the experts at HCI), you know, because they're there.

 

[Alan Fud]

... the lack of guns drives down property value as it makes the community a target for burgalers ...

Unfortunately, some people do not think that way. Ask an anti if he/she wants to live never door to someone who owns a gun and guess what their answer is going to be?

Put a majority of them on the Home Owners Association governing board and guess what happens?

 

[Alan Fud]

... If you don't like the covenants, why would you want to buy the property? ...

See my reply above -- NEW covenants can usually be added AFTER you move in.

 

[TechBrute]

conversely, tech, the lack of guns drives down property value as it makes the community a target for burgalers.

It's really hard for me to argue with good logic. I was just playing the devil's advocate, and you KNOW that there are people who would honestly take up that side.

 

[whoami]

Get this, the homeowner is being fined because there is a covenant in the homeowners association for his neighborhood prohibiting residents to own firearms!

Yep, then the homeowner is SOL. Much as I disagree with it, he signed the contract and therefore put himself in the position of being obligated to abide by it. The HOA now has the right to fine him, and generally make his life miserable if they so choose. Wasn't there some line about when somebody in the DOJ was going to add HOAs to the list of known terrorist organization.

I also find this sadly amusing.....I'm currently living back at home (so I can save up some money for a downpayment on a condo), which is a HOA governed adult community. Haven't checked if there's a proviso re: firearms in the covenant, but if it's there I'd have a good laugh....as in the 3 years since the place was built there have been at least 5 attempted break ins and 2-3 successful break ins on the houses next to a small forest. And this even though the police station is less than 2 miles away.....

See my reply above -- NEW covenants can usually be added AFTER you move in.

Actually, what I've found is more prevalent is not the adding of NEW covenants (it does happen, but the mechanism of the HOA usually requires the vote of all the members) but, just like with the 2A in our legal system, the 'reinterpretation' of existing covenant statutes to mean something completely different.

For example, in the HOA that governs my mothers property, there is a clause that states that all cars should be parked in their respective garages, unless otherwise impracticable. A fair amount of people usually had at least one car on the driveway, mostly because of things like having the garage renovated, or the garage being used as temporary storage space from moving in. This generally wasn't an issue until some old badger got too upset at his neighbors always having a car on their driveway (it 'detracted from the picturesque quality of the property' apparently) and decided to launch a one man war campaign against the HOA council. The result was that, in a subsequent issue of the newsletter, the statute was 'reinterpreted' to mean that all cars MUST be parked in their respective garages, and that the garage being used as 'storage' had no bearing whatsoever. Last I heard several fines had already been levied on the subject.

The interesting thing is that if you have more than two cars (or two big boat cars, as the garages are not that large) then they are basically forcing you to arrange for offsite storage of your vehicles, as you can't park them on the driveway, nor can you park them in the visitors parking lot...

 

[XavierBreath]

My first thought was why would anyone want to live where a HOA banned guns? It seems like it would be a criminal's Wal-Mart to me............

 

[Highland Ranger]

There's a big difference between something that says "you have to have fire sprinklers" and something that says "you can't have guns in your house"

Not to some people; both are safety measures . . . . for your own good of course.

 

[clubsoda22]

question, how much athority do homeowners associations have if your mortgage has been paid off and you actually OWN your property?

 

[Smoke]

And once again I have to say "Thank You" to whatever being or force put me in the middle of rural America.

No HOA, no dues, my land, do what I want, leave me alone.

No condolences to those not as fortunate.

Smoke

 

[Obiwan]

I lived in a neighborhood that had that same rule....boy was I in violation!

HOA can be a good thing....they can prevent your neighbor from letting his house go to crap....keep him from running an auto repair business in his yard, etc.

They can help keep your property values high.

But they can also get out of hand......

It all depends on the group...some are real bastards about the rules....

Some see them more as guidelines....and only really enforce them when someone goes too far.

 

[Swamprabbit]

I have no personal experience with HOAs but it sounds to me like a contractual issue. If the homeowner enters into a contract as a condition of buying a home, then the homeowner is bound by the terms and conditions of that contract. The only exception would be for any terms that compliance to would require actions contrare to any applicable laws. My guess is that in this case, the home owner is screwed.

Not the way I'd want it to turn out but the issue does sould pretty straight forward.

Being a former city commissioner in a small town, I can sympathize with what HOAs try to do in keeping up property values BUT I could NEVER think of making a long term decision to live under these circumstances. There were reasons why I moved out of the small town and into the country.

 

[sctman800]

This sounds like the story I found in the Chicago Tribune this morning. This happened in Wilmette, Chicago suburb and according to the Tribune there is a Village ordinance banning owenership of handguns. There might also be a HOA but it wasent mentioned in the article I read. Either way the whole idea is probably just to keep me from moving there, and it is working. Jim.