Can we put an end to...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it" or other variations on that theme? That sentiment seems to come up over and over, especially when you have people defending their choice of a low end caliber like .22 and others for CCW. That is a terrible standard for any sort of caliber choice. As a poster noted on another thread, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot with a pellet gun, but that doesn't mean a Crosman air pistol from Wal Mart is a good CCW choice.

Someone not wanting to get shot with caliber X does not mean that caliber will effectively stop a deadly threat. Please, stop using that as an excuse.

 

[Justin]

I don't know about a moratorium on that particular line of thinking.

After all, seeing someone spout that particular line is kind of like a sign saying "Do not take this person seriously. Ever."

 

[mbogo]

If you put an end to people saying that, how would you know when you were dealing with an idiot?

mbogo

 

[mack]

Hey, if you don't think .22lr is an adequate stopper then why don't you volunteer to get shot with it? The fact is that more people who die from being shot with a .22lr - die from being shot with a .22lr than any other cartridge. The .22lr shot out of a 1911 with a .22lr conversion kit will be just as lethal as any other .22lr. And the fact remains that the elite of the US military still often choose to use the 1911 platform. The accuracy and power of the .22lr is almost unmatched and legendary - it is a known fact that Russian tanks have been taken out by shooting a .22lr down the barrel of the tanks main gun thereby exploding the chambered tank round and exploding the tank.

And there is a reason that the .22lr is the cartridge of choice for professional assassins - because it travels faster than the speed of sound and is therefore silent.

Any self-defense expert - if they are worth their salt - will tell you that they would rather carry a gun chambered in .22lr for self-defense over carrying any other caliber of ammo without a gun.

Finally, the .22lr for years was the standard for slaughtering farm animals sent to slaughter - including 2,000 lb cattle - with that kind of stopping power it is easily a match for Grizzlies or any other predator - animal or human.

 

[writerinmo]

Mack, you really should post a disclaimer on posts like these for those of us on cold medications... I had to reread it like five times to make sure what my brain was telling me it said was actually what you had written! Love it...

 

[Jbabbler]

Ok, but only if we can ban "I would never trust my life to a gun that only cost $XXX.00 "

 

[KodiakBeer]

I always find the front sight prevents me from jamming the .22 far enough up their nostril to be effective. I'd take the front sight off but we all know sight picture is everything!

 

[herkyguy]

let's not forget that long range performance of the mighty .22lr. I know for a fact that it shoots perfectly straight out to 784 yards before dropping at all and it is too small to be affected by wind but still big enough to vaporize cattle. another reason snipers exclusively use the .22lr.

 

[writerinmo]

Dont forget that the soft lead melts at super-sonic speed, destroying any tell-tale markings that could be used to trace it back to the weapon.

 

[mack]

Jbabble wrote: "Ok, but only if we can ban "I would never trust my life to a gun that only cost $XXX.00 " "


Oh come on now - you can't be serious - life is priceless - that is why I have never paid less than 1,000 dollars or more for any of the hipoints, jennings, of davis firearms that I carry for self-defense. Also regardless of the firearm you should only use ammo for self-defense that you have already shot out of the gun and therefore know will function properly - that is why I always reload all my carry ammo - even though it is a pain to dig those bullets out of the berm.

 

[daorhgih]

Excellent thread!!

Best humor I've seen since John Browning came out of the gave to straighten out good ole' Gaston Glock. Is there any way to work them in here??

 

[NavyLCDR]

it is a known fact that Russian tanks have been taken out by shooting a .22lr down the barrel of the tanks main gun thereby exploding the chambered tank round and exploding the tank.

I would love to see that mythbusters episode!

 

[mack]

daorhgih: "Best humor I've seen since John Browning came out of the grave to straighten out good ole' Gaston Glock. Is there any way to work them in here??"

Please do not be disrespectful or disingenuous - it is a well known apocryphal fact that Gaston Glock is the unclaimed son of John Moses Browning - as Glock’s mothers family was not accepting of their daughter being married to a man who already had multiple wives in the Mormon tradition of polygamy- they therefore married her to a second husband to cover up the fact she was already married. That fact is substantiated by even a cursory examination of the life of Gaston Glock and a comparison of the Browning Hi-power and the Glock pistols.

The facts - both Browning and Glock have designed and produced guns - both Browning and Glock designed pistols - both the Hi-power and the Glock were originally chambered in 9mm - both pistols have hi-capacity magazines - both pistols are or have been used widely around the world. Sure some people say - but what about the 1911 - well of course the answer is obvious - the 1911 chambered in 45acp is considered perfection in a combat pistol - John Browning died before he could perfect the Hi-power and its design had to be finished by another designer who did a great job - but not a perfect job - therefore it was up to Gaston Glock to perfect it and thus the Glock 17 - the worlds first perfect pistol in 9mm.

I wish more posters here would be respectful of the facts and the truth - I only make up facts and truth that I can verify.

 

[Jbabbler]

Jbabble wrote: "Ok, but only if we can ban "I would never trust my life to a gun that only cost $XXX.00 " "





Oh come on now - you can't be serious - life is priceless - that is why I have never paid less than 1,000 dollars or more for any of the hipoints, jennings, of davis firearms that I carry for self-defense. Also regardless of the firearm you should only use ammo for self-defense that you have already shot out of the gun and therefore know will function properly - that is why I always reload all my carry ammo - even though it is a pain to dig those bullets out of the berm.

True, I always carry pre-expanded JHP's. Unfortunately I have to shoot 70gr .32's from my 50 G.I. to do it but I know I'll never have to worry about expansion.

At the last gun show I saw a vendor with some Keltec P11's for $199.00 I would never trust my life to a $199 gun so I offered him $750 for it. He resisted, we haggled, I walked away and pretended to be disgusted. Later, as I walked by on my way to the door, he motioned me over and we worked a deal. In the end I got it for $725 out the door. Not quite what I was hoping but still better than the original price.

 

[smartshot]

yeah man, this conversation is weird

 

[Carter]

I would love to hear Mack's "facts" on the AR-15 vs AK debate.


I've seen a pellet gun take down a boar/pig with a good shot to the head. Wouldn't carry it for SD, wouldn't wanna be shot with it either.
Personally, I don't see why people get so worked up over caliber wars. It doesn't effect someone personally, unless you have highly over worked feelings that a talk show wouldn't even want to touch.

I second this ban...except for those who wish to show their stupidity.

 

[CraigC]

IMHO, it's not to be taken literally. More of a "put your money where your mouth is" sort of sentiment. In other words, if you think a particular cartridge is useless for any particular task, or that a particular firearm is only effective within a certain range, volunteer.

 

[mack]

Jbabbler - I feel your pain. I too have a Kel-tec P11 - sure it was reliable out of the box - sure I could put all the rounds in the ten ring from seven yards - sure it was concealable and light weight - but I was not so much a fool as to trust my life to it. Unfortunately, I had bought my P11 from a wholesaler at list price and was unable to haggle as you did. But there is a simple but brillant solution - I pawned it - and then insisted on paying one grand to get it out of hock. At first the pawnbroker thought I was nuts - but I explained the reason for doing so and then he was very helpful and even showed me a lot of other high dollar hipoints, jennings, and davis pistols.

 

[Jbabbler]

IMHO, it's not to be taken literally. More of a "put your money where your mouth is" sort of sentiment. In other words, if you think a particular cartridge is useless for any particular task, or that a particular firearm is only effective within a certain range, volunteer.

Hmmmmm................







................ Nope.

 

[MrWesson]

I want to carry a sling shot.. you say its not adequate let me shoot you in the forehead with a rock.. I'm right!

 

[Erik M]

People saying "if you don't think caliber X is good for ____, than why don't you volunteer to get shot with it".

We can stop as soon as people admit that 5.56x45 is superior in every way to 7.62x39, and when people admit that NAA mini's are just as effective as a glock 17 for self defense.

(its a circular argument you see lol)

 

[mack]

The AK is just a clone of the AR design. During WWII Stoner designed the AR for US forces - it was never used because the original was designed to fire the lethal .22lr and was therefore in violation of the Geneva convention. However, Stalin’s spies working on the Manhattan project (which was an atomic bomb program used to cover up the highly lethal AR program) discovered the real weapons secret that the US was trying to conceal which was the AR platform. Needless to say the Soviets rushed it into production - making superficial changes to the basic design and brilliantly changing the caliber to a less lethal .30 cal in order to wound instead of outright kill which would tax enemy resources more having to care for wounded soldiers instead of just bury dead ones. Many historians misread the implied threat that Truman made to Stalin at their summit with Churchill before the end of WWII - thinking he was making veiled reference to the atomic bomb when of course he was talking about he AR. Of course Stalin already knew about it and the Soviets shocked the west with their production of the AK shortly there-after.

Later the US responded by producing the AR and shockingly doing so with almost a .22 cal round - though of course it was not an actual .22lr. Some may say well they are significantly different and the AK is more reliable or the AR is more accurate- well test it yourself if you don’t believe me or real genuine faux history. I did - I took an AK and an AR - I left both outside for a week - I then dropped both into a muddy pig pen and left them for another week - then I took both and filled both the actions and the barrels with quick set concrete and let them sit overnight. The next day I took them to the range and tried a variety of ammo - both guns reliably failed to fire - in fact not once could I work the action of either gun even after beating them repeatedly with a twenty pound sledge. So much for the myth that one is more reliable or accurate than the other. Neither showed any appreciable difference in accuracy when not firing even with a variety of ammo.

 

[PuddlePirate]

Hey, if you don't think .22lr is an adequate stopper then why don't you volunteer to get shot with it? The fact is that more people who die from being shot with a .22lr - die from being shot with a .22lr than any other cartridge. The .22lr shot out of a 1911 with a .22lr conversion kit will be just as lethal as any other .22lr. And the fact remains that the elite of the US military still often choose to use the 1911 platform. The accuracy and power of the .22lr is almost unmatched and legendary - it is a known fact that Russian tanks have been taken out by shooting a .22lr down the barrel of the tanks main gun thereby exploding the chambered tank round and exploding the tank.

And there is a reason that the .22lr is the cartridge of choice for professional assassins - because it travels faster than the speed of sound and is therefore silent.

Any self-defense expert - if they are worth their salt - will tell you that they would rather carry a gun chambered in .22lr for self-defense over carrying any other caliber of ammo without a gun.

Finally, the .22lr for years was the standard for slaughtering farm animals sent to slaughter - including 2,000 lb cattle - with that kind of stopping power it is easily a match for Grizzlies or any other predator - animal or human.

I remember back in the war...we were running low on everything...all the heavy weps platoon had left for mortars was about 500 rounds of .22lr. That was the quietest, most accurate mortar barrage I have ever witnessed...not very effective though, as I recall.

 

[Sam1911]

This thread has renewed my faith. This should be a sticky! We can now simply cite this thread as an appropriate closing to any threads that devolve into "WDYVTGSWO?"

Awesome!

 

[W.E.G.]

I don't think the .257 Roberts is a very good sniper round, but if I got shot in the head with one, I might change my mind.