Cop bashing
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Control Group
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This is the problem - it's not true. You can't lead a normal life and simultaneously guarantee no interaction with the police. If you're the one guy on the freeway actually obeying the speed limit, more power to you - but it's abnormal behavior. If you've never had a taillight burn out while driving, forgotten to wear your seatbelt, crossed outside a crosswalk, rushed a yellow light, turned into the far lane, forgotten to signal a lane change, rolled through a stop, loitered under an awning during a rainstorm, not fed a parking meter enough change, eaten while driving, had your muffler crap out, annoyed your neighbors while barbecuing, dumped a finished cigarette on the ground, walked on the grass, drank alcohol before 21, smoked a cigarette before 18, et cetera, et cetera, again, more power to you. But you're fairly abnormal.
Moreover, even if you are avoiding all those minor pitfalls, you can still be stopped for no reason. One spring break I was back from college, and hanging out with some old high school buddies. We went to a Denny's for dinner, and when we finished, we took a walk up the street the Denny's was on. We were trying to avoid taking up a table in the restaurant after we were done (they were busy), but we were still talking. On our walk back to our cars, we got stopped by an officer turning on his strobes and asking for all our IDs. Sure, he was polite and professional, but since when do you need an ID to walk down a public sidewalk? How should we have avoided that interaction with the police? Note that we hadn't even set foot on any private property. But three guys walking fairly aimlessly down the street around 11:00 was enough to get a cop curious.
Or how about the time I was waiting for a friend of mine at an Arby's. It was a hot, muggy day, and my breathing has never been all that good. I stepped inside the Arby's at one point, used the restroom, and stood in the lobby for a couple minutes, letting the air conditioning work its magic. Then I went back outside, and sat down on the curb. Ten minutes go by, and a police officer shows up with his lights on, and tells me he got a call from the Arby's manager about a suspicious person hanging around. Now, I suppose you could make a case that I was loitering for the few minutes I was in the store and not ordering, but I submit to you it's a bogus claim. It was less than five minutes, and then I was back on public property, waiting for my friend. This got me an interaction with the police. How should I have avoided that one?
This is what people object to, the fact that you have no control over whether or not you interact with the police. You count on their good intentions to protect you from undue hassle, and, generally, you're in good hands. But that doesn't make it any easier to accept that you can be hassled, and you can be grossly inconvenienced, and there's nothing you can do about it.
That is another perspective, Control Group. I'm a 59 yo guy with a paunch and can't remember the last time I was out at 11 p.m. 
Did get stopped for speeding awhile back, on my way home from the range. The cop let me off with a warning (he had no idea I had a weapons and ammo stash in the car, I'm sure).
Did get stopped for speeding awhile back, on my way home from the range. The cop let me off with a warning (he had no idea I had a weapons and ammo stash in the car, I'm sure).
I've never been arrested but I have been hassled by cops.
My friends and I were eating lunch on the outside patio of a mexican restaurant. After the meal they rolled a bugler cigarette and smoked it.
A cop comes up and accuses them of smoking marijuana.
They produced the tobacco packet. The officer tells them he is going to arrest them and let the "lab" figure out what they were smoking.
I politely asked the officer if he arrested everyone who smoke hand rolled cigarettes and why is it legal to buy the rolling papers and tobacco at the local grocery store in the first place.
The cop goes off on a tirade "why can't you punks smoke marlboros like everyone else" and stormed off.
A couple of years later:
After being pulled over.
Cop: What in the F*** are you doing. Do you have any reason for driving like that?
Me: Sir, I wasn't aware of any particular problem. How fast was I going?
Cop: When I ask you a question you better F****** answer it.
Me: I am not aware of anything sir, If you tell me what I did I may be able to answer your question.
Cop: Just get the F*** out of here and don't ever let me see your face again ever!
My best friend and I were pulled over at 8am one morning for speeding.
The officer threatened to arrest him for the set of exacto knives in his college sculpting kit. The cop dragged him out of his car and pulled him in front of the dash cam. The cops hand was clenched around the the collar of my friends shirt.
The cop repeatedly told him " you spit on my hand..wipe it off" My friend said he did not and refused. Knowing full well what would happen if he put his hand on the cops hand. Finally the cop got frustrated and left.
These are just a couple of examples from 100% law abiding citizens with no record. The bad experiences seem sto stick in the mind a little more than the good for some reason.
My friends and I were eating lunch on the outside patio of a mexican restaurant. After the meal they rolled a bugler cigarette and smoked it.
A cop comes up and accuses them of smoking marijuana.
They produced the tobacco packet. The officer tells them he is going to arrest them and let the "lab" figure out what they were smoking.
I politely asked the officer if he arrested everyone who smoke hand rolled cigarettes and why is it legal to buy the rolling papers and tobacco at the local grocery store in the first place.
The cop goes off on a tirade "why can't you punks smoke marlboros like everyone else" and stormed off.
A couple of years later:
After being pulled over.
Cop: What in the F*** are you doing. Do you have any reason for driving like that?
Me: Sir, I wasn't aware of any particular problem. How fast was I going?
Cop: When I ask you a question you better F****** answer it.
Me: I am not aware of anything sir, If you tell me what I did I may be able to answer your question.
Cop: Just get the F*** out of here and don't ever let me see your face again ever!
My best friend and I were pulled over at 8am one morning for speeding.
The officer threatened to arrest him for the set of exacto knives in his college sculpting kit. The cop dragged him out of his car and pulled him in front of the dash cam. The cops hand was clenched around the the collar of my friends shirt.
The cop repeatedly told him " you spit on my hand..wipe it off" My friend said he did not and refused. Knowing full well what would happen if he put his hand on the cops hand. Finally the cop got frustrated and left.
These are just a couple of examples from 100% law abiding citizens with no record. The bad experiences seem sto stick in the mind a little more than the good for some reason.
The cop may very well have a reason for making a stop, you just may not be aware of it, and we dont always have the time and inclination to explain our every action. The odds of being hassled are directly proportionate to engaging in activity that is subject to multiple interpretations.
Let's parse the cigarette paper example: If I see a male in his 70s or 80s handrolling I dont pay a whole lot of attention because given that person's age it is likely a part of his cultural heritage, as I work in a impoverished rural environment. If I see a male in his forties I get a little more curious, because his age is such that he may have picked up the habit in prison where it is very common and inexpensive from the commissary, in those instututions that still permit smoking. It doesnt mean he is a convict, but it does mean that he is engaging in the same behaviors as some convicts. If I see a person in their teens or twenties I become curious also, because empirically it is relatively uncommon behavior. I know, I know, everybody knows a college kid who does, but you know far more who dont. However, approximately 100% of people who smoke dope, not in a pipe, handroll. Therefore it is just probability that seeing a young person do that is liable to attract attention.
Now personally I doubt I would stop a kid who handrolled while sitting at an outdoor cafe in broad daylight. The same may not be true if I see one do it behind the dumpster after dark at the same cafe.
The point I am trying to make is that police work involves the constant evaluation of constellations of possible explanations for human behavior. Many civilians may not consider or even know of some of these issues. While in a perfect world we may try to explain ourselves, that may not always take place. For example, if during a traffic stop I observe an empty coffee can or bag in your car, your car is getting searched, no ifs ands or buts. Some of you know why, and I'll bet some dont. Depending on the interaction I may explain why, or I may not, but your car is still getting searched regardless. Seeing that coffee can or bag means something to me that to you it may or may not, but to me it can appear to be evidence of a crime.
Let's parse the cigarette paper example: If I see a male in his 70s or 80s handrolling I dont pay a whole lot of attention because given that person's age it is likely a part of his cultural heritage, as I work in a impoverished rural environment. If I see a male in his forties I get a little more curious, because his age is such that he may have picked up the habit in prison where it is very common and inexpensive from the commissary, in those instututions that still permit smoking. It doesnt mean he is a convict, but it does mean that he is engaging in the same behaviors as some convicts. If I see a person in their teens or twenties I become curious also, because empirically it is relatively uncommon behavior. I know, I know, everybody knows a college kid who does, but you know far more who dont. However, approximately 100% of people who smoke dope, not in a pipe, handroll. Therefore it is just probability that seeing a young person do that is liable to attract attention.
Now personally I doubt I would stop a kid who handrolled while sitting at an outdoor cafe in broad daylight. The same may not be true if I see one do it behind the dumpster after dark at the same cafe.
The point I am trying to make is that police work involves the constant evaluation of constellations of possible explanations for human behavior. Many civilians may not consider or even know of some of these issues. While in a perfect world we may try to explain ourselves, that may not always take place. For example, if during a traffic stop I observe an empty coffee can or bag in your car, your car is getting searched, no ifs ands or buts. Some of you know why, and I'll bet some dont. Depending on the interaction I may explain why, or I may not, but your car is still getting searched regardless. Seeing that coffee can or bag means something to me that to you it may or may not, but to me it can appear to be evidence of a crime.
A coffee can??? 
There are at least three rolling around the back of my van, with holes punched in the lids. They make great holders for snakes, lizards, and creepy crawlies.
What heinous crime have I committed by having an empty coffee can in my vehicle?
pax
There are at least three rolling around the back of my van, with holes punched in the lids. They make great holders for snakes, lizards, and creepy crawlies.
What heinous crime have I committed by having an empty coffee can in my vehicle?
pax
Well centac, people's perception is going to be affected by how you interact with people. So you're curious about somebody handrolling. Do you threaten him with arrest after he shows you evidence that he's engaging in a perfectly lawful activity? Do you eat crow, apologize like a gentleman, or storm off in angry huff? Just something to think about.
And I am very curious how an empty coffee can is prima facie evidence of a crime.
And I am very curious how an empty coffee can is prima facie evidence of a crime.
Control Group
Member
You know, that's the single best example of the fundamental problem so many have with police officers I've seen yet.
I drink coffee. I don't clean my car often. I have no idea what nefarious purpose someone can put a coffee can to (though I'm guessing it has something to do with cooking up drugs...?), but there's an empty coffee can in my car right now.
Apparently, this means I'm going to get hassled by you if you pull me over.
And also apparently, you don't see any problem with this.
Meanwhile, I'm sitting here at my keyboard, actually becoming angry as I contemplate the fact that, according to you, an officer of the law, I'm liable for a search without doing anything illegal. In fact, I'm trying very difficult to not stray from the high road as I contemplate the incredible high-handed authoritarianism you're exhibiting in such a blasé fashion, and that you consider it so reasonable that you actually trot it out as a defense of the system.
I don't know that I'm succeeding, and I apologixze if I'bve given offense. I'm aware that you're just trying to do your job, and I'm trying as hard as I can to not be angry with you, but with the system that makes that statement perfectly acceptable.
Anyhow, if you don't see why that policy of yours infuriates me, there's clearly nothing more here to talk about; and we have a fundamental disagreement on our prioritization of individual liberty vs. the need to catch criminals.
jefnvk
Member
You know, my dad and grandpa tells me that there was no need for that, because the teacher would punish you themselves, and when word got home to dad that you were misbehaving in school, they got you a second time.
I think the people that bash cops based on teh few bad ones, need to step back and realize that every group has its bad people. Gun owners have their bad characters, that the same people will insist that there are only a few of and even the other gunnies don't like. Why won't they realize that police are the same way.
I can realize that 99% of peace protestors are not pinko commies that want total control of your lives, but some will bash them on what a few extremeists do.
I can realize that 99% of Muslims are as peacefulk as 99% or Christians and Jewish people, that the few extremeists are the problem.
So I realize with police, the vast majority are not power greedy people, with a sense that they are supercitizens. In fact the few police I know personally don't look at it as anything other than a job.
And it doesn't help that a lot of people hating police have been arrested before.
Also, it seems that a lot of people that have a problem with police aggrivate the police anyway they can (by speeding by when the cop has someone else pulled over, giving them the finger when they are tied upo doing something else, calling them pigs or making donut jokes). Some just seem that they want to be hasseled so they can complain about it.
Control Group
Member
Yeah, I said I was done, but I can't help myself.
I don't understand how you can not see how threatening this is to us mere civilians. I don't understand how you can think we should just blithely go along with this, and be sympathetic to the officer involved. I don't understand how you expect us to not think of the police as the enemy under these conditions.
I'm close to wandering off into tinfoil hat territory, because I know full well we aren't a police state or anything like it. But God in Heaven above, it's hard not to when presented with such a blatant statement of authoritarianism. "We know the rules, you don't, so just trust us, you're breaking them."
The mind boggles.
How do you not also see this as a problem? When the police are the enforcers of laws and policies that they know I don't know about, how the expletive literally deleted do you expect me to not have an us vd. them mentality? According to you (and in my opinion, you're right), there's some mysterious code of conduct which us mere civilians don't have access to, and if we don't obey this hidden doctrine, we're subject to whatever the cop feels like doing to us.
I don't understand how you can not see how threatening this is to us mere civilians. I don't understand how you can think we should just blithely go along with this, and be sympathetic to the officer involved. I don't understand how you expect us to not think of the police as the enemy under these conditions.
I'm close to wandering off into tinfoil hat territory, because I know full well we aren't a police state or anything like it. But God in Heaven above, it's hard not to when presented with such a blatant statement of authoritarianism. "We know the rules, you don't, so just trust us, you're breaking them."
The mind boggles.
Vernal45
member
That explains it all. nuff said.
Vernal45
member
Scratching my head on that logic. Police State Logic. Empty can/bag = evidence to a crime and warrants a search. WOW.
With statements like Centac's, you still ask why people distrust LE.
But the only way I can determine that you arent breaking the law is to investigate. If that infuriates you, so be it. If I wanted people to like me I'd be a fireman. If you are clean, you'll be on your way with an explanation. If you are'nt you'll be riding with me. Bottom line, you are engaging in a pattern of behavior that is identical to that which in my training and experience certain types of offenders do. Dont wanna get "hassled", dont do it.
As for the "secret code of conduct" you missed my point. We are trained and experienced to recognize certain behaviors as probable cause that a crime has occurred, or is in progress.
This'll light ya up - when I worked pedo cases I would always look at the books a suspect kept around their house or wherever. Yes, me, a JBT, monitored their reading habits, just like 1984. Why? Because I knew through my training and experience that there were a number of books that pedophiles found appealing, and some they would use to desenstize potential victims. I also checked out their mail and newspapers, because many of them found "material" in something as innocuous as the Sunday clothing ads. You could walk into one of these guy's places and not think twice, I could walk in and find a gold mine of evidence.
The only "code of conduct" ya gotta worry about is pretty simple - don't break the law.
As for the "secret code of conduct" you missed my point. We are trained and experienced to recognize certain behaviors as probable cause that a crime has occurred, or is in progress.
This'll light ya up - when I worked pedo cases I would always look at the books a suspect kept around their house or wherever. Yes, me, a JBT, monitored their reading habits, just like 1984. Why? Because I knew through my training and experience that there were a number of books that pedophiles found appealing, and some they would use to desenstize potential victims. I also checked out their mail and newspapers, because many of them found "material" in something as innocuous as the Sunday clothing ads. You could walk into one of these guy's places and not think twice, I could walk in and find a gold mine of evidence.
The only "code of conduct" ya gotta worry about is pretty simple - don't break the law.
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Presumably, you had some other 'evidence' that made the subject a 'suspect' prior to 'investigating' reading material. This is different than seeing a coffee can during a traffic stop and assuming the motorist is a drug dealer (until he proves to you he is not, which seems to be your message).
No, that is not true.
I don't want strangers rifling through my private belongings.
I don't care whether the strangers are wearing uniforms or not. I would prefer to keep myself TO myself, thankyouverymuch.
You posted that something I've been doing as a matter of course gives you the right & authority to rifle through my private belongings.
Therefore, since I hate strangers rifling through my stuff, I gotta worry about doing stuff that isn't against the law -- at least in your jurisdiction! -- or I will have strangers rifling through my stuff.
Let me ask again: What crime is that coffee can evidence of?
I would really like to know.
thanks,
pax
I coulda sworn Vernal, with his great wealth of experience as a cop woulda known this:
Drug runners will take coffee grounds and sprinkle them throughout the car, trying to through off the dogs by masking the scent of the dope. Smart ones throw the bag or can away, dumb ones pitch'em in the back seat. Think about it, Who brews coffee in their car? The only logical explanation for an empty coffee can or bag in a car is either you have one heck of a percolator or you are up to something nefarious.
BTW, it doesnt work, neither does fabric softener sheets, it just gives us PC to search your car. I am also not a big antidrug cop, but if ya wave a big red flag in front of my face I'll sure check it out.
woulda known this:Drug runners will take coffee grounds and sprinkle them throughout the car, trying to through off the dogs by masking the scent of the dope. Smart ones throw the bag or can away, dumb ones pitch'em in the back seat. Think about it, Who brews coffee in their car? The only logical explanation for an empty coffee can or bag in a car is either you have one heck of a percolator or you are up to something nefarious.
BTW, it doesnt work, neither does fabric softener sheets, it just gives us PC to search your car. I am also not a big antidrug cop, but if ya wave a big red flag in front of my face I'll sure check it out.
TallPine
Member
I for one appreciate how the "cop bashers" bait such insightful responses from LEOs
Sindawe
Member
Perhaps its time to keep things that are nasty and things that bite in the car.
A good friend of mine and his brother were searched during a traffic stop because they looked like hippies. tie dyed, camo shorts, funny hair.
The cop went through his pockets and found a plastic bag.
The cop sneered and asked well boy what did you have in here?
My friend replied "a sandwich"
"Why are you carrying around an empty plastic bag?" the cop asks next.
"Because I don't litter" was the next response
The cop became irate and began tearing the vehicle apart looking for drugs.
Finding nothing some task force shows up with drug dogs and proceed to hold
my friend and his brother on the side of the road for over an hour while they
tore apart every inch of that car.
The cops never found anything and all their stuff was left scattered on the side of the road. Now there are two more people who dislike cops.
The cop went through his pockets and found a plastic bag.
The cop sneered and asked well boy what did you have in here?
My friend replied "a sandwich"
"Why are you carrying around an empty plastic bag?" the cop asks next.
"Because I don't litter" was the next response
The cop became irate and began tearing the vehicle apart looking for drugs.
Finding nothing some task force shows up with drug dogs and proceed to hold
my friend and his brother on the side of the road for over an hour while they
tore apart every inch of that car.
The cops never found anything and all their stuff was left scattered on the side of the road. Now there are two more people who dislike cops.
*sigh*
Okay, thanks, centac.
You've at least made your position clear.
pax
who wonders how the hell she's going to explain to the kids that they can't take their super-duper bug collectors everywhere they go...
It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up. -- Muhammad Ali
Vernal45
member
Yes, I have experience, and yes I know about concealing drugs in coffee grounds. Also druggies have been know to hide them in laundry detergent. Does that mean you search when you see a box of tide.
Guilty to proven innocent, heh Centac.
The only experience I see you have, and growing, is vast experience in being a JBT.
Yeah, that is unfortunately true.
If you have a community full of law-n-order types who are extremely anti drug and basically support any law, no matter how stupid, as long as it can be tied to the War On Drugs, then you end up with cops who'll search without a warrant and over the objection of the driver based on some stupid thing like having a coffee can in the vehicle.
pax
I never thought much of the courage of a lion-tamer. Inside the cage he is at least safe from people. -- George Bernard Shaw
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