Colleges: Don't use real weapons, throw your laptop at 'em

[Officers'Wife]

Wow! Advocating violence against the poor misunderstood shooter? Perhaps they should make it a policy to bring in a Soc prof to lecture and put the shooter to sleep from boredom. Or a Physics prof to discuss string theory so he will commit suicide.

My late uncle used to speak at great length at what he called 'educated idiots.' These people are overqualified for the title.

Selena

 

[JImbothefiveth]

The whole "charge the shooter" thing actually worked when that guy shot up the unitarian church a little while back.

I think college students should be allowed to carry some sort of metal tube. They can use explosives to propel some sort of lead projectile down the tube, and put grooves in the tube to stabalize it. We'll put the explosives and projectile in a brass container, with a smaller explosive to detonate the main explosive at the bottom, and call it a "primer". The primer will be detonated by some sort of needle, which will be given the force required by a falling hammer. The hammer will be activated by some sort of bar that you pull with your finger. We can call it a "1911". You get a classroom full of these, homicidal maniacs won't stand a chance.

 

[Mr White]

Not everyone wants to or should carry a gun. Providing ideas on alternative methods of defense fo those people is a good thing. As for those who would carry a real weapon, the way I see it...

The only thing stopping a law-abiding CCW holder from carrying on campus is a law or a policy.
If a law or policy puts my life at risk, there's more than a slight chance that I won't obey it.
Last time I checked, backpacks or persons are not searched when entering a college building.
There are no metal detectors at the entrances of most college buildings.
The only time a CCW should ever be discovered is when it is used.
I'm not advocating that anyone break the law, but I'll take alive and in a world of **** over dead anytime.

'nuff said.

 

[damien]

When the SHTF, I think I would rather "look at my environment through the lens " of a peep sight. An open sight would be a second choice. No sight at all is not acceptable.

 

[KBintheSLC]

Doesn't the saying go something like "don't bring a laptop to a gunfight"???

This article made me lose several IQ points just by reading it.

Last time I checked, backpacks or persons are not searched when entering a college building.
There are no metal detectors at the entrances of most college buildings.

Mr White,
I agree completely with your comments... The above quote is exactly the reason why "no guns" policies fail to stop psycho killers. For some strange reason, they are not diverted by a piece of paper that says "no guns"... funny how that works.

 

[foghornl]

The only "portable" computer I can think of that would reliably stop a shooter would be one of those mid-80's vintage Compaq brand 'Lug-able' computers...weighed about 35 Lbs...and if dropped on shooter from 3 floors up.....

 

[Rugerlvr]

This staggering article leads to only one logical question:

Why should anyone have to improvise a weapon in these situations?

 

[MakAttak]

The only "portable" computer I can think of that would reliably stop a shooter would be one of those mid-80's vintage Compaq brand "Lug-able' computers...weighed about 35 Lbs...and if dropped on shooter from 3 floors up.....

Yeah, using today's computers as a weapon would continue to get less and less effective.

Has anyone else picked up the new iBook? A frisbee would do more damage!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

When you study disasters, you often are struck by the fact that some people plan to have disasters. They do stupid things like plan to defend themselves against a gun-wielding criminal with laptops.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Folks, a wise reminder from page two:

There's a place and time for sarcasm and satire, but knocking this program for the sole purpose of satisfying oneself with a good sneer, is not very productive. Let's analyze the efforts of the administrators and authors of the program realistically, shall we?

230RN said that.

 

[230RN]

Thank you, Larry Ashcraft.

Quote:
Lastly ... at Virginia Tech, 6 of the people in the classrooms that were shot up were CCW holders ... two were ex or current military. All had their weapons at home or in their cars. How different that might have been if they had been allowed to exercise their god given right of self defense?

Can that be confirmed?

Yes, I'm still waiting.

Laptop vs 9mm. My money is on the 9mm.

Laptop vs. beer bottle. My money is on the laptop. Get the point?

And that "charge the shooter" thing apparently worked. Sorta. FLight 61, was it?

And you only need one shooter torn apart to discourage others. Subconscious muttering: "Wul, mebbe it ain't gona be so easy after all. Where's the nearest Mall? Or mebbe a church?"

 

[yokel]

Is this predicated on the notion that when confronted with a swarm of their prey, many predators become confused and are less successful in their attacks?

 

[357WheelGun]

And that "charge the shooter" thing apparently worked. Sorta. FLight 61, was it?

Flight 93. Charging the shooter is viable only in very limited circumstances. Notably, circumstances where it's essentially certain that you will not survive regardless of your actions.

I'm sorry, but suggesting that unarmed people mob a psychopathic person with a firearm is a recipe for a lot of unarmed dead people. It's a desperate bid at best.

I am all for people making some efforts to improve safety, but I disagree with any plan that essentially turns students into bullet-traps.

 

[COMPNOR]

I'm sorry, but suggesting that unarmed people

Unarmed? Aren't people around here always saying how dangerous a pen can be, so lets ban them next? How people can be killed with anything, that a gun is no more dangerous, its just an object? Seems like your average college kid is quite well armed. Of course, whether or not he knows how to use what he has....well that applies to firearms too. That gun doesn't do you any bit of good if you can't shoot straight with it.

Aren't people around extolling the virtues of how carrying is a confidence builder? Shouldn't we give people the tools to feel confident no matter what? Or is it puff out your chest and carry a gun or cower and die as a sheep? Are those really the only two options you're giving people?

Charging as a tactic is limited. Of course remembering some of the classrooms I've been in, taking the fight to the bad guy isn't going to be the worst thing to do. I personally would rather go down attempting to do something and not be shot in the back cowering in the corner. So wouldn't knowing when to charge and when to not be important to know? Wouldn't it be one more tool in the toolbox of self defense?


So since you don't recommend charging, what would you suggest? Honest question. No guns now, this isn't about needing to allow the right to carry in school. Carrying is a personal choice.

 

[ArizonaTRex]

KANSAS CITY, Mo. (AP) _ Hundreds of colleges across the nation have purchased a training program that teaches professors and students not to take campus threats lying down but to fight back with any "improvised weapon," from a backpack to a laptop computer.
(So Dell® and Gateway® should make Kevlar lined Laptops with Razor lined edges ala “Oddjob- [James Bond movie villian]” style and all also backpacks be made of Kevlar with perhaps telescoping rods that could be extended like a spear maybe)

The program — which includes a video showing a gunman opening fire in a packed classroom — urges them to be ready to respond to a shooter by taking advantage of the inherent strength in numbers.
(So all the students should rush the gunman and take as many bullets as possible before collapsing so as to provide the last surviving students the pleasure of leaping over the bodies and stomping the Badguy.)

It reflects a new response at colleges and universities where grisly memories of the campus shootings at Virginia Tech and Northern Illinois University are still fresh. (I will not comment on fresh)

"Look at your environment through the lens of survival," said Domenick Brouillette, who administered the course at Metropolitan Community College, which serves more than 20,000 students. "Survivors prepare themselves both mentally and emotionally to do what it takes. It might involve life-threatening risk. You may do something you never thought you were capable of doing."
(Such as wishing “BOY I WISH I HAD A GUN TO SHOOT BACK WITH!”)

Nearly 300 professors at Metropolitan Community College were shown the video as part of a training exercise before the first day of classes on this downtown campus. The training, produced by the Center for Personal Protection and Safety, a for-profit firm based in Spokane, Wash., is also available for the school's students.
(So buy our tape on “HOW TO TURN A LAPTOP INTO A DEADLY WEAPON-make sure you have the manufactures optional damage insurance” for only 3 easy payments of….. )

The training drills teachers and students in a "survival mindset," said Randy Spivey, a former U.S. Department of Defense hostage negotiator who is executive director of the center. The center's roster includes retired FBI agents and others with federal law enforcement experience.

"There are two extremes. On the one hand is paranoia, and on the other is oblivion," he said. "We're just trying to get people to keep this on their radar."
(And that I totally agree with)
The training discourages cowering in a corner or huddling together in fear, Brouillette emphasized at the Kansas City session.

(NOW that’s a good Idea, don’t huddle or cower when under fire-Run like HELL is better, of course pulling your Constitutionally guaranteed firearm and SHOOTING back might ALSO be considered a “GOOD IDEA”.)

Instead, Metropolitan Community College faculty members were taught to be aware of their surroundings and to think of common classroom objects — such as laptops and backpacks — as "improvised weapons."
(But DO NOT bring a real weapon)

The program has been bought by nearly 500 colleges, which tailor the company's safety messages — laid out in instructional videos and other training guides — to craft localized violence prevention programs. Spivey expects that by year's end that number will have grown to about 1,000 schools.

Schools may provide the training to students as well as staff, as at Metropolitan, or limit it to instructors or security personnel.
(A school in Texas has a really good idea about what to do..)

Campus safety experts interviewed by The Associated Press said they are not aware of any similar survival training courses marketed specifically to college campuses.

"It's a dark subject," Brouillette said. "But we can't say 'It's never going to happen again.' It's 'When is it going to happen?' And we have to be prepared to survive that."

The sort of aggressive survival response cited by Brouillette troubles school violence researcher Loren Coleman, a retired University of Southern Maine professor.
(Sheep, do not attack the wolves, ……please understand, that is not how its done…..):banghead:

Showing students violent images of school shootings could trigger post-traumatic stress or other reactions that resident advisers, graduate assistants and similarly untrained workers would be unequipped to handle, Coleman said.
(Remember Sheep, do not attack the wolves, ……understand, that is not how its done…..everything is, OK, bad things only happen to bad People, so only THINK Good Thoughts)


And the techniques shown in instructional videos such as "Shots Fired" could provide inspiration for troubled students considering their own acts of violence, Coleman suggested.
(Of course knowing the Staff and most other Students are armed may ALSO cause them to RE-Think those thoughts)

"You more or less are giving them a blueprint for how to avoid law enforcement," he said.
(Right- Do not try to Murder People and you will generally avoid Law Enforcement)

At the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, officials are looking for ways to incorporate the training as part of the school's "Alert Carolina" program. Campus police chief Jeff McCracken said the school may offer hands-on training to students and faculty, or simply post a link on the university Web site.

(How about a Campus Gun Club? Training Practices on every 1st and 3rd Saturday at the Colleges Range?)

Despite the relative rarity of deadly violence on campus, colleges can no longer assume that they are immune from such problems, McCracken said.
(Were they ever immune?)

"I do think it's important that we talk to our folks and give them some guidance on how to protect themselves and others," he said. "It's not something that 10 years ago we thought we'd be talking about. But unfortunately, it's something we need to do now."
(10 years ago violence was never a problem- no one ever got mugged, raped or murdered while they were in College. Mass murderers never targeted college girls [Ted Bundy murders from 1961 to ‘74] and a Campus had NEVER had a shooting by a student [Charles Whitman-shooting 45 people Aug 1966] so lets please talk about it now)

Todd Bowdish, a Metropolitan Community College life sciences professor who participated in the recent training session, agreed that today's classroom climate requires extreme caution.

"It's a really basic thing," Bowdish said. "We have drills for fires and tornadoes. This is just another tool for the toolbox."
(WOW- guns are considered “tools too”, how about letting responsible adults chose whether they would prefer to defend themselves with a Laptop or a legally carried Firearm!)
_______
And there is my rant on it. I do believe this video is a good idea, but it is only the first step. I wonder how many people after viewing it, and actually THINKING about how to implement these suggestions, will come to the conclusion that maybe allowing firearms on campus could be a good thing?

 

[myrockfight]

Charging as a tactic is limited. Of course remembering some of the classrooms I've been in, taking the fight to the bad guy isn't going to be the worst thing to do. I personally would rather go down attempting to do something and not be shot in the back cowering in the corner. So wouldn't knowing when to charge and when to not be important to know? Wouldn't it be one more tool in the toolbox of self defense?

I hope you guys don't think I disagree with making due with what you have. I would absolutely advocate doing so. Something I always noticed handy, heavy, and goofy was the chairs we always sit in. I know you have to be somewhat stronger to throw one a good distance. But I always thought that would be what I did, if I didn't have anything else.


My original post was to point out the views of those making decisions against the ability to lawfully carry on campus. They recognize the need for weapons, yet they deny the very tools made for that specific purpose.

I don't think it is a bad idea to show students. I just think they should go all the way and let people carry since they are recognizing the general need.

 

[Oana]

Thinking it over a little more, I think I see one of the problems here. I don't know how the video handles it all, but I think we're mixing issues when we talk about it being "dangerous to rush the shooter".

We've actually got TWO scenarios with a campus shooter, not one. Remember that. The first scenario is the one the first victims find themselves in. There's been NO warning - they're the first targets, and they're at the most disadvantage. Obviously, telling everyone in a packed room to up and "rush the shooter" isn't necessarily the best advice. (Honestly, I don't know - I'm not anything near an expert!) Chairs are packed in together, and even *if* every single student immediately jumped up and attacked, it's a given that many someones are going to be injured, perhaps fatally. They may get the guy down, but the trick here is getting a bunch of people to rush him, knowing that they run a huge risk of getting killed. In your garden variety college class, I'm not banking on that. I won't say it isn't a decent option, especially if there's no other exit. OTOH, if you're at the far end of a large room, you'd probably be shot before making it to the shooter. Ducking behind your copy of Shakespeare's Complete Works might be a smart idea, at least until something else presents itself.

If there are secondary exits, the safest course of action would probably be to run, escape, get out - as quickly as possible. Knowing, of course, that he's still shooting people. If you're by the door and can respond immediately to the threat, then an attack could be fruitful. Who knows. I have no deep desire to find out first-hand.

Any way you slice it, this first group is in deep, deep trouble, especially without a gun. *This* group needs a gun The. Most.

The second scenario is what everybody else finds themselves in, if they've heard any inkling of what just happened to the first group. These people - the ones in adjoining rooms, hallways, etc. - are out of the direct line of fire and have a chance to get away or make a split-second defense/offense/Nike defense plan. *This*, I think, is an easier spot for a plan of attack. If you can't get out of the area, plan to meet the shooter head-on. You (hopefully) have the benefit of surprise and a chance to grab a makeshift weapon. You've still got to be brave enough to face the risks, but if there's nothing to lose, you're in a better spot.

All that to say that, yeah, we need guns in schools...badly.

 

[yokel]

Do the schools regularly train, drill, and exercise this "program"?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Written for the sheep by the herdsman. How pathetic.

A laptop is a piss-poor substitute for a handgun.

Yes, and a handgun is a piss-poor substitute for a rifle.

Sadly, neither firearm is legal on most campuses across the country.

So being critical of a program that seeks to provide legally available options is a bit silly. If you want to complain, complain to lawmakers in the respective states, not to those who are attempting to help students with options most would never bother to consider. Remember, there is no way they can host a program where they teach everyone to act illegally. There is no way that the program is going to be used by universities if the program is instructing people to break the law.

 

[Lamb of Gun]

I would seem to me that telling the students to engage in a physical confrontation with a psychotic killer using things like laptops and backpacks would be far more dangerous than an armed security guard. Which makes me wonder what really makes the world turn: cost analyzation on EVERYTHING or the satisfaction of a peaceful and safe society.

I feel like mentioning armed students and armed teachers is somewhat pointless since it seems like the last thing that will happen. Besides we all know about the old west style shootouts that will occur if we let people carry around guns all "willy-nilly".

My point summed up is:

If there are routes they can take that:

A.) Can and WILL protect these people from, literally, small-scale genocide

B.) Satisfy everyone, even alot of anti-gun, liberals.

then why are they teaching this Jason Bourne garbage to students that will be so gripped with fear in the event of such catostrophe that it will not change the outcome one bit?

Because safey and peace of mind are not worth the money.

 

[taprackbang]

In Texas our unsavory Governor had the intelligence enough to promote public school teachers being allowed to carry a personal handgun.
I think this became a law, but I am not sure off hand.

 

[COMPNOR]

I hope you guys don't think I disagree with making due with what you have.

myrockfight, you actually have reason so my comments aren't directed at you. But this thread is full of useless and senseless posts that bring nothing to the conversation. What does thumping our chests and saying "Don't bring a laptop to a gunfight" accomplish? In this case, a laptop is what you can bring to the gunfight.

The tone I get is carry a gun or be a sheep. And I just don't see why we should allow ourselves only those two options.

Chairs are packed in together, and even *if* every single student immediately jumped up and attacked, it's a given that many someones are going to be injured, perhaps fatally. They may get the guy down, but the trick here is getting a bunch of people to rush him, knowing that they run a huge risk of getting killed. In your garden variety college class, I'm not banking on that. I won't say it isn't a decent option, especially if there's no other exit. OTOH, if you're at the far end of a large room, you'd probably be shot before making it to the shooter.

I've seen plenty of classrooms with only one door. Maybe windows, but those generally are those casemate windows that don't open fully. So getting out of those tightly packed chairs and then rushing and piling up at the door, the only door the shooter could come in through just doesn't strike me as being a whole lot smarter. And you're right. If you're in one of those big autorium style classrooms, if you're at the very back and he's down front you would probably have a higher probability of being shot if you charged him. So perhaps thats one of those times when you wouldn't charge, especially if you could slip out the back. Now for the guy in the first row who would be closer to going out the door in front, the door that the guy came through, may be better of charging.

Charging can throw the attacker off guard though. Giving people the proper tools is what any situation should be about.

 

[Intune]

Giving people the proper tools is what any situation should be about.

The proper tool at a gunfight is a gun. :banghead: Not a laptop, not a bolo, not a knitting needle. A gun.

 

[COMPNOR]

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Except you can't bring a gun to this gunfight! So what are you going to do?

If the bad guy is between you and the door, are you going to politely ask to move aside so that you can run for your life? Or would you throw that $120 thick paperback book that is grossly overpriced at him before trying to slip out the door? Or are you going to cower because you don't have a gun?

Once again, carrying is a PERSONAL choice. So lets just say for the briefest moment that campus carry is legal. So some people do carry. Not all though. And the gunman finds himself a class of people who don't carry. And opens up, now what?

Are you just going to say to these people "Well since you didn't have a gun you get what you deserve, just lay back and take it"? "You didn't carry so you don't take your security that seriously"? Is that then the tone you want to set?

Or do you want to say "Well if you don't want to carry then this is what you should do"?

 

[ZeSpectre]

Well, I posted something related to this just a little while ago and as someone who worked in/with LE and then moved to an educational institution I have to say that everyone here may not be happy with the progress made (to be honest, I'm not satisfied myself) BUT

and this is a HUGE BUT....

You have NO IDEA what a HUGE shift in mindset it is for educational institutions to go from "the best practice is compliance" to even hinting that folks should fight back.

HUGE, this is HUGE!!! I can't stress that enough.
If it still has a long way to go, well, Rome wasn't built in a day and I sometimes think it is easier to quarry rock than change mindsets.

Ze