"what good is something that wont penetrate your walls if it wont reliably penetrate the perpetrator either?"
It goes through walls just fine. You're right; anything that won't will not stand a chance against a human being, which is why the whole "223 penetrates fewer walls than 9mm," while true, is really a rather moot point. You might not kill your neighbor three houses down, but your next door resident at the very least is still fair game.
"the only two things that matter in a self defensive round is placement and penetration and after these two things becomes the wound channel, be it from a tumbling effect or expansion because if you dont have the placement AND the penetration, you stop what youre shooting at"
Funny you should mention two things becoming a wound channel...singular. As I've stated repeatedly, in threads you have also been vociferously denouncing the 5.7 in yourself, higher velocity rounds like the little 22cal pill behave fundamentally different than low-velocity-low-deformation rounds like 32acp or 22LR (which has higher penetration stats than 9mm, if memory serves; turns out <30cal bullets go a fair ways through flesh when driven slow enough to not mash flat upon impact). Expecting the same 30cal diameter cylindrical wound performance from a round going, what, three times as fast, with half the weight, is silly.
"9" is inadequate penetration and those gel tests dont include clothing"
Please link to the ostensible test. Because that figure is about a third lower than the lowest outcome I've ever seen or heard of. 12" is the typical worst performance I see tested or claimed. 9" is what I've seen when the super lightweight frangibles are driven past their rated velocity from the 16" carbine, though (let's not go confusing PS90 performance with five-seven, now
). Even then, the shallow wound was basically a cone-shaped zone of shredded meat rent by the exploding projectile. I think I saw 10" on a test that involved a cold, dead, slab of cow muscle, possibly involving a rib bone, but I believe extending that the human body is silly (esp. when the whole FBI 14" thing is based in gel-testing itself)
This shot is from the "heavy & slow" 40gr SS197SR "sporting/practice round" considered to be the most low-powered among the offerings, btw. The better SS195LF service stuff is like 28gr or something.
While the comparisons with 22mag were surprising to me (more so in terms of how effective soft-point 22mag has become vs 22LR, despite still-low pressures/velocity to work with) this does not change the fact that the 5.7 from the five-seven typically meets FBI/etc requirements for ballistic effect.
Because...
"FN ain't stupid. You make the spec, they make the round and rifle."
Pretty much this. The whole point of the round was efficiency; ergo you get not one iota more than what the round was spec'ed for. I believe more can be attained with true locking-breech platforms, but that was not required to meet the NATO criteria back in the 90's. Not only was the PDW/pistol effort not just some silly thought experiment like the G11 (and to a certain extent, the MP7), NATO was actually poised to award the contract to FNH before HK stamped its feet & queered the deal (and Germany having considerable NATO pull, just happened to have their back). If you're going to toss of FBI requirements & such, at least be consistent and respect NATO's opinion on the matter prior to the contract beef.
"i dont care how the
illegal ammo you cant buy is going to penetrate body armor your assailants arent wearing"
Okay, you know how I know you don't know what you're talking about?
None of the 5.7 loads that have been produced are considered armor piercing, even if so-designated by FNH. I think there might be a true-blue steel/tungsten penetrator type out there, but that is not what the frequently-referenced SS190 bullet it; it is much more closely related to M855 in 223, only with aluminum instead of lead inside. FNH simply chooses not to sell these loads to civilian distributors, but this does not/has never stopped LEOs from making quick cash by scalping it to those who care for the fancy stuff. Most won't bother since it isn't needed. There are also one or two boutique companies making custom loads that are rather rough on the guns, but definitely exceed the already respectable OEM specs.
"so lets quit lying to ourselves about its capabilities as a defensive cartridge by applying properties that clearly do not apply to the situation"
After you. I've been as up front as I can be about this; I'm not claiming it's more powerful than 45acp (as some have in the past) or has undisprovable "psychological effects" on the target (as many claim about their pet round) or even nonsensical stuff like the bullet following bones or causing hydrodynamic shock effects far in excess of that suggested by the velocity (which is borderline for hydrostatic shock, at best)
"THR is a bit biased against the 5.7, often from posters with 0, ZERO, experience with it."
More like the same two/three guys than anything else, tell the truth.
"even a 25acp FMJ from a pocket pistol carries ~14" of penetration again while the 5.7x28 from the five seven pistol only gets 9... now lets see a show of hands from those who would carry a 25acp for primary self defense with its larger bullet and deeper penetration than 5.7x28?.. anyone? i sure as hell wont be"
Bits like this, for example, which might as well be written by TheTrace. Please explain, using physics, how a round with 40,000psi and 8(?) grains of powder pushing a 40gr bullet is outperformed by a smaller-capacity case pushing 35gr bullets at 25,000psi with ~2gr of powder? 25acp should be a bit more efficient in energy transfer over really short barrels since it's less overbore than 5.7 due to the tiny powder charge, but there's a very good reason Raven's don't have barrels longer than about 3".
I wouldn't recommend 5.7 as a defense round to anyone but a rabid fan, simply because people will tend to look at you funny for making an odd choice, and that really isn't what you want from a potential jury pool. It's about the most publicly-controversial handgun there is that isn't a chopped SMG or rifle or Desert Eagle. There's also some practical downsides to the weapon, namely the ammo is not ubiquitous or as easily reloadable (or rather, as foolproof in reloading), and uber-cheap FMJ from Tula does not exist. There is also the matter of the safety being a completely different layout from anything else, which will likely bother anyone trying to train for cross-platform commonality, even if the design itself is genius. The gun is big for what people typically want/need in a defense gun, but it also doesn't weigh much which somewhat counteracts that (but not by enough). All good reasons to disfavor the five-seven as a civilian side arm (none of these really apply for a force-wide military issue application) that don't require resorting to bogus assertions.
TCB
