Carrying a Five-Seven?

[CmdrSlander]

1. Is it done? (do people already do this?)
2. Would it be practical?
3. Practice 5.7x28mm ammo can be found where?

I'm looking at a Five-Seven or Kimber Aegis Custom II.

Thanks to everyone who responds, have a great saturday.

 

[Dnaltrop]

1) yes, people lucky enough to have collected one do sometimes carry it. 20 rounds, almost zero bullet drop at 50 feet. (yards? am tired it's a weekend)

2) it's the same size as any other full size pistol, and all that entails CCW wise.

3) when you're lucky, but some larger shops do carry it. But it seems to be only produced by FN, and sometimes in short supply.

It's been on my list for a while, just have other guns I want more.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I have nothing to add other than I'm intrigued by the platform as well and am looking forward to the responses.


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[CmdrSlander]

@Dnaltrop

"Lucky enough"

they aren't hard to find, here's a USG model in stock and ready to go: http://www.impactguns.com/fn-five-seven-usg-3-20rd-mags-3868929120-818513002509.aspx

 

[Dnaltrop]

I'm one of the old fashioned sorts who prefers to lay hands on items before resorting to Ordering online. but fair enough, Yes. Online you can get just about anything.

Saw one pop up at Sportsman's warehouse recently, and 3 at the last Gun show I've attended. "lucky enough" is just in relation to their relatively low market penetration.

Extended mag and you have a 30 round handgun as well.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

expensive plinker, nothing more.

 

[[email protected]]

We got an intelligence bulliten a few months ago that there has been a few cases where criminals are arming themselves with them due to it defeating soft body armor.

 

[bigfatdave]

We got an intelligence bulliten a few months ago that there has been a few cases where criminals are arming themselves with them due to it defeating soft body armor.

just like a rifle?
Or the much cheaper Tokarev?

let's not get on to a "cop-killer boolit" tangent, thugs and dirtbags are unlikely to be arming themselves with a high-dollar pistol firing uncommon ammo.

===

OP:
1 - sure, why not?
2 - not for me, I'm only so willing to dress around a gun - and the FiveseveN is a duty-sized gun, my current limit is a XD45c or a much thinner autoloader if it has to be longer/taller than a an Officer's 1911 or the XD45c.
3 - there are plenty of online ammo retailers, what's the mystery?

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

We got an intelligence bulliten a few months ago that there has been a few cases where criminals are arming themselves with them due to it defeating soft body armor.

that's nonsense.


5.7 does not defeat body armor unless armor piercing ammo is used-just like any other caliber.

same nonesense as cops calling black talon bullets "cop killer bullets" years ago.

 

[LightningMan]

I would not be surprized if non 5.7x28mm AP rounds could go through several layers of soft body armor. I reload for this round and was out a few days ago shooting some reloads using some Remington 50gr FMJ bullets. These where loaded pretty warm, anyway toward the end of my shooting session I wanted to see what kind of penatration these rounds had started looking for something to shoot at. Found some leftover lumber used for building the cover for the firing line, a piece of 4"x4" green treated post and a 6"x6" piece also treated. Niether pieces of wood posts stopped the round from going right through and into the ground, still throwing up some dirt like it wasn't even slowed down. I know this is not a very good test, but I have my doubts about a .45 acp making through a 6"X6" treated piece of lumber post. LM

 

[Sam Cade]

Niether pieces of wood posts stopped the round from going right through and into the ground, still throwing up some dirt like it wasn't even slowed down. I know this is not a very good test, but I have my doubts about a .45 acp making through a 6"X6" treated piece of lumber post. LM

The original specs for the 230gr/830fps .45ACP were listed as 6" of penetration into solid white pine.

 

[Strahley]

Horrible choice for a CCH

 

[DmL5]

5.7 does not defeat body armor unless armor piercing ammo is used-just like any other caliber.

Wrong.

EA's 5.7x28mm civilian ammo types defeat body armor by nature of their muzzle velocities (up to 2,500 ft/s from the Five-seveN pistol).

 

[DmL5]

1. Is it done? (do people already do this?)

Yes. The Five-seveN is a full-size pistol, but it's extremely light; a fully-loaded Five-seveN weighs the same as an empty Glock 17.

2. Would it be practical?

Yes.

3. Practice 5.7x28mm ammo can be found where?

Both of FN's 5.7x28mm loads are widely available in my local area, for .45 ACP prices.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

Wrong.

EA's 5.7x28mm civilian ammo types defeat body armor by nature of their muzzle velocities (up to 2,500 ft/s from the Five-seveN pistol).

LMAO! you're over on the firinglineforum telling everyone they're wrong about the 5.7 over there too!


MANY "civilian" loads will defeat certain types of body armor.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The Five-seveN is an expensive plinker. The round is not a good performer, even out of rifle barrels. The P90 has a purpose, but it's a very specialized one. It'd probably get the job done, but normal service calibers are better. despite our hypotheticals on these boards, very, VERY few thugs are wearing body armor.

I know this is not a very good test, but I have my doubts about a .45 acp making through a 6"X6" treated piece of lumber post. LM

They will with decent loads. 10mm? Much more. We were punching holes through 10x10 timbers with 200 gr. XTP handloads.

EA's 5.7x28mm civilian ammo types defeat body armor by nature of their muzzle velocities (up to 2,500 ft/s from the Five-seveN pistol).

Only one of the rounds they load is that fast, and by their own admission, it has core separation and fragments completely. Not a good thing, especially with a bullet that only weighs 28 grains to begin with.

From EA's site:

S4 Ultra RapTOR 28 gr. : 2,600 FPS 405 ft.lbs, "Vest shot: 8.0” penetration with 3.3” cavity at widest section.

Complete separation of the core from the jacket. The jacket has completely fragmented into fine shrapnel."

The rest are much slower:

ProtecTOR 40 Gr: 2,092 fps-389 ft.lbs
ProtecTOR II 50 Gr: 1790 fps 356 ft.lbs
PenetraTOR 55 Gr: 1,800 fps-385 ft.lbs
ExterminaTOR 45 Gr: 1,975 fps-390 ft.lbs
VarminTOR 36 Gr: 2,202 fps-388 ft.lbs
SinTOR 36 Gr.: 1,900 fps 375 ft.lbs

Besides, their stuff is EXPENSIVE. the S4 is almost $1/round AFTER you send them your $0.60/round SS192/195 Ammo for "conversion" and pay shipping both ways. The rest of their stuff is $1.14/shot before S&H.

 

[DmL5]

Only one of the rounds they load is that fast, and by their own admission, it has core separation and fragments completely.

Wrong.

EA's 5.7x28mm T6 load also achieves 2600 ft/s and it does not fragment to the same degree as their S4 load. See Brassfetcher's recent testing, where the T6 perforates a 16-inch block of calibrated ballistic gelatin:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_PFP_28gr_T-6.wmv

The rest are much slower:

Even EA's slower (heavier) loads achieve roughly the same muzzle velocities as SS190, penetrate soft armor, and still exceed the FBI penetration minimum after doing so.

 

[Zerodefect]

And plain old FN SS195 is plenty good anyways.

The Ps90 rifle makes more sense than the pistol. It fills it's niche well and is reasonably effective. Very fast CQB weapon. But I wouldn't want to rely on 5.7 from a barrel less than 10" long.

EA strikes me as a guy reloading in his moms basement.

The 5.7 pistol is a fullsize gun. Not really the best choice for CCW. I'd look more towards a 1911 or compact Glock instead.

 

[meanmrmustard]

The 5 7 hollow point and ballistic tip do pass through class 2 body armor at defense ranges.

 

[wristtwister]

I carry a lot of full sized guns concealed, but a 5.7 is like trying to hide a Buick under your coat. The gun's designed as a duty weapon, not CCW... but I digress...

As for it's ability to "defeat body armor", most people don't wear body armor on their heads, so head shots (neck/head areas) and exposed parts are still fair game for any pistol at close range... and the simple fact that a bullet doesn't penetrate body armor doesn't mean it won't do damage to the "recipient" of that shot. There are also "soft areas" in body armor where the plates don't cover, and while I know everybody is invincible once they have on their vest, I read a lot of news reports of people being injured with their body armor on.

I would certainly rather have it on during a gunfight, but I would trust tactical skills more than simply throwing in everything and thinking my body armor would keep me safe no matter what. I'm pretty "old school", and my pistol is what I use to fight my way to a rifle... and I think I'd put my AR up against a 5.7 at close range anytime.

Dealing with firearms on a daily basis in a gun store, and dealing with the manufacture of firearms (friend's business), I see that the public has both a lot of misconceptions and misinformation about both shooting and shooting accessories, like body armor. One of our customers is a writer for "Gun Test" magazine, and we get pretty good information from them when we have a question regarding such matters.

As for carrying a 5.7, I wouldn't simply because there are better choices out there... both in ballistic performance and ergonomics of CCW. "Shooting through body armor" is hardly a requirement for a carry pistol... someone might spend all that money on getting better skills in shooting than buying the gun that will give them the "magic bullet".

WT

 

[Doxiedad]

Doesn't the USSS carry the Five Seven? Of course they're not too worried about concealment I guess.

 

[Ash]

Not all. One agent I personally know carries a SIG in .357 SIG.

 

[Get R Done Guns]

The five seven IS concealable. Especially because of its weight it's very easy to carry all day. It IS practical if its in your price range. Practice ammo is still expensive but as fun as it is to shoot it's well worth the cost.

 

[bigfatdave]

See Brassfetcher's recent testing, where the T6 perforates a 16-inch block of calibrated ballistic gelatin

wow ... almost approaching Tokarev there ... maybe they can catch up with 1940's Soviet technology soon!

Single shot was fired to the center of the block from a distance of 6 feet. Bullet impacted the block at 1510 ft/sec, penetrated 16.0" of ballistic gelatin, 10" of polyester bullet arresting box (roughly equivalent to 12" of ballistic gelatin), and 1.5" of loose-packed 'play sand'.

Once again, the little Soviet projectile sails through the target, barely noticing it as it passes by

I wonder how the magic, unstoppable 5.7 will fare?

The SS195 and SS197 cartridges were tested from both a 5.7x28mm rifle and handgun against bare gelatin and heavily-clothed gelatin (4 layers of 14.1 ounce denim fabric) at 10' distance.

Shot 1 - FN PS90 firing SS197 at bare gelatin. Shot impacted at 2054 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.6" (corrected) and was recovered at 26.9gr weight and 0.373" average diameter.
Shot 2 - FN PS90 firing SS197 at heavy clothing. Shot impacted at 2063 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.2" (corrected) and was recovered at 23.2gr weight and 0.352" average diameter. Please note that the maximum penetration depth was for a small bullet fragment - the major part of the bullet penetrated to 9.0" depth (corrected).
Shot 3 - FN 5.7 firing SS197 at heavy clothing. Shot impacted at 1932 ft/sec, penetrated to 10.6" (corrected) and was recovered at 25.8gr weight and 0.312" average diameter.
Shot 4 - FN PS90 firing SS195 at heavy clothing. Shot impacted at 2128 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.9". Bullet tumbled at 1.2" penetration and righted itself at ~ 5.6" depth. Bullet recovered in one piece at 27.8gr weight.
Shot 5 - FN 5.7 firing SS195 at heavy clothing. Shot impacted at 1999 ft/sec, penetrated to 9.3" depth with total core/jacket separation. Bullet tumbled at ~ 4.0" penetration and the core and jacket separated tracks at ~ 6.7" depth.

Maybe it does better after going through Kevlar?
Do you have to spray it with Teflon?

How about the lead-free?

Cartridge : 5.7x28mm FN SS195 lead free FMJ (Part # 10700013)

Firearm : FN PS90 rifle (16.1" barrel length) and FN 5.7 handgun (4.8" barrel length), as indicated

Block calibration : 9.1cm @ 591 ft/sec

Shot 1 - Fired by PS90. Impacted at 2157 ft/sec, penetrated nose-forward to 2.1" depth, at which point the bullet tumbled and partially spit the core out of the jacket. Final penetration depth was 7.6" and recovered weight was 28.1gr. Pictured above.

Shot 2 - Fired by 5.7 pistol. Impacted at 1969 ft/sec, penetrated nose-forward to 3.8" depth, at which point the bullet tumbled and spit the core section out of the jacket. The core material penetrated to 7.9" and the maximum penetration depth was 9.7". Bullet recovered at 27.6gr weight. Pictured below.

At this point, the test setup was altered. At the request of the test's sponsor, the potential liability of the tested bullets in the case of an overpenetration of the target in an interior room was assessed. This was accomplished by the cutting of the gelatin block into two 8"x6"x6" blocks, placing one piece at a linear distance of 4" from the face of the FBI 'interior wall' test fixture (two pieces of 0.5" wallboard, on a 2x4 frame), while placing the other block 4" back from the rearmost wallboard panel. This setup is illustrated by the attached photograph of the test setup.

Block calibration for this event was 10.5cm @ 590 ft/sec.

Shot 3 - Fired by PS90. Impacted at 2153 ft/sec, penetrated to 8.0", exited the back of the gelatin block and the jacket section was recovered after through-penetration of both interior wall panels. Bullet fragments did not penetrate the gelatin block. Core section was spit and was not recovered.

Shot 4 - Fired by 5.7 pistol. Impacted at 1983 ft/sec, bullet was not recovered, but by inspection of the wallboard directly behind the block, no part of the bullet penetrated the rearmost drywall panel.

...
...

Maybe there isn't any magic bullet?

 

[MachIVshooter]

EA's 5.7x28mm T6 load also achieves 2600 ft/s and it does not fragment to the same degree as their S4 load. See Brassfetcher's recent testing, where the T6 perforates a 16-inch block of calibrated ballistic gelatin:

Just one problem: It's not available. I searched it. Maybe if you call EA, but it doesn't show up in their currecnt product line.

Regardless, while penetration is a very important factor, it's not the only factor. The 5.7 is still a tiny little bullet, and test results show it either fragments completely or doesn't expand at all, neither of which would give me confidence in it's use for defense.

My 10mm loads will penetrate deeper, expand to nearly double their original diameter (almost 4 times that of the 5.7), and the bullets don't come apart. And in the event of a defensive shooting, the prosecutor won't have the argument that I spent big money on a super-duper armor-defeating round because I'm a bloodthirsty vigilante.

Go ahead and carry your Five-seveN, no skin off my nose. But please stop trying to convince everyone what a great defensive gun it is for it's ability to defeat the body armor that isn't being worn.