FN Five-seven 5.7x28mm handgun

[barnbwt]

"Which is why I recommend the .357sig for midsize 4" pistol use instead."
Just sayin', for whatever reason in my neck of the woods, SIG is actually harder to find (both bullets and guns) than 5.7 stuff. 22TCM is kind of between the two, last time I bothered to look. All three are still definitely in the 'borderline obscure' area, though, along with 9mm Largo & 7.62x25

I agree that the 357SIG has far and away the best options in terms of actual guns, though. Due purely to the planned compatibility with 10mm-based designs (themselves derived from 38 supers). For that reason, I think the 22TCM ultimately will become a compelling option as a defense zipper-type round, if only Armscorp can get some better varmint-type bullets to work with. A 22cal mushroom soft-point is just sad; even at a highly-respectable 50% expansion, they only reach a 30cal diameter, while punching a neat, straight hole through the target and then some

TCB

 

[Pete D.]

5.7

where did that "the simple fact it has as much muzzle energy as a .32acp " come from? Just not so.
.32 ACP from 133 ft.lbs to 220 ft.lbs
5.7 X 28 from 243 ft.lbs to 282 ft.lbs
Quite pricey ammo is available for the 5.7 that will boost the energy levels from the pistol to 388ft.lbs (40 grain bullet at 2100 fps) to 420 ft.lbs ME (28 grain bullet at 2600 fps -from the pistol)

 

[justin22885]

where did that "the simple fact it has as much muzzle energy as a .32acp " come from? Just not so.
.32 ACP from 133 ft.lbs to 220 ft.lbs
5.7 X 28 from 243 ft.lbs to 282 ft.lbs
Quite pricey ammo is available for the 5.7 that will boost the energy levels from the pistol to 388ft.lbs (40 grain bullet at 2100 fps) to 420 ft.lbs ME (28 grain bullet at 2600 fps -from the pistol)

oh wow, less than 30ft/lbs energy difference, yeah, the 5.7 is sooooooooooo much better than the 32acp.. vs a 9mm which delivers around 500ft/lbs out of the same barrel length with +P ammo, able to achieve 5/8 even up to 3/4" expansion and 12=14 inches of penetration.. but no, im sure the 20 round mag vs a 17 is totally worth having a cartridge that better competes with a .32 for self defense

 

[Zerodefect]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_teY8vwwXvA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RTJZI-UXNA
( I love the "Wow, I didn't miss." quote in this one.

Obviously, it has it's niche.


#'s ain't everything. Go out and shoot stuff. Phone books, jello, wood, wall, steel, pork, neighbors cat, whatever.
.32acp? LOLz.

 

[barnbwt]

able to achieve 5/8 even up to 3/4" expansion and 12=14 inches of penetration..

Glad you finally decided to accurately describe the performance of 5.7 duty rounds, Justin

You gonna answer my question about 25acp?

TCB

 

[justin22885]

what question was that? and no, i didnt describe the "duty round" of 5.7x28, i described what you get out of a five-seven pistol... i know youve read a box of ammo or seen a gel test of the ammo in general, but you need to be aware this is out of a much longer barrel than the 5.7 offers, 9 inches of penetration is the best you get from it

 

[barnbwt]

If you won't even acknowledge the giant jpg I posted of a 14" gel test from a five-seven...I'm done. None so blind as those who will not see.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10170865&postcount=25

TCB

 

[usp9]

Zerodefect, I'd never before seen the bullet proof glass video. That surprised me that the 27gr. would penetrate. I've seen lots of other videos of folks shooting armor, vests, gel, pot roasts, etc., but that result with the 1 1/4" glass is Not even the .357 Sig punched through. I'm impressed. Love the gun even more. Hickok45 certainly likes it.

 

[justin22885]

now here's the shocker, windshields and steel plates are not going to be what breaks into your home at night or tries to mug you on the street, and humans arent made of steel and glass.. light weight, high velocity works on hard targets but the lack of momentum will be its bane in soft targets (such as people).. ergo, only 9 inches of penetration

 

[yugorpk]

now here's the shocker, windshields and steel plates are not going to be what breaks into your home at night or tries to mug you on the street, and humans arent made of steel and glass.. light weight, high velocity works on hard targets but the lack of momentum will be its bane in soft targets (such as people).. ergo, only 9 inches of penetration

I keep looking at the picture of 14 inches of penetration in gelatin and I really can't see where you get 9 inches out of that?

 

[Zerodefect]

now here's the shocker, windshields and steel plates are not going to be what breaks into your home at night or tries to mug you on the street, and humans arent made of steel and glass.. light weight, high velocity works on hard targets but the lack of momentum will be its bane in soft targets (such as people).. ergo, only 9 inches of penetration

So go shoot some people with it or something. Cause jello sure as heck ain't mugging people either.

 

[barnbwt]

Hmm, I seem to recall a good part of the entire point of both 357SIG and 9mm +P being exactly the ability to get through glass & still meet plain-jane 9mm terminal performance. Considering how many people rob folks inside a car or from the inside of a car, it's hardly implausible (unlike body armor, which, while gaining in commonality every day, is still ridiculously unlikely [and we likely stand no chance against someone careful enough to be so prepared])

"I keep looking at the picture of 14 inches of penetration in gelatin and I really can't see where you get 9 inches out of that?"
I think I found the video his must be referencing, and it used clear gelatin, which I seem to recall is calibrated a bit differently (and is generally denser. I think this was mentioned on the MAC 5.7/22mag video). The SS198LF used was the 28gr btw, vs the 40gr SS197SR; the latter seems to more consistently penetrate, but the former seems to create shorter but more violent wound channels (and punches armor much better, hence the LEO restriction on FN's part). It tumbled at two inches to create a ~1" wide wound path btw, in case anyone feels like bringing up the 32acp, 25acp, or 22mag/LR. This is why this particular test came in so low; other tests whose variables aligned such that tumbling did not occur (it is often not present with SS197) consistently show depth of over a foot.

I will readily admit that one thread that seems recurring in the various test videos is rather inconsistent/unpredictable performance on test media. My suspicion is that the round's performance capability is more sensitive to target density than we are used to from handgun rounds. It makes some sense, seeing as the bullets are rather designed to either tumble (requiring a certain minimum density for effect) or fragment (meaning best performance is attained below a certain maximum density for acceptable penetration). Most other rounds behave very predictably so long as they aren't hitting armor, which makes the calibration of tests to compare them easy; this may or may not still be the case with 5.7 and other small/fast rounds. How else do you get +/- six inches of penetration from the same cartridge depending on who is doing the testing? The ammo itself is incredibly consistent (borderline match grade, generally) so it suggests there is some variable not being accounted for.

Here's the same round, going through a pork shoulder bone and then another 10" or so of meat;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=231&v=yPdYwBo_eeI
Seems odd that the presence of a hard bone would have so little effect vs. bare gelatin, no? Or perhaps it's just this round was specifically designed to be somewhat barrier-blind (it was, which is why FNH treats it as quasi-armor piercing) which would explain why there was hardly any deformation despite breaking through a bone. It still made a much nastier wound than a similar-sized 22LR which would have likely gone just as far (and then some) absent the shoulder bone.

TCB

 

[Zerodefect]

I'm pretty sure that guys roast is a bit tougher than my chest. Going through 9" of solid meat, and a bone ain't nothing to sniff at. I got what, 1-2" of meat tops, on my chest.

 

[PabloJ]

I have seen the FN Five-seven 5.7x28mm handgun and wanted input regarding three categories, from a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the worst and 10 being the best. I realize this is subjective but please try your best Thank you.


1. Reliability.

2. Concealed Carry.

3. Stopping Power.

System has two things going for it. It has enhanced penetration capabilities with certain type of ammo. A lot of ammo can be carried in high cap magazines due to its light weight.
Those are the reasons it will be banned first. I hope that helps you with the struggle.

 

[Pete D.]

hmmmm

Justin: You are picking and choosing some details and ignoring others....much to the detriment of your argument.
There is that picture showing 14" inches of gel penetration when you insist on nine.
Presented with energy figures which disprove your comment that the 5.7 is no more powerful than the .32 ACP, you take the most powerful .32 round available (Buffalo Bore) and you compare it to the least powerful 5.7 round sold. You ignore the 5.7 ammo which produces nearly double the ME of the .32 Buffalo Bore +P .32.

oh wow, less than 30ft/lbs energy difference, yeah, the 5.7 is sooooooooooo much better than the 32acp.. vs a 9mm which delivers around 500ft/lbs out of the same barrel length with +P ammo, able to achieve 5/8 even up to 3/4" expansion and 12=14 inches of penetration.. but no, im sure the 20 round mag vs a 17 is totally worth having a cartridge that better competes with a .32 for self defense

Here you have introduced a detail which has, literally, nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The performance of the 9mm cartridge, in whatever form, the size of the magazine of a 9mm pistol, have nothing at all to do with whether or not the 5.7 is an adequate performer in a self defense role.

 

[barnbwt]

"1-2" of meat tops, on my chest."
Good point; I suppose the World's Fattest Man probably has less to fear from the 5.7 than heavier rounds, which may only result in a localized liposuction

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

"Here you have introduced a detail which has, literally, nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The performance of the 9mm cartridge, in whatever form, the size of the magazine of a 9mm pistol, have nothing at all to do with whether or not the 5.7 is an adequate performer in a self defense role."
Eh, not entirely irrelevant; I see his point that the FN's capacity isn't hugely better, nor is each round more effective. My counter point would be the gun is far lighter than a wondernine, and a third less recoil means that capacity is potentialy both more accurate and more accessible (recovery time in a <5 second engagement), negating any marginal terminal performance difference.

TCB

 

[Bama Drifter]

Not sure if I'm supposed to be commenting on pot roasts, bullet resistant glass, or steel plates... but to answer OP questions:
1. 9, reliable w/ factory ammo (which ain't cheap!)
2. 3, lightweight yet very bulky. Think air soft version of a G17
3. 0, I'd take a .380 over it any day of the week.

Of the reasons it hasn't caught on, first and foremost is cost. There's no cheap way to shoot it. It seems like an overpriced Kel tec PMR-30 (oooh yeah I said it!) So for what you'd spend on a FN5.7 you should instead take your money and get a PMR-30 and PF9 for concealed carry... heck w/ $ you save you could buy an LCP for each pocket and still have money leftover for a case of ammo!

 

[Pete D.]

Barnwt: The point is not whether the 5.7 is better than this cartridge or that cartridge; it is simply whether or not it is an adequate self defense round. The comparison to the 9mm cartridge and pistols with large magazines merely clouds the issue

seems like an overpriced Kel tec PMR-30 (oooh yeah I said it!) So for what you'd spend on a FN5.7 you should instead take your money and get a PMR-30 and PF9 for concealed carry... heck w/ $

There is no denying the expense of the pistol. The comparison to the PMR-30 (I want one.) was inevitable but inapt as the 5.7 is substantially more powerful (and reloadable). You have to fire the .22 magnum from a rifle to get the ballistics that the 5.7 gives us in a pistol.
Pete

 

[usp9]

It seems like an overpriced Kel tec PMR-30

It may seem that way to someone that isn't well informed. I own both the FN and the Kel Tec and believe me, there is no comparison. The FN is a far superior gun in every way except perhaps the fun factor. They are both exceptionally fun to shoot.

 

[yugorpk]

Lets do apples and apples. The most energetic 40 grain 22 magnum out of a 5 inch barrel comes out at 1477 fps. The most energetic 40 grain 5.7X28 out of a 5 inch pistol runs 1900 FPS.

The hottest available 5.7 ammo runs a 28 grain bullet at 2600 fps out of a 5 inch pistol. Inches of penetration isnt going to mean much when thats in one side and out the other.

I shot 200 rounds of 55 grain 5.7X28 subsonics today. Easy shooting round. Then I loaded 200 more. I'm still trying to figure out what people are talking about when they say its a difficult round to load. Its sure a lot easier to load than the 22 magnum.

 

[Mike OTDP]

To me, the big strength of the FN is the 20-round magazine. The biggest weakness is the gun...I'd love to see it chambered in a 1911-pattern pistol.

 

[Zerodefect]

Or a Glock in .22tcm.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

It tumbled at two inches to create a ~1" wide wound path btw...

It created a 1" temporary cavity. The amount of permanent disruption is no greater than what is physically contacted by the penetrating bullet.

 

[Zerodefect]

There was a pretty nasty 1" hole in the pork vid above.