Mike Irwin
Member
"Because they do have power and it can be abused and I'd rather live and let live."
And that's different from any other form of government.... how?
And that's different from any other form of government.... how?
Can a homeowners assocation ban guns?
- Thread starter BryanP
- Start date
- Status
Mike Irwin
Member
"Beckett defied the homeowners association's rules against flagpoles in yards — they permit flagpoles attached to homes — until he faced a stiff fine and took the pole down.
''I don't want a small group of people telling me how, when, where and why I can fly the most recognized symbol of freedom in the world,'' said Beckett, who works in corporate communications for Saturn in Maury County."
A situation similar to that of the old man in Jupiter, Florida.
Note that the association did NOT ban the flying of flags, it only restricted the type of pole on which they could be flown.
''I don't want a small group of people telling me how, when, where and why I can fly the most recognized symbol of freedom in the world,'' said Beckett, who works in corporate communications for Saturn in Maury County."
A situation similar to that of the old man in Jupiter, Florida.
Note that the association did NOT ban the flying of flags, it only restricted the type of pole on which they could be flown.
Black Snowman
Member
That part is consistant but a HOA I can actively avoid and I'm not born into it. It's not a government by chance, it's a government by choice. I can't even count how many times I've been greatful I was born in the USA. As many problems as we have there's no other place I'd rather live.
Smurfslayer
Member
defeating HOAs
WRT Mike Irwin's post - sage advice, get involved, know the rules...
First, my primary HOA experience is in MD. I rewrote and got enforced the entire parking restriction section of our covenants, way back when. Part of the test of the HOAs authority goes directly to the bylaws and purpose of the covenants, association and rules. There has to be a reasonable relationship of the rule to the stated purpose of the bylaws. For example, if the sole purpose is to "preserve property values and neighborhood appearance", there is no reasonable relationship to establish a ban on firearms possession. 2nd, as a matter of law, each person is entitled to the "Quiet enjoyment of their property", which this rule would infringe. 3rd, and finally, enforcement. Someone would have to ask the homeowners the direct question, which you would be under no obligation to answer. Or, they would have to inspect your house
riiiiiiiight. As part of my covenants review, I had language stricken from the covenants about members of the board or covenants committee accessing property and doing work in the event the homeowner was noncompliant. Why? The lawyer we hired for review advised us to verify the legality of all enforcement actions set forth. Property access was forbidden; Being on the HOA, or Covenants committee gives you exactly ZERO more authority than any other citizen. I was told directly by the local patrol sergeant, and every other police official I spoke with - unauthorized access = trespass at the very least, and the offender would be arrested.
If that's not enough to yank the HOA chain, there's the issue of "temporary" compliance. Let's say that Mr. & Mrs. Smurfslayer are suffering through a very hot summer with a central air unit that just ain't cutting it. Mr. Smurfslayer throws in a $ 100 window shaker...
VERBOTEN! 1st, they have to notify me of violation - since I'm on the Covenants committee, I know that the Verbal warning I get from renegade power monger president is not legally sufficient - that's 2 weeks. So I get a letter of violation, which I am given 2 weeks to respond to. On day 12, I request a board hearing which just happens to be 29 calendar days away... At the board hearing, I present the facts and am overruled - a clear violation, and that is an issue of Fact which Mr. Smurfslayer does not raise. But wait ! I am entitled to appeal to the full HOA board upon denial which does not meet for - another 30 days. Appeal denied, and I am given 14 days to comply, or, the HOA will file a court case to have the court force compliance. By this time, I'm already out of the hot months, so I take it out, and as a matter of general principle, I advise the board in writing, via certified mail that I have removed the window shaker, and request that they inspect, and report back in writing that they concur. They do. Now, I am free to put the unit back
and the clock starts all over again... Of course, if it ever gets to court, as a repeat offender, I would be toast, but so what... Fortunately I'm now in VA and proud to be HOA negative !
HTH
WRT Mike Irwin's post - sage advice, get involved, know the rules...
First, my primary HOA experience is in MD. I rewrote and got enforced the entire parking restriction section of our covenants, way back when. Part of the test of the HOAs authority goes directly to the bylaws and purpose of the covenants, association and rules. There has to be a reasonable relationship of the rule to the stated purpose of the bylaws. For example, if the sole purpose is to "preserve property values and neighborhood appearance", there is no reasonable relationship to establish a ban on firearms possession. 2nd, as a matter of law, each person is entitled to the "Quiet enjoyment of their property", which this rule would infringe. 3rd, and finally, enforcement. Someone would have to ask the homeowners the direct question, which you would be under no obligation to answer. Or, they would have to inspect your house
riiiiiiiight. As part of my covenants review, I had language stricken from the covenants about members of the board or covenants committee accessing property and doing work in the event the homeowner was noncompliant. Why? The lawyer we hired for review advised us to verify the legality of all enforcement actions set forth. Property access was forbidden; Being on the HOA, or Covenants committee gives you exactly ZERO more authority than any other citizen. I was told directly by the local patrol sergeant, and every other police official I spoke with - unauthorized access = trespass at the very least, and the offender would be arrested.
If that's not enough to yank the HOA chain, there's the issue of "temporary" compliance. Let's say that Mr. & Mrs. Smurfslayer are suffering through a very hot summer with a central air unit that just ain't cutting it. Mr. Smurfslayer throws in a $ 100 window shaker...
VERBOTEN! 1st, they have to notify me of violation - since I'm on the Covenants committee, I know that the Verbal warning I get from renegade power monger president is not legally sufficient - that's 2 weeks. So I get a letter of violation, which I am given 2 weeks to respond to. On day 12, I request a board hearing which just happens to be 29 calendar days away... At the board hearing, I present the facts and am overruled - a clear violation, and that is an issue of Fact which Mr. Smurfslayer does not raise. But wait ! I am entitled to appeal to the full HOA board upon denial which does not meet for - another 30 days. Appeal denied, and I am given 14 days to comply, or, the HOA will file a court case to have the court force compliance. By this time, I'm already out of the hot months, so I take it out, and as a matter of general principle, I advise the board in writing, via certified mail that I have removed the window shaker, and request that they inspect, and report back in writing that they concur. They do. Now, I am free to put the unit back
and the clock starts all over again... Of course, if it ever gets to court, as a repeat offender, I would be toast, but so what... Fortunately I'm now in VA and proud to be HOA negative !HTH
Zundfolge
Member
Homeowners Associations like all forms of petty bureaucracy attract people who "know better" then you and have no compunction about forcing their ideas on you.
HOAs are another example of Socialism in action.
I'll stay in my old neighborhood, even if it means I have to look at that POS Subaru with no motor in my neighbor's yard, or the guy next door who refuses to EVER mow his lawn.
But my house is MY HOUSE and if I want to paint it purple and yellow polkadots, or put 500 pink flamingos in the front yard, then I can by God and there isn't anything my neighbors can do about it !
HOAs are another example of Socialism in action.
I'll stay in my old neighborhood, even if it means I have to look at that POS Subaru with no motor in my neighbor's yard, or the guy next door who refuses to EVER mow his lawn.
But my house is MY HOUSE and if I want to paint it purple and yellow polkadots, or put 500 pink flamingos in the front yard, then I can by God and there isn't anything my neighbors can do about it !
eXe
Member
My wife thought I was nuts when we moved to our new home here but I kept asking the realtor over and over again if there was a HOA. I told them in no uncertain terms that I refuse to move into any place that the local busy bodies tell me what to do. When I read these stories to my wife now she "gets it" finally.
Lucky for me, the area I moved into (So I am told) has very few if any HOA's so I got my home without the headaches of someone minding my business.
Lucky for me, the area I moved into (So I am told) has very few if any HOA's so I got my home without the headaches of someone minding my business.
Cosmoline
Member
Yes. So long as the association properly assembles and votes to amend the CC&Rs, and so long as the underlying plats and formative documents were in place when you bought the property, they can do virtually anything short of banning blacks and Jews. And IN FACT they can even do that. They just can't ask a court to enforce it.
The only way you can get properly adopted CC&R's quashed is by challenging them as the old racial covenants were challenged--when and if they're taken to court. So in this case you could argue that the court cannot be asked to enforce a CC&R that violates the second amendment. But your chances of winning are, to put it mildly, slim. We all know how most courts view the second amendment. You'd have MUCH better luck citing a state RKBA provision. They are often more clear than the 2nd and even have strong caselaw and legislative history to back them up. If this were a CC&R in Alaska, for example, I'd feel comfortable challenging it in court.
The only way you can get properly adopted CC&R's quashed is by challenging them as the old racial covenants were challenged--when and if they're taken to court. So in this case you could argue that the court cannot be asked to enforce a CC&R that violates the second amendment. But your chances of winning are, to put it mildly, slim. We all know how most courts view the second amendment. You'd have MUCH better luck citing a state RKBA provision. They are often more clear than the 2nd and even have strong caselaw and legislative history to back them up. If this were a CC&R in Alaska, for example, I'd feel comfortable challenging it in court.
Cosmoline
Member
My solution to this problem, BTW, was to simply move to a five acre parcel located in absolute no-man's land. No CC&R's no neighborhood association. Not even zoning! It's as free and clear as you can get in the modern world.
MagKnightX
Member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2003
- Messages
- 867
If you buy a house in a neighborhood without an HOA, and then an HOA is put in, but you do not sign any form of agreement binding yourself to the new HOA, are you grandfathered in?
Mike Irwin
Member
"But my house is MY HOUSE and if I want to paint it purple and yellow polkadots, or put 500 pink flamingos in the front yard, then I can by God and there isn't anything my neighbors can do about it !"
That's what shotguns are for, son.
Flamingo seaon...
That's what shotguns are for, son.
Flamingo seaon...
Mike Irwin
Member
"The lawyer we hired for review advised us to verify the legality of all enforcement actions set forth. Property access was forbidden; Being on the HOA, or Covenants committee gives you exactly ZERO more authority than any other citizen. I was told directly by the local patrol sergeant, and every other police official I spoke with - unauthorized access = trespass at the very least, and the offender would be arrested."
Smurf,
Maryland law is CONSIDERABLY different than Virginia law on HOAs.
For example, in Maryland, pretty much everything outside the home is the responsibility of the HOA -- roofs, walls, sidewalks, painting, trim, etc.
As I understand Maryland HOA law, entrance to the property by HOA board members isn't trespassing or unauthorized IF exigent circumstances require entrance to prevent damage to HOA property or adjoining properties.
The ongoing fiasco with polybutalyene piping in Maryland -- where pipes rupture at their own whim, is an example of something that can result in an exigent circumstance.
But, the question arises, just how do HOA board members gain entrance to the unit in such a situation?
By law, the board can't require that residents leave keys with the management association.
Interestingly enough, I leave a set of keys to my house with a board member.
Of course, he's a friend. If I ever found out that he entered my home on "HOA business" (especially given that I'm the VP of my HOA), he'd be in a world of hurt.
Smurf,
Maryland law is CONSIDERABLY different than Virginia law on HOAs.
For example, in Maryland, pretty much everything outside the home is the responsibility of the HOA -- roofs, walls, sidewalks, painting, trim, etc.
As I understand Maryland HOA law, entrance to the property by HOA board members isn't trespassing or unauthorized IF exigent circumstances require entrance to prevent damage to HOA property or adjoining properties.
The ongoing fiasco with polybutalyene piping in Maryland -- where pipes rupture at their own whim, is an example of something that can result in an exigent circumstance.
But, the question arises, just how do HOA board members gain entrance to the unit in such a situation?
By law, the board can't require that residents leave keys with the management association.
Interestingly enough, I leave a set of keys to my house with a board member.
Of course, he's a friend. If I ever found out that he entered my home on "HOA business" (especially given that I'm the VP of my HOA), he'd be in a world of hurt.
Mike Irwin
Member
"If you buy a house in a neighborhood without an HOA, and then an HOA is put in, but you do not sign any form of agreement binding yourself to the new HOA, are you grandfathered in?"
Good question, and again, relates to the laws of the state in question.
Virginia?
I'm not 100% certain, but I THINK that the way the laws are written, the language establishing the HOA has to be part of the original deed to the property.
IOW, no, I don't think someone could have an HOA grow up around them and then be forced into it.
If, however, the individual sold his property to the corporation developing the community, and then bought back in, he/she could very well buy back into an HOA.
Good question, and again, relates to the laws of the state in question.
Virginia?
I'm not 100% certain, but I THINK that the way the laws are written, the language establishing the HOA has to be part of the original deed to the property.
IOW, no, I don't think someone could have an HOA grow up around them and then be forced into it.
If, however, the individual sold his property to the corporation developing the community, and then bought back in, he/she could very well buy back into an HOA.
Mike Irwin
Member
"So long as the association properly assembles and votes to amend the CC&Rs, and so long as the underlying plats and formative documents were in place when you bought the property, they can do virtually anything short of banning blacks and Jews. And IN FACT they can even do that. They just can't ask a court to enforce it."
Jesus Christ...
No, that is NOT TRUE
Haven't you been reading ANYTHING I've been writing?
You know, Cosmoline, change a few words around in that little screed, and it reads like something our best buddies at the Violence Policy Center or the Brady Bunch wrote...
"These evil black hyper deadly, hyper powerful assault machine rifles have no place in modern society, being useful only for murdering women, small children...."
Here are some troublesome facts.
Hopefully this time they will take.
1. HOAs do NOT have unlimited, uncontrolled powers to dominate every aspect of life in the community.
2. Depending on the laws of the state in which the HOA is incorporated, it MAY have more powers than a local town or city -- but that is NOT necessarily true.
3. Depending on the laws of the state in which the HOA is incorporated, the powers of the HOA may be extremely limited.
4. The HOA must, at all times, follow applicable local, state, AND Federal laws on a wide variety of matters -- again, these will vary from state to state.
5. Like all other forms of government, the HOA is, or SHOULD be, responsive to the people it serves.
What to know the BIGGEST reason why HOAs get out of control?
Because of member apathy. They don't know and don't care what the HOA is doing until there's a huge problem, and then all they can do is piss and moan and blame someone else for the problem.
The biggest problem that my HOA faces on a daily basis?
Member apathy.
Call a special meeting to discuss the budgetary impact of having to resurface several parking lots and roads? No one shows up.
Raise the monthly membership fees to cover the cost of moving to professional management? No one says a word.
Have the snowplow leave a 3" high ridge of snow behind some cars when it turns the corner? Then we finally see some life out of the members, who only want to piss and moan about the horrible job that the plowing contractor did...
Doesn't matter that the plowing contractor had the community lots and roads passable HOURS before a state plow hit the road into the community.
Doesn't matter that we were, again, the FIRST community to be plowed by our contractor before he hit any of his other 35 clients.
Just wah, I have to spend 5 minutes shoveling a little snow. My life is such a
ing hardship.
Homeowner's Associations aren't the hardship, Cosmoline.
It's apathetic people who refuse to lift a goddamned finger to take an interest in their communities, their neighbor, their government, etc., but whose voices are the loudest and the whiniest when they think that they've suffered some sort of grievous insult at the hands of the HOA.
Listen to them whine, try to keep your temper in check, and ask them what their solution to the problem would be? (and I swear to God, I had a member say this to me...) "I don't know, how should I know, that's your job, you're on the board of directors!"
That's the hardship when it comes to homeowner's associations.
Jesus Christ...
No, that is NOT TRUE
Haven't you been reading ANYTHING I've been writing?
You know, Cosmoline, change a few words around in that little screed, and it reads like something our best buddies at the Violence Policy Center or the Brady Bunch wrote...
"These evil black hyper deadly, hyper powerful assault machine rifles have no place in modern society, being useful only for murdering women, small children...."
Here are some troublesome facts.
Hopefully this time they will take.
1. HOAs do NOT have unlimited, uncontrolled powers to dominate every aspect of life in the community.
2. Depending on the laws of the state in which the HOA is incorporated, it MAY have more powers than a local town or city -- but that is NOT necessarily true.
3. Depending on the laws of the state in which the HOA is incorporated, the powers of the HOA may be extremely limited.
4. The HOA must, at all times, follow applicable local, state, AND Federal laws on a wide variety of matters -- again, these will vary from state to state.
5. Like all other forms of government, the HOA is, or SHOULD be, responsive to the people it serves.
What to know the BIGGEST reason why HOAs get out of control?
Because of member apathy. They don't know and don't care what the HOA is doing until there's a huge problem, and then all they can do is piss and moan and blame someone else for the problem.
The biggest problem that my HOA faces on a daily basis?
Member apathy.
Call a special meeting to discuss the budgetary impact of having to resurface several parking lots and roads? No one shows up.
Raise the monthly membership fees to cover the cost of moving to professional management? No one says a word.
Have the snowplow leave a 3" high ridge of snow behind some cars when it turns the corner? Then we finally see some life out of the members, who only want to piss and moan about the horrible job that the plowing contractor did...
Doesn't matter that the plowing contractor had the community lots and roads passable HOURS before a state plow hit the road into the community.
Doesn't matter that we were, again, the FIRST community to be plowed by our contractor before he hit any of his other 35 clients.
Just wah, I have to spend 5 minutes shoveling a little snow. My life is such a
ing hardship. Homeowner's Associations aren't the hardship, Cosmoline.
It's apathetic people who refuse to lift a goddamned finger to take an interest in their communities, their neighbor, their government, etc., but whose voices are the loudest and the whiniest when they think that they've suffered some sort of grievous insult at the hands of the HOA.
Listen to them whine, try to keep your temper in check, and ask them what their solution to the problem would be? (and I swear to God, I had a member say this to me...) "I don't know, how should I know, that's your job, you're on the board of directors!"
That's the hardship when it comes to homeowner's associations.
clubsoda22
member
jimpeel
Member
How is the Constitution trumped by tort law? Can a person be contractually obligated to surrender a Constitutional right?
HOA rules against political placards on front lawns have been found to be unconstitutional because it squelches political free speech. How would this be any different? Is the HOA going to stand on the premise that the Second Amendment is settled law and the courts have never found an individual right to arms? What of the state Constitution?
HOA rules against political placards on front lawns have been found to be unconstitutional because it squelches political free speech. How would this be any different? Is the HOA going to stand on the premise that the Second Amendment is settled law and the courts have never found an individual right to arms? What of the state Constitution?
Not only do you bear the legal cost of the battle but they fight you with YOUR OWN money and the money of your neighbors.
Those that have not lived under a HOA just do not understand. It would be like me trying to explain what the recoil of a firearm feels like if you never fired a gun. You may get a general idea but will not fully understand unless you experience it yourself.
The bottleline is that MOST (not all but most) HOA are EVIL -- you are paying someone to legally harass you and place limits on your freedom. Having lived under one once, I will do all in my power to NEVER live under another one ever again.
Those that have not lived under a HOA just do not understand. It would be like me trying to explain what the recoil of a firearm feels like if you never fired a gun. You may get a general idea but will not fully understand unless you experience it yourself.
The bottleline is that MOST (not all but most) HOA are EVIL -- you are paying someone to legally harass you and place limits on your freedom. Having lived under one once, I will do all in my power to NEVER live under another one ever again.
Mike Irwin
Member
No, HOAs are not evil.
They're a construct -- an incorporation, a non-entity.
They have no capacity for good or evil.
Saying an HOA is inherently evil is like saying a rock or a tree is evil.
It just isn't so.
The people who make up the leadership of the HOA, on the other hand, those individuals have the capacity for good or evil.
They're a construct -- an incorporation, a non-entity.
They have no capacity for good or evil.
Saying an HOA is inherently evil is like saying a rock or a tree is evil.
It just isn't so.
The people who make up the leadership of the HOA, on the other hand, those individuals have the capacity for good or evil.
Zundfolge
Member
Or like saying a gun is evil. The evil doesn't lie in the tool, it lies in the heart of he who wields the tool.
I don't think HOAs are evil but I am not one to volunteer for yet another layer of bureaucracy over my life.
Some people I used to work for lived in a development with a rather strict HOA, and while they did do some good things, like the community swimming pool, nature trails, they still had to put up with intrusions into their life that I don't believe the good things made up for.
When his car broke down and he tried to fix it in his own driveway he was fined. When they went on vacation and forgot to have their newspaper stopped they where fined for letting their papers sit on the front porch for more then a day. When their eldest son came back from college to visit they where fined because their son drove a pickup truck and parked it in the driveway. The officers in the HOA patroled the development with clipboards on an almost daily basis just looking for people to write up.
If you're happy with your HOA, thats fine ... I'm sure there are many that are just fine. But an HOA is a bureaucracy, and petty bureaucrats are often susceptible to becoming power hungry.
JPM70535
Member
Six months ago, I moved to a new subdivision where there is an active HOA. My previous neighborhood had no active HOA (disbanded after 20 years), and the difference in the 2 is like night and day. the old neighborhood had deteriorated to the point that businesses were run out of the homes with the resultant business trailers, trucks, and Vans parked in the yards now completely devoid of grass. Cbouple that with broken down vehicles littering the driveways, unpainted houses, uncut lawns, and all of the ingredients for the degradation of a neighborhood are in place, with the resultant drop in property values assured.
In contrast, the new (TO ME) neighborhood has an active HOA that regulates issues that directly affect property values, and other quality of life issues. No Ghetto Blasters blaring at 10 db above pain, no construction prior to 7 AM, no vehicles parked in street over night, no garbage cans in view except for trash days. All these items are regulated by HOAs, and I see no down side to this.
What I would have a problem with, and the main reason to read what you sign, would be regulations dictating conduct inside the residence. Other than running a business, what takes place inside the home is at the sole discretion of the homeowner. If the HOA restricts, the RKBA in a neighborhood DON'T BUY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!bbb
In contrast, the new (TO ME) neighborhood has an active HOA that regulates issues that directly affect property values, and other quality of life issues. No Ghetto Blasters blaring at 10 db above pain, no construction prior to 7 AM, no vehicles parked in street over night, no garbage cans in view except for trash days. All these items are regulated by HOAs, and I see no down side to this.
What I would have a problem with, and the main reason to read what you sign, would be regulations dictating conduct inside the residence. Other than running a business, what takes place inside the home is at the sole discretion of the homeowner. If the HOA restricts, the RKBA in a neighborhood DON'T BUY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD!bbb
James Bondrock
Member
Should I ever buy a house, it will most assuredly not be in a cookie-cutter tract or gated community, where these HOAs are commonly found.
I can see the 'evil' part where they take your money, legally harass you and limit what you can and can not do on youur own property. What is some of the 'good' that they have the capacity to do?
I lived under one and couldn't see it. Or maybe it was just overshadowed by all of the negative things that were clearly visible.
cracked butt
Member
My solution:
1. Admit to the HOA that you were wrong to own a gun and that it will never happen again.
2. Happily pay the fine.
3. Put the HOA president and board members on speed dial on your phone so that its convenient for you to call them every other night when you 'think' you hear or see someone doing something strange in your yard or in common areas near your house at 3 AM.
4. Sell the house.
1. Admit to the HOA that you were wrong to own a gun and that it will never happen again.
2. Happily pay the fine.
3. Put the HOA president and board members on speed dial on your phone so that its convenient for you to call them every other night when you 'think' you hear or see someone doing something strange in your yard or in common areas near your house at 3 AM.
4. Sell the house.
- Status
