Can a homeowners assocation ban guns?

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I'm gonna go out on a limb here , But couldn't the guy counter the HOA
by threatening legal action for not protecting his property from the crimanal
in the first place?:confused:
 
I have lived for 14 years in a community that has a HOA. Never again. For the first 10 years they were a fairly good. Then a year & a half ago they began to think they are the lords of the fifedom and the serfs shall dance to their tune. They control the type of roof you can put on your house. Only wooden shingles for about seven years and then we could put composit shingles on if we used the approved ones. Have a small boat? Not on your property even if it under your deck out of sight. BTW, the president of the HOA did that until he got caught when the board was going after others doing the same. Lie about what the by-laws say by showing a document they say are the by-laws even though they are not what is filed with the city. Want to change something the HOA doesn't want to have changed? Can't do that as it requires a 90% affirmative vote in order to change it. Also we can't get an answer for where $40,000 went.

If you don't pay your fees then the HOA will place a lien on the property and it must be cleard befor you may sell it. I can't argue with this. We do get walking trails, swiming pools and tennis courts. And the "green ways" must be kept up.

Overall, HOA are not a good thing for the home owners.:fire: :fire:
 
Here's a recent article in the NYT regarding HOA. I bought a new home in a relatively new subdivision and had some well-meaning neighbors trying to start up a HOA - and I wasn't biting. I later found this article as fodder to convince some of my neighbors that perhaps it wasn't such a good idea after all.


Homeowner Boards Blur Line of Who Rules Roost

July 27, 2003
By MOTOKO RICH


PHOENIX - Joseph Haggerty may own the most expensive
garbage can in America.

Because he kept it in the front yard, not the back, his homeowners association took him to court for violating community rules. After a four-year standoff over whether neighbors could see it behind a shrub, he lost and was ordered to pay $11,978.75 in fines and legal fees.

For Ralph Blevins, the problem was an unsightly toolshed
behind his town house in Raleigh, N.C. His homeowners association removed the shed one night, and Mr. Blevins, a 62-year-old civil engineer, protested by withholding $750 in maintenance fees. The association foreclosed and bought the town house at an auction for just $3,000.

About one in six people in the nation, or roughly 50
million residents, lives in a community governed by a homeowners association, from co-op buildings in New York City to suburban subdivisions. Formed to take care of the small tasks that fall through the cracks of municipal government, like picking up garbage and repainting curbs, some homeowners associations are asserting far broader powers, backed by local courts.

Cities and counties, which are reluctant to raise taxes to
pay for services, have in many cases stepped aside,
allowing associations to become de facto governments with increasing authority over daily life.

The growth of associations has created "a whole sector of people who don't use public services," said Evan McKenzie, a professor of political science at the University of Illinois in Chicago who has written widely about the subject. Homeowners who live in such communities, he added, "don't need local governments."

Homeowners associations collect dues, which finance a
variety of things, including landscaping and playgrounds.
The boards, composed of elected volunteers, dictate house
paint colors, lawn-mowing schedules and parking policies
for recreational vehicles. The boards can fine residents
who break these rules and, in some cases, foreclose on homeowners who cannot afford the monthly dues.

While many homeowners say the codes preserve neighborhood harmony and property values, a growing and vocal group of opponents say the way association rules are enforced is actually tearing apart communities. "Homeowners associations are based on a negative attitude that you can't trust your own neighbor," said George Staropoli, a business broker in Phoenix who founded Citizens Against Private Government H.O.A.'s two years ago.

Grass-roots networks of critics, linked by the Internet,
have formed to lobby state legislatures. Lawmakers in
Arizona, California and Texas have proposed measures restricting the powers of homeowners associations to foreclose without due process.

About 20 million homes, of 106 million in the country, are governed by an association. That is a 21 percent increase since 1998, according to the Community Associations Institute in Alexandria, Va., whose members include homeowners associations, property managers and lawyers.

Part of the growth has been fueled by builders who lure
buyers with amenities like pools, golf courses and
recreation centers, and then - when the builders move on - shift the costs of maintaining those perks to a homeowners association. The associations are usually created by the developer, and a buyer signs a contract agreeing to abide by the rules.

Cities and counties generally support - and sometimes
require - the associations because they often pick up the
costs of building public parks and roads. In Phoenix, an estimated 85 percent of new homes are built in communities governed by homeowners associations. Gilbert, Ariz., about 25 miles east of Phoenix and the fastest-growing city in the country last year, according to the census, issues building permits only to developers who build within an association.

In a 1999 Gallup poll commissioned by the Community Associations Institute, 75 percent of respondents said they were "very or extremely satisfied" with their associations. "People are moving to communities like that because they are looking to create a lifestyle for themselves," said Paul D. Grucza, president-elect of the institute.

But only 40 percent of those surveyed said they would buy
their next home in a community governed by an association.

Critics say that the boards, while elected, have few
checks and balances, and often act in secret. They "are
made up of good old boys who just want to go into a
backroom and decide what's best for everybody," said Bob
Finn, a retired judge from Nebraska who won a spot on the
board at Sun City West, a resort community in Phoenix, by campaigning for open government.

"People have egos, and they get into power positions and
they can fine you for not trimming your bushes," Mr. Finn
said. In a recreation center, he added, "if you speak
unkindly to a clerk they can deny you your privileges to
use your facilities. The only way you can change that is by electing new board members."

For a homeowner with a serious complaint about the board,
there is no third party to mediate other than the courts,
an alternative that few can afford. With the courts as a
first and last resort, a squabble easily escalates into a neighborhood battle.

The Great Trash Can War began in 1998, when Mr. Haggerty -
who is now 37 and a father of three - refused to put his
green plastic garbage can where the rules in his 82-house community require it: in the backyard. He partly concealed it behind a shrub but the board said the can could still be seen from neighboring properties. Mr. Haggerty refused to pay a $50 fine, and after the homeowners association obtained the nearly $12,000 court judgment, the board garnished the bank account of his pizzeria. A judge ruled that the association had acted improperly when it took money from a business account and ordered the board to return the money to Mr. Haggerty, but by that time he had been compelled to close his business. "You don't realize how much power they have until you are in court," he said.

In his quiet subdivision of pale stucco homes, Mr.
Haggerty's sympathizers portray him as the victim of a power-hungry board and its lawyers. But board members and their supporters said he brought it on himself by stubbornly flouting association rules.

"He was basically thumbing his nose at the whole
neighborhood," said Steven Miyoshi, a board member.

Nevertheless, Mr. Haggerty wore his neighbors down. The can remains in the front yard. Board members "wanted to avoid arguing anymore," said the current board president, Sherry Fong.

Tensions between homeowners and their associations have increased as these communities have proliferated, attracting an increasingly diverse population. Many newcomers join a community run by an association without fully understanding what they are getting into.

"Most people are just looking for a house," said Professor McKenzie. "They want dominion over their property and suddenly they discover that their neighbors can tell them when they can fly the flag or when they can put up holiday lights or that they can't park their car in their own driveway."

The biggest complaint stems from the association boards' ability to evict residents - in some cases for bad behavior, but more often for not paying dues.

No national figures on association foreclosures are
available. But analysis of court records in the Houston
area by homeowers identified more than 15,500 filings
between 1985 and 2001 that could have led to foreclosure, according to their Web site, www.HOAdata.org.

Sentinel Fair Housing Corporation, a nonprofit group in Oakland, Calif., found that in 2001, in four counties around San Francisco, homeowners associations initiated 15 percent of foreclosures. The median amount owed to associations at foreclosure was $2,400, with $800 to $1,800 of that in penalties and legal fees rather than debts.

It is rare, though, that a homeowner will actually lose a
home to an association foreclosure. "The whole goal here is
to get the homeowner to pay his or her share of costs, not
to take away houses," said Burton Cohen, a lawyer in Scottsdale, Ariz., who has handled about 100 association foreclosures in the last three years. The vast majority of owners, he said, kept their homes.

But the mere threat of foreclosure can result in owners
paying legal fees that far exceed the fines or dues they
owe. When lawyers threatened to foreclose on her San Diego
town house condo three years ago because of unpaid dues, Melissa Colburn, a 34-year-old homeowner, said she paid about $3,000 to her homeowners association's lawyers, though she owed only $1,000. "I freaked out," she said.

Then she missed other payments, incurring debts of about
$900. In February 2002 the association foreclosed, and her
home was sold for $5,150. Ms. Colburn did not know about it until eight months later, when she received a notice to vacate. David Peters, the association's lawyer, said, "She knows that if she doesn't pay her assessments, it's going to go to foreclosure."

She sued the homeowners association and its lawyers. Last
week the two sides reached an agreement to return the condo
to Ms. Colburn.

Last year, California passed a law requiring boards to give homeowners a chance to work out a payment plan before foreclosing. In 2001, the Texas Legislature banned foreclosures for violations of community rules.

A bill proposed this year in Texas would have given
homeowners a 180-day reprieve before a foreclosure could proceed. The bill did not pass but its sponsor, Senator Jon Lindsay, a Republican, said he would offer a modified version next session. "I'm not against having homeowner associations," Mr. Lindsay said. "In fact I favor them, but I think they have expanded their powers a little too far."

Some association advocates say the new laws weaken
community boards. They argue that the boards are no
different from city governments that foreclose on
homeowners who do not pay property taxes.

That was the position of the Suncreek Townhomes Homeowners Association in Raleigh, which foreclosed on Mr. Blevins's town house when he refused to pay part of his maintenance fees. "We had responsibilities to other town home owners," said Michelle Wells, president of the association board.

The dispute ended in a settlement out of court. Mr.
Blevins, who paid $60,000 for the house in 1990, got his
town house back by reimbursing the association the $3,000
it had paid for the home and legal fees of nearly $4,300.

Some homeowners argue that foreclosure is a draconian
measure and is often unwarranted. In Mr. Haggerty's neighborhood, for instance, residents are divided over the plight of Carol Farnham, a 54-year-old disabled single mother who owes dues for nearly two years because, she said, her former husband is delinquent in paying child support. Last January, the association obtained a court judgment of $1,487.85 and put a lien on her home. "This isn't what neighbors do," said Mr. Haggerty, sitting on a worn couch in his living room.

Ms. Fong, the president of the association, said it offered
to halve the fines associated with Ms. Farnham's judgment
if she agreed to pay the back dues. Ms. Farnham did not
respond to the offer and so far, the board has not begun foreclosing.

Tensions in some communities have provoked homeowners
simply to get out. Ms. Fong said she and her husband
planned to leave as soon as they could afford it. The
constant fights with her neighbors, she said, have taken a toll.

"I don't think homeowners associations themselves are
wrong," Ms. Fong said. "It's the individuals who live near you."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/27/national/27HOME.html?ex=1060290711&ei=1&en=afddb48cc927a50c
 
Maybe the HOA can ask you to move out or spend thousands on a lawyer. One of my best friends lives in Knoxville. He goes to the Smokies with a gun in his pack. He is not supposed to but he comes back to the old refrain, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

Unless the HOA makes midnight raids into your bedroom, how are they going to know? I'd tell them to stick the fine where the sun don't shine and move. It would probably break the average Joe to fight the lawyers on this. That's why if you are starting a revolution you kill the lawyers first!
 
I read something back just after 9-11 about a HOA taking a guy to court because he put a flag pole and american flag in his front yard. The HOA wanted it removed.
 
Don't know about the rest of the country, but in WV changes in legislation and numerous court decisions from lawsuits over the past few years have pretty much gutted any HOA's ability to control what you do with/on your private property. I was president of our HOA until I moved a few months ago, and our attorney advised us that despite what was written in the covenants, the Association had zero remaining authority over anything but the common areas (roads, parking areas, greenways). If my neighbor put up a storage shed or fence and I didn't like it, my only recourse would be to sue him personally.

As far as the lien thing, we placed them all the time for unpaid assessments and I never heard of anybody being threatened with foreclosure by their mortgage company.
 
A careful read of any HOA covenants are in order if you purchase a home subject to covenants.

You are signing a contract and a contract can contain damm near anything including the abrogation of what would otherwise be your rights under the constitution.

If you sign em away, you are on your own.
 
On another general-interest forum I post on, it was asked how best to defend one's self, and one person pointed out that their HOA did not permit ownership of firearms.
I immediately asked if her home-owner's association prohibited blacks and whites drinking from the same faucet and women from voting.
(-I'm like that--smooth and subtle-)
I told her to get a firearm anyway if she wanted one, and get a good lawyer if they gave her any flak about it.
~
 
The best one I heard was when Colorado Springs voted to ban shake roofs.

The city said they would not prevent any suits by HOA that REQUIRED them.
 
I checked and made sure there was no HOA in any form before I moved in here. In fact, my quiet little town doesn't even have zoning laws. That's why I didn't have to pay anybody any blood money or wait for some bureaucrat to "inspect" my work before I could build a small workshop in the back yard. This was a deliberate part of our decision; we could have bought a fairly new, nicely finished house on the north edge of town, but that would have been in the next county over and thus subject to all sorts of onerous zoning laws, it was a little bungalow with no personality at all, and it was in a subdivision. I hate subdivisions. There was probably a HOA, judging by the appearance of conformity in that place, but I didn't get around to checking.

Instead, we spent a lot less on our 100-year-old money pit. When complete, it will be a mansion compared to that bungalow, and it's in a nice old neighborhood, not a subdivision. I can walk to every bookstore and park in town, and there is NO HOA.


Now, the part I can't figure out how to avoid is that apparently an HOA can be formed by 51% of the houses in my neighborhood, whether I consent or not, and I will then be bound by their stupid rules. Forget that. I will sell and leave before that happens.
 
Theres a gated community near me that bans handguns.When i was looking for a home with the realtor,the first thing i noticed when stopped at the gate was the "No handguns are allowed in Socialist Acres".Needless to say i passed on that one.
 
... how much athority do homeowners associations have if your mortgage has been paid off and you actually OWN your property ...
If you have no mortgage, then a lein is placed against the title to your property. When you go to sell, the house will not sell with a lein against it. Depending on how long the fine was unpaid, a hundred dollar fine can grow into thousands of dollars with late fees, finance charges, interest on top of interest, etc.
... I read something back just after 9-11 about a HOA taking a guy to court because he put a flag pole and american flag in his front yard. The HOA wanted it removed ...
That was me and it was before 9/11. Check the old posts on TFL for the full story.
... I never heard of anybody being threatened with foreclosure by their mortgage company ...
I can't speak for all mortgage companies but in 2000, Wells Fargo wanted the lein removed from my property or the note paid off in full. No room for discussion.
 
there is a covenant in the homeowners association for his neighborhood prohibiting residents to own firearms!
He signed the agreement as a condition to moving in, why is it a problem now? They couldn't have put a gun to his head and forced him to sign. If he won't stand up for his rights but elects to give them away, thats poor judgement on his part.
 
No, No, a thousand times, NO!

I'm sure that the owner will be able to have the rule changed through legal recourse or other acommodations will be made.


You are signing a contract and a contract can contain damm near anything including the abrogation of what would otherwise be your rights under the constitution. If you sign em away, you are on your own.


it sounds to me like a contractual issue. If the homeowner enters into a contract as a condition of buying a home, then the homeowner is bound by the terms and conditions of that contract

{and all other sentiments of this ilk.}


:fire: Shame on every last one of you who is willing to lose their focus on the big picture in favor of the weasily ways of lawyers.

unalienable adj : incapable of being repudiated or transferred to another; "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights"

You CAN NOT SIGN AWAY UNALIENABLE RIGHTS, THEY ARE UNALIENABLE.

NO valid contract can be constructed thus.

*Spank*

I expect more from the members of this forum, who carry on daily about Freedom, Liberty, Unalienable rights, and the notion of self determination.

What the heck good is any of those noble ideas if we turn tail and take refuge in the first copout our opponents allow us?

"Well, there's a process you can undergo...."

"There are forms you can fill out...."

"Well, you see, by doing A, you agreed to B...."

"You can work with the system to change it...."

"You can file a suit/complaint whatever...."

THERE ARE SOME BRIGHT LINES IN THE SAND, and RKBA is one of them.

Now as for the essence of the original question, can an HOA infringe RKBA, the answer is NO, THEY CAN'T.

They might think they can.

They might fool you into thinking they can.

They might levy fines for "violations"

They might take you to court.

You might take them to court.

You might even lose.

The reality is that sometimes, you HAVE TO FIGHT for what is yours, and you don't always win, but the bottom line is THEY'RE 100% WRONG ALL THE WAY.


{Harumph}

Edited to Add:

------------------------------
I'm still AGHAST that members of this forum are so easily willing to argue that an HOA, arguably the most trivial of our various institutions is imbued with some righteous power of trumping our unalienables.

If our unalienables are so fragile, so insubstantial that we are willing to surrender them to a home owners association, then all is lost.
------------------------------
 
It depends GREATLY on the laws of the state where the HOA is located whether it could ban ownership of firearms or not.

Virginia HOA laws wouldn't allow my HOA to do that.

I've been a board member on my HOA for almost 10 years now, and vice president for the past 7.

In Virginia HOAs have, in many ways, more power than towns. I've worked VERY hard to make sure that my association remains as low impact and uninvasive as possible.

Just as with any other form of representative government, HOAs can be a good thing or a bad thing.

It's up to the person buying the property to be an INFORMED consumer.

Be cognizant of your state's laws regarding HOAs.

Get a copy of the rules and covenants and READ THEM. Carefully.

Go to a meeting of the board.

Ask for copies of the annual budget, audit report (not having an independent audit done at LEAST every other year should be a flashing red light). Most states require that these documents be provided even to those who are not residents, but who are looking at buying.

Talk to some residents. Go pound on doors, and ask them questions.

If you find covenant rules & regs. that you don't think you can live with, DON'T BUY THE DAMNED PROPERTY!

I did all of this before I bought my house 10 years ago, and it was the best thing I could have done.

Far too many people buy a property knowing that there are CRRs that they don't like, but they think that they can be a swining richard and get the HOA to back down, and then they wonder why the HOA comes down on them like a ton of bricks and they whine like little girls.

It's happened in my community, and the confrontation has ALWAYS been forced by the homeowner being unwilling to discuss the situation like an adult. It's always been a childish display of "I want it my way!"

Two homeowners who tried this tactic actually tried to force it at the annual meeting of members, and were rather shocked when their proposals from the floor were RESOUNDINGLY defeated by the rest of the membership.

Homeowner's associations have one true purpose -- to protect the property values of all members jointly by administering commons properties and by ensuring that the CCRs that have been agreed to by members are administered, upheld, and enforced fairly.

I bought my town home 10 years ago for $154,900.

Two properties in my community have now sold for OVER $300,000.

While property prices in my area have gone up, they haven't gone up that much.

That they have gone up that much in my community is largely because of the efforts of the HOA.

Are there HOAs that are out of control? Hell yes. But the primary reason why these HOAs are out of control? Because the community residents don't give a damn about what the HOA does until the HOA gets out of hand.

I don't care WHERE you live -- GET INVOLVED IN YOUR COMMUNITY.

Oh, that old man and his flag in Jupiter, Florida? The one that got such attention in the news?

The HOA didn't prohibit the display of flags. It only prohibited detached flag poles. The old man could have attached it to his house, but no, that wasn't good enough for him. He had to be a swinging richard.

The HOA attempted numerous times to reach a negotiated agreement with the old man. He was willing, as long as the negotiated agreement was a 100% victory for him. He had to be a swinging richard.

I've got ZERO pity, sympathy, or empathy for the old man.

The latest I've heard is that the foreclosure sale of his home has been delayed by the court (September 25).
 
Here's a question. What if a home in the HOA sells on the open market and the buyer doesn't sign any HOA contract, but simply buy the home from the former owner. Can the buyer be legally stopped from purchasing said home without an agreement if the original owner is willing to sell to him/her? If not then the HOA would have no right imposing fines or property decisions over the new owner. Taking into consideration that there will be poor neighborhood relations, but this is from a legal aspect.

I personally could care less what my neighbor thinks, as long as we reconize where the property line divides us.
 
You don't "sign" an HOA agreement per se. It's not a separate document -- it's part and parcel to the deed.

By purchasing the house, you agree to the restrictions placed on the deed by the HOA covenants.

It's not unlike buying a property that has mineral rights restrictions associated with the deed.
 
Was this in one of those walled in places? A condo developement? Retirement villages? If so, the guy is SOL. Although, I'd bet he could sue based on the violation of his Constitutional rights. If it's just a regular suburban block they can't do squat. Home Owner Associations have no legal authority to do anything. Unless the Association is the landlord and you don't really own anything.
 
Sunray,

"Home Owner Associations have no legal authority to do anything."


WRONG

As has been noted, HOAs have legal authority that can, in many states, be MUCH greater than that extended to towns or even cities.

It doesn't matter one bit whether or not the community is gated, walled, roofed, or moated.

What matter are:

1. the laws governing the actvities of property associations (HOAs, condo associations, cooperatives, community associations, etc.) in that state.

2. the deed restrictions included on the property persuant to the laws regarding the kind of association that the property is in.
 
When shopping for homes the first thing out of my mouth was "No HOA". Because they do have power and it can be abused and I'd rather live and let live.
 
No not that one but this one in my neck of the woods.



http://www.ccfj.net/flyoldgloryTen3.html



Senate votes to halt bans on flagpoles
Article Courtesy of "The Tennessean"

By BONNA de la CRUZ
Posted Thursday, 4-10-2003
Come July 4, Franklin resident Michael Beckett envisions raising an American flag up a new flagpole in the front yard of his home in Fieldstone Farms.

The state Senate gave his vision a boost yesterday, approving a bill that would prohibit homeowner associations from banning flagpoles in yards.

Beckett got into trouble with the Fieldstone Farms Homeowners Association for erecting a 20-foot flagpole after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

''I think it's our right to display the American flag and the flag of Tennessee,'' said Sen. Mae Beavers, R-Mt. Juliet, bill sponsor. The bill only covers the U.S. and Tennessee flags.

Beckett defied the homeowners association's rules against flagpoles in yards — they permit flagpoles attached to homes — until he faced a stiff fine and took the pole down.

''I don't want a small group of people telling me how, when, where and why I can fly the most recognized symbol of freedom in the world,'' said Beckett, who works in corporate communications for Saturn in Maury County.

But Jack Beaudoin, president of the Fieldstone Farms Homeowners Association, said Beckett is the one who is bypassing the desires of the majority by getting legislation passed.

Residents who purchase homes in the development do so partly because covenants ensure an ''attractive, harmonious physical environment,'' Beaudoin said, saying the legislation takes away ''the majority's right to self determination.''

Beckett had the opportunity to change association rules by getting signatures on a petition but did not, Beaudoin said, noting that resident sentiment appeared against flagpoles.

A straw poll taken at an annual meeting of the association with about 100 residences in attendance showed no support, other than Beckett and his wife, for changing the rules, Beaudoin said.

Beckett contended that only about 30 people out of 2,200 homes in the development attended.

The bill is scheduled for a House subcommittee meeting on Tuesday.
 
I would think that rules governing anything on the outside of your house, i.e., features that are publically displayed and therefore could have an impact on property values, could be enforced, but what what about what goes on inside your house? Could an HOA dictate that you attend dinner in a smoking jacket? Could they dictate that pray only on Sundays? IOW, could a HOA violate state constitutions?
 
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