CCW Holders: How much training have you had?
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BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Rather than debate the politics of requiring training, how about we keep the discussion on topic - what training do you have.
I've had my fair share, but the more I take, the more I realize my role as a perpetual student: Always looking to learn; always challenging my assumptions; and never allowing myself to feel content or that I'm finally well-trained enough.
Perhaps this thread would do better in S&T? I don't know.
I've had my fair share, but the more I take, the more I realize my role as a perpetual student: Always looking to learn; always challenging my assumptions; and never allowing myself to feel content or that I'm finally well-trained enough.
Perhaps this thread would do better in S&T? I don't know.
siglite
Member
Military training.
Informal (and very good) training from a certified instructor.
Matches.
Need more.
Informal (and very good) training from a certified instructor.
Matches.
Need more.
Tom Servo
Member
I was trained by my father. I did take a good class in Florida in 1990 (*), but that's the extent of my formal training.
I learned early in life to surround myself with knowledgeable people, so I've been around shooters most of that time
I've never wanted for mentoring.
I've no doubt places like Gunsite are very helpful; I just don't have the time at the moment. Nonetheless, I'm an instructor, I've shot IDPA, and though it was a %$%&*, I'm able to pass the Air Marshall qualifications ("1/4" tape?!?").
In fact, I've never come across an LEO qualification I couldn't pass.
I don't think there's such a thing as too much training, and the responsibility falls to anyone who handles firearms in any capacity, but I won't have the government force it on people.
(*) Anyone remember who was doing training in Duval county back then? I can't recall their names; it was a husband and wife, north side of Jacksonville.
I learned early in life to surround myself with knowledgeable people, so I've been around shooters most of that time
I've never wanted for mentoring.I've no doubt places like Gunsite are very helpful; I just don't have the time at the moment. Nonetheless, I'm an instructor, I've shot IDPA, and though it was a %$%&*, I'm able to pass the Air Marshall qualifications ("1/4" tape?!?").
In fact, I've never come across an LEO qualification I couldn't pass.
I don't think there's such a thing as too much training, and the responsibility falls to anyone who handles firearms in any capacity, but I won't have the government force it on people.
(*) Anyone remember who was doing training in Duval county back then? I can't recall their names; it was a husband and wife, north side of Jacksonville.
Started with the NRA Personal Protect Course in OR, then moved to TX and did the KRTraining Basic and Beyond the Basic Pistol Course and then Karl's Advanced Tactical 1-6, NRA Pistol Instructor/Personal Protection course, an AR and Defensive Long Arm Course, 2 OPS courses, 2 from Steve Moses (shotgun, handgun) as SDSI, 4 Insights, LFI-1 and Stressfire, 1 Rangemaster, a Skeet course, did the NTI 3 times, IDPA seriously (an IPSC and steel if bored on a weekend). The TX CHL course several times for renewal.
I like to do this, obviously - but I also think that if you carry you need some training in basic firearms usage, tactics and some serious FOF for a reality test.
It would also strengthen the case if you argued for work carry (like I'm involved in). Several times, I've been told that folks would trust me to carry at work but not someone who is just a gun rag reading cowboy (quote from a person sympatico to carry).
I like to do this, obviously - but I also think that if you carry you need some training in basic firearms usage, tactics and some serious FOF for a reality test.
It would also strengthen the case if you argued for work carry (like I'm involved in). Several times, I've been told that folks would trust me to carry at work but not someone who is just a gun rag reading cowboy (quote from a person sympatico to carry).
As you go about your daily routine, take some time and start measuring distances, looking for potential cover, avenues of escape, etc. When you do that, you'll find that 7 yards is absolutely nothing. You are talking about a bonus room in a medium sized house, conference rooms, short hallways, or stairwells. At my office building, there are corridors dozens of yards long, with little cover so they become beautiful bullet funnels for someone shooting. Step outside, and you get into a whole new world of potential danger should someone decide to open up.
If you want to run away from someone who's shooting at you (or is armed with a blade or bludgeon and is pumped) 8 yards away from you, go for it. It's your funeral . . . literally.
Back on topic, I haven't done a recent count but I've taken multiple pistol, carbine and shotgun courses, along with a combination hand to hand/pistol course. I've racked up hundreds of hours of training, and as Ken said, I've realized that I'm a perpetual student. Everytime I take a class (even one I've taken before), I learn something knew.
Texas is on a par with the first post, but many states require no training at, just apply pass a background check and you are licensed.I don't have a problem with that as I believe everyone has the god given right to self defense.I qualified with all three weaons available to me in the Air Force, although qualify is a misnomer on the 45 Thompson and the 45 pistol.Our squadron armory was in short supply of M2 carbines so I was assigned the Thompson and accompanied 1911 side arm.1st sergeant handed me both weapons and two boxes of ammo,asked if I knew where the range was, and told me to go learn how to shoot them.BTW this was at Osan AB, Korea in 1959.My ability with the 1911 was nil, as the only targerts were set at 1000" and were those of a size suitable for qualifying with the carbine.I fired about 12 rds and did manage to raise some dust near the target but never actually put anything on paper.Never had to worry about that WWII relic jamming as it was looser than crazy Shirley, my HS sweetheart, in fact she was everyones HS sweetheart.I fired the Thompson in short bursts horizontally, and was pretty accurate with it, putting about 1/3 of my shots into the target.since I was alone I scored myself a sharpshooter, the same score I received in basic training with the m2 carbine.Ah the good old days of ten cent beers , $1.25 fifths and $2 women.
I fired the Thompson in short bursts horizontally, and was pretty accurate with it, putting about 1/3 of my shots into the target.since I was alone I scored myself a sharpshooter, the same score I received in basic training with the m2 carbine.Ah the good old days of ten cent beers , $1.25 fifths and $2 women.Who are we to decide whether or not a woman who appears incompetent in the few minutes or hours of an intro class is worthy to protect her own life with a gun that in most cases only needs to be shown and not fired? Who are we to decide that she should not be allowed to get her permit and pursue further instruction on her own? Who are we to keep someone who can't afford Frontsight (or LFI or Gunsite or whichever one you pick) from getting a permit to protect themselves?
Lastly to all those talking about MANDATORY training, that is all well and good when a reasonable person makes the decision as to what is a "reasonable amount of training", but what happens when a gun banner gets to make that decision? Training is a good and important thing to do, but should not EVER be mandatory.
I think the basic CCW training is just that, "basic". It's up to the individual to decide whether he/she needs more.
One of the best courses for training, and very cheap, is the IDPA competitions, 12.00 for a non-member, and a free Saturday afternoon I get to practice a lot of stuff I never knew about.
The Advanced CCW course I attended was probably the best. The guy teaching it (police trainer), put all the training on night time senarios. Now that was hard.
One of the best courses for training, and very cheap, is the IDPA competitions, 12.00 for a non-member, and a free Saturday afternoon I get to practice a lot of stuff I never knew about.
The Advanced CCW course I attended was probably the best. The guy teaching it (police trainer), put all the training on night time senarios. Now that was hard.
Old Dog said:
You have a point, I was making less of a distinction between merely range time and formal training, and there is a big gap inbetween.
So above average would mean above the average number of classes/hour of training with an instructor of those with CHLs/CPLs/CWP permits.
So to clarify, I would still think most contributors to this board do shoot as a whole more than 'average' between all permit holders. It might just be a small percentage of the membership that do talk about how much they shoot that is giving me this feeling, but I think as much as people complain about these things, they're still out shooting. It just means instead of buying 5000 round cases of ammo they buy 500 round cases at a time.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
Not exactly. The opening post was:
That contained no political statements. Others delved into that with the discussion, and the OP responded to those statements.
I'd rather not see this go into, "I don't need the state's permission/blessing to exercise my right. How dare they/How dare you require me to . . . .
!!!!" Which is where this one's slipping. Yeah. We know. We've heard it all before. The politics portion of Legal & Political is gone because of exactly these types of political exchanges. They brought out the worst of the board.OK?
So please either resist the temptation to rant about tyranny and compulsory training, or watch the thread get locked in short order.
pbearperry
Member
Proper training for people who carry firearms is important.However,I feel that you have a much greater risk of being killed by a driver of a car who is in a hurry,talking on the phone and reading something.
I started this thread because I was curious about the training Highroaders have if they carry regularly, NOT as a political thread advocating state mandated anything. I was curious because I wonder what happens to those people like the woman in my last ccw class I wrote about closing her eyes as she fired. Those people I really believe are better off with pepper spray or other non-lethal defenses.
I wrote before and I'll write it again, carrying a firearm is heavy responsibility (especially if you carry a full size 1911 like your humble scribe. LOL!) that needs to be taken seriously. IMHO that includes regular training with places like Gunsite, Frontsight, etc, and lots of dry fire practice.
I wrote before and I'll write it again, carrying a firearm is heavy responsibility (especially if you carry a full size 1911 like your humble scribe. LOL!) that needs to be taken seriously. IMHO that includes regular training with places like Gunsite, Frontsight, etc, and lots of dry fire practice.
pgeleven
Member
i took my CC-Dub course back in 2003 up here in Michigan. i sat in class for 8 hours with a pretty decent instructor. a lawyer even came in to answer all kinds of questions (some of them were very stupid) so it clarified a lot of the laws and what our rights were. then we took 2 multiple choice tests and went outside to shoot 50 rounds at a target that was a few meters away with a bowling pin tied up underneath it. all in all cost me about $230 (including application) for everything and its good for 5 years. this year i need to renew which consists of me going back to a concealed class for half the session.
was it worth it? i would say yes. i think all classes should have a state bar or lawyer present like we did to explain the legal ramifications that can occur of having to use your weapon and ways that will help defend your case in court should you have to justify you were in the right (which he DID state that even if you were 100% in the right and in fear of your life that you can expext to cough up $7,000 to $9,000 in court convincing a judge). i realize that no amount of money can replace you or your families life but there were some people in the class who asked things like if it was ok to listen to a police scanner and go after evil-doers robbing liquor stores and robbing banks. you can see where im going with this. happily though our governor gave us several new laws in the past few years that will help defend ourselvs (i.e. no longer a duty to flee, if found 100% in self defense the victims family can't file civil suit, etc)
was it worth it? i would say yes. i think all classes should have a state bar or lawyer present like we did to explain the legal ramifications that can occur of having to use your weapon and ways that will help defend your case in court should you have to justify you were in the right (which he DID state that even if you were 100% in the right and in fear of your life that you can expext to cough up $7,000 to $9,000 in court convincing a judge). i realize that no amount of money can replace you or your families life but there were some people in the class who asked things like if it was ok to listen to a police scanner and go after evil-doers robbing liquor stores and robbing banks. you can see where im going with this. happily though our governor gave us several new laws in the past few years that will help defend ourselvs (i.e. no longer a duty to flee, if found 100% in self defense the victims family can't file civil suit, etc)
JohnBT
Member
"If you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, how much training have you had?"
More than is required to bring a child into this world and raise it.
More than is required to get a driver's license.
More than is required to buy a keg of beer.
More than is required to bring a child into this world and raise it.
More than is required to get a driver's license.
More than is required to buy a keg of beer.
Templar223
Member
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I've had a fair bit of training, from LFI to a handful of other handgun courses. For the last ten years, I've taught the NRA PP course on weekends to scores of people each year. The last two or three years, we've also taught an 'intermediate' course which is semi-analogous to the new NRA PP "Outside the Home" course.
I don't feel that anyone should NEED training. So long as you have some common sense and a general understanding of when deadly force is justified you should be okay. If you don't have either of the above, you probably shouldn't be carrying. And if you screw up too badly, either Murphy or society will take it from there for ya.
Having said that, I recommend training. Any practical training is better than no training, but if you invest a few dollars and take a weekend course, you'll be much better equipped to make decisions regarding carry. And, you'll help court-proof yourself at the same time.
John
I don't feel that anyone should NEED training. So long as you have some common sense and a general understanding of when deadly force is justified you should be okay. If you don't have either of the above, you probably shouldn't be carrying. And if you screw up too badly, either Murphy or society will take it from there for ya.
Having said that, I recommend training. Any practical training is better than no training, but if you invest a few dollars and take a weekend course, you'll be much better equipped to make decisions regarding carry. And, you'll help court-proof yourself at the same time.
John
Let me throw in something I've been thinking about and may have said before in another context.
It seems to me that gun folk answers about equipment and training cluster around two modal incidents.
1. The single mugger - you are challenged by one (maybe two) property crime driven BGs. In most of these cases, deploying a firearm leads to no shots fired and deterrence. If shots are fired, the number of shots are low and even peripheral hits shoo the BGs away or to surrender.
2. The high intensity SHTF - the Tacoma Mall, Columbine, the Tyler TX courthouse. Of course, a reasonable first move is to flee in terror unless directly confronted. But then there are folks who move positively to intervene when they could have fled. At the Tacoma Mall and Tyler, unfortunately, the civilian came to a bad end due to an inadequate tactical world view. In the first, the guy challenged when he should have shot and got shot down. In the second, the guy hit the vested BG and approached in an unsound manner and was killed. One could reasonably argue that those folks could have benefited from training to have the proper mind set and world view.
Most of the non-training needed (not legally but practically) folk seem to view #1 as most likely and/or feel that they could handle #2. I disagree with the latter as good policy. I think that the latter scenario (if you don't flee - best choice if you can, or if you are stuck in it) argues for some realistic training.
It seems to me that gun folk answers about equipment and training cluster around two modal incidents.
1. The single mugger - you are challenged by one (maybe two) property crime driven BGs. In most of these cases, deploying a firearm leads to no shots fired and deterrence. If shots are fired, the number of shots are low and even peripheral hits shoo the BGs away or to surrender.
2. The high intensity SHTF - the Tacoma Mall, Columbine, the Tyler TX courthouse. Of course, a reasonable first move is to flee in terror unless directly confronted. But then there are folks who move positively to intervene when they could have fled. At the Tacoma Mall and Tyler, unfortunately, the civilian came to a bad end due to an inadequate tactical world view. In the first, the guy challenged when he should have shot and got shot down. In the second, the guy hit the vested BG and approached in an unsound manner and was killed. One could reasonably argue that those folks could have benefited from training to have the proper mind set and world view.
Most of the non-training needed (not legally but practically) folk seem to view #1 as most likely and/or feel that they could handle #2. I disagree with the latter as good policy. I think that the latter scenario (if you don't flee - best choice if you can, or if you are stuck in it) argues for some realistic training.
I've got about 200 hours of formal training, including:
- LFI-1 and 2
- SigArms Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry
- S&W Defensive Carbine
- Cumberland Tactics Tactical Handgun 101
I'm certified by the NRA to teach Home Firearms Safety, Basic Pistol, and Personal Protection in the Home.
I'm certified by the NRA and IDPA as a Range Safety Officer.
- LFI-1 and 2
- SigArms Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry
- S&W Defensive Carbine
- Cumberland Tactics Tactical Handgun 101
I'm certified by the NRA to teach Home Firearms Safety, Basic Pistol, and Personal Protection in the Home.
I'm certified by the NRA and IDPA as a Range Safety Officer.
Cosmoline
Member
I don't have much formal training. I have informal tactical training from more experienced shooters as well as from books and videos. This state is blessed with some amazingly good shooters, and I try to pick brains when I can. I've also found it useful to have shot some critters, since it opened my eyes as to what I actually can and cannot hit in a real three dimensional world.
The conclusions I've drawn have been pretty simple. A firearm in the hand beats one on the belt--or at home. A long gun is easier to use than a short gun. Minimize the steps between me and my iron. I can't see well enough to shoot in the dark without light.
I'd love to get to Thunder Ranch one of these decades to hone things, but the woods around here are good practice in the mean time.
The conclusions I've drawn have been pretty simple. A firearm in the hand beats one on the belt--or at home. A long gun is easier to use than a short gun. Minimize the steps between me and my iron. I can't see well enough to shoot in the dark without light.
I'd love to get to Thunder Ranch one of these decades to hone things, but the woods around here are good practice in the mean time.
coloradokevin
Member
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I have been shooting since childhood, and was taught proper gun-handling procedures by relatives while growing up.
I am also a full-time police officer, and have had more advanced training offered through my department (in addition to just shooting, we do force-on-force training, shoot/don't shoot scenarios, etc.... often with those nasty simunition rounds).
My wife completed a CCW class that my department used to offer to spouses of officers, and her class was much better than the typical NRA "Don't shoot your foot off" offering. It's a shame that they ended that program, but I can see where the city didn't have the time or money for it!
I am also a full-time police officer, and have had more advanced training offered through my department (in addition to just shooting, we do force-on-force training, shoot/don't shoot scenarios, etc.... often with those nasty simunition rounds).
My wife completed a CCW class that my department used to offer to spouses of officers, and her class was much better than the typical NRA "Don't shoot your foot off" offering. It's a shame that they ended that program, but I can see where the city didn't have the time or money for it!
Sato Ord
Member
One last closing shot about this issue. This is personal opinion concerning training and not intended as any kind of political statement.
I feel that it is my responsibility to keep myself trained to the highest degree possible concerning firearms. The constitution grants me the right to keep and bear arms, but that right, in my opinion, comes with the high price of ensuring that I am well trained and ready to use that firearm in a responsible manner.
It's on me if I miss the bad guy at less than fifteen feet and hit the little old lady down the street, and saying I had no choice but to shoot isn't an excuse. If I can't defend myself with a reasonable degree of safety for any bystanders I don't feel I have the right to use a firearm in the situation.
It's not just range time, but time spent practicing drawing the weapon with a full magazine and getting a sight picture. Time spent learning to move and fire. Time spent just learning to be aware of your surroundings so that you know where to move to if the need arises. Time spent running through as many different defense scenarios as you and your practice partners can think of.
Does all of this take time from the rest of my life? Yes.
Do I think I'll ever need this training? Well, I hope not, but I'd rather have it and not need it...
Besides, it's fun and it helps to keep me in shape. I also study unarmed martial arts, but in this world it is more likely that, if I need to defend my life, I will need to use a firearm, so I train extensively with mine.
I feel that it is my responsibility to keep myself trained to the highest degree possible concerning firearms. The constitution grants me the right to keep and bear arms, but that right, in my opinion, comes with the high price of ensuring that I am well trained and ready to use that firearm in a responsible manner.
It's on me if I miss the bad guy at less than fifteen feet and hit the little old lady down the street, and saying I had no choice but to shoot isn't an excuse. If I can't defend myself with a reasonable degree of safety for any bystanders I don't feel I have the right to use a firearm in the situation.
It's not just range time, but time spent practicing drawing the weapon with a full magazine and getting a sight picture. Time spent learning to move and fire. Time spent just learning to be aware of your surroundings so that you know where to move to if the need arises. Time spent running through as many different defense scenarios as you and your practice partners can think of.
Does all of this take time from the rest of my life? Yes.
Do I think I'll ever need this training? Well, I hope not, but I'd rather have it and not need it...
Besides, it's fun and it helps to keep me in shape. I also study unarmed martial arts, but in this world it is more likely that, if I need to defend my life, I will need to use a firearm, so I train extensively with mine.
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