Cop bashing

[Control Group]

The only "code of conduct" ya gotta worry about is pretty simple - don't break the law

And, apparently, don't have coffee cans or empty bags in my car. Which isn't written anywhere but on this thread, as far as I know. What other little rules do I have to follow if I don't want to be searched next time I get pulled over for no real reason*?

Bottom line, you are engaging in a pattern of behavior that is identical to that which in my training and experience certain types of offenders do

Perhaps, but that behavior isn't illegal, and the "evidence" you describe can just as easily be evidence of someone who likes coffee as of someone who does whatever it is that coffee cans are supposedly evidence of.

But the only way I can determine that you arent breaking the law is to investigate

This is the heart of the matter, right here. Since when is a cop's job to determine someone isn't breaking the law? I was under the impression a cop's job is to determine when someone has broken the law. And no, it's not the same thing. A coffee can in my car isn't breaking any law, and it's certainly not obvious evidence that any law has been broken, since I've got one in my car right now, and I know perfectly well the only law I've broken lately is the speed limit. It's the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing; I shouldn't have to prove to you I'm innocent. You don't have any right - or shouldn't, at least - to give me a hard time because I'm doing something completely legal just in case I might be a criminal. Not only does this infuriate me, I don't understand how it doesn't infuriate you.

This'll light ya up - when I worked pedo cases I would always look at the books a suspect kept around their house or wherever. Yes, me, a JBT, monitored their reading habits, just like 1984

This doesn't light me up at all, since I assume that when you say "working a pedo case," you mean investigating a legitimate suspect you have independent reason to believe may have committed the crime. Once you've got legit PC, then sure, search everything I own. I trust modern police methods to, by and large, be good enough that PC warrants a full search with few enough mistakes to make it worthwhile. Now, if you're saying this meaning that you examine some guy's reading habits and whether or not he's got a Sunday paper in order to determine whether or not to investigate him, then yeah, it lights me up. But I'll assume the former is the case, unless you tell me otherwise.

*No real reason, in this case, means something similar to the time I was pulled over in Whitewater one night. I was stopped at a flashing red, waiting to go straight. A car came from my right, turned right onto my road, and proceeded away from me. I went through the intersection. As I accelerated up to 25, the strobes came on behind me. The officer asked me if I had stopped at the flashing red, and I said "yes," because I had. He just nodded, took my license, ran it, then came back to my window and handed it back with only a "have a good evening, sir." I found out later from the driver of the car who had turned (a friend of mine, whom I was actually driving to meet at the time), that the officer had pulled out after her because she was speeding. I happened to get between them because he hadn't closed the distance to pull her over yet, so I got stopped. Guess it's a good thing I didn't have any empty coffee cans in my car.

 

[LawDog]

An empty coffee can could be a reason for you to ask for voluntary consent to search the vehicle.

*scratch, scratch*

Personally, I want a lot more indicators before I haul off and ask if I can paw through someones' personal possessions. An empty coffee can just doesn't quite cut the mustard.

I can see myself trying to explain that one to the Sheriff: "Sheriff, she had an empty coffee can in the back of the SUV, so I tore the vehicle apart."

Yeah.

The Sheriff would rip my head off and then kick my dying carcass out the front door for that one.

And about the third person who complained to the Sheriff after denying me permission to search their vehicle because of empty coffee cans, and Yours Truly would be in Remedial Training. On mids. Out in the BFE part of the County.

Hell, if you can get a search warrant based on an empty coffee can, I really want to see your PC affidavit.

LawDog

 

[centac]

If y'all want to take my example as an excuse to be put-upon have at it. The point is that we have to analyze a plethora of variables in order to determine whether or not criminal activity is afoot.

Here, rip me a new one over this: an officer on patrol passes a car and occupant parked in front of an elementary school. The officer recognized the driver as a person who has been identified in a number of child molest cases, but he was never prosecuted because the DA felt the victims would not be effective witnesses because they were too young. The car is missing a red lens over one taillight You are the officer - whatcha gonna do? Remember he's innocent until proven guilty, right?

 

[P95Carry]

Apart from coffee cans and a few other assorted goodies - does this strike anyone as having achieved much more than most other cop threads?

From where I am - it is little different. As ever, I see points for and against in all directions and yet - nothing has really changed..... the frictions and disparities continue and there are flaws in the system. I have one or two tales of less than ideal encounters - but I also have instances I could relate of very good ones too - maybe I am fortunate to have a better balance in my perceptions.

All that said - I am heartily tired of the same old stuff - because whilst it ''airs'' grievances - it changes little and just gets darned tedious to read - which I have to try and do as a Mod.

From this seat it just seems like ''gimme a break''!! I'd rather talk guns!

 

[R.H. Lee]

I dunno, centac. You seem to be all over the place with these diverse examples. They don't seem to be coherent. Of course a previous (uncleared) pedophile suspect parked near an elementary school with a broken tail light deserves your attention. Write him up, let him know you recognize him, ask him why he's parked near the school, etc., etc.

You see the difference between that searching a vehicle based on an empty coffee can, don't you?

 

[centac]

"does this strike anyone as having achieved much more than most other cop threads?"

No it doesnt. Dialogue seems impossible. Everyone has a war story of horrific maltreatment, so my entire profession must suck, cause people say so on the internet.

 

[LawDog]

Umm, centac, possible child molestor suspect isn't in the same class as an empty coffee can rolling about in the back seat of a car.

What would I do in the above-cited case?

Do a Field Interview Card on the contact. During the FIC, check for plain-view, run a 27 on his DL, asking Dispatch to manually check for Protective Orders.

Since Emergency Protective Orders would have been issued as part of the initial series of arrests, there's a good possibility that he's violating one or more EPO's.

That's an immediate arrest.

If he isn't violating an EPO somewhere, I contact CAPERS (Crimes Against Persons) and let them know what I've got, talk to the critter until he gets nervous, and when he steps on the brake, I cite him for defective tail-lamps, taking my time with the citation.

If, after all that time, CAPERS hasn't gotten back to me with instructions, cut him loose.

LawDog

 

[TallPine]

I'd rather talk guns!

A 45 is better than a 9mm

An AK is better than an AR

 

[AK-74me]

My experiences with Cops.

Age 15-
Playing capture the flag one night at local golf course around midnight one of the grounds keepers checking on the sprinkler system caught us and damn near ran me over in the golf cart to catch me. He held me there and called the cops. The cop showed up and said to me, what were you doing out here in the middle of the night? I told him playing capture th flag. He said did you tear anything up? I said nope. He then says hey don't you pitch for the High school baseball team. I said yup. He says, thought so, get in I'll drive you home. Dropped me off at home end of story.

Age-16 pulled over for speeding..... warning.

Age-20 pulled over speeding .......ticket.

Age-22 pulled over for speeding...... ticket, had to do a soberity test, I had been drinking much early that day but wasn't drunk. Preformed and passed all his tests. Gave me a ticket for the speeding part.

Age-27 pulled over for cutting a red light too close coming back from dinner. Cop ask if I had anything to drink. I say yeah a 22 oz beer with my dinner, but that is all. He gives me a second look. I said hey man really I haven't been out partying just dinner. He says, ok be careful you could get yourself jammed up doing stuff like that. Gives me a verbal warning and says go home.

Thus unlike alot of you all, I am happy with the way I have been treated. I have always been candid and never acted nervous or tried to lie and all has worked out for me. Maybe my apperance has something to do with it, I don't know but I am about the furtest thing away from a hippie you can get. I wear my pants around my waste and hat facing foward. I don't try to act like a thug or test cops when I am stopped. So I guess cops do profile people afterall. So what I would too? Walks like duck, talks like a duck.........

 

[pax]

LawDog ~

Have I told you lately how much I respect you?

pax

Any of us in a position of statutory authority - - Peace officer, deputy sheriff, city cop, state police, or some kind of federal agent - - must always remember: The Bill of Rights was codified to protect the public against People Like US! I enjoy being a quiet, peaceful member of the community. Personally, I’d just as soon remember the Bill of Rights on my own, and not need to be reminded of it in federal court - - or on the front page of the newspaper. – Johnny Guest

 

[centac]

Nope, you do not have legal standing to approach the guy at the school. He isnt committing a crime and the car is parked and not in operation. You dont have sufficient probable cause. Just because you "know" he is a child molester isnt sufficient, you need to be able to articulate a specific reason based on what you observe at the time.

I can observe an empty coffee can and extrapolate that observation into probable cause. Now of course I am not gonna do this in a vacuum, but combine it with collateral observations. Whose more suspicious, a woman with her kiddies or some tatted-up scootertrash? How many little old ladies have you seen running drugs? (Correct answer: Plenty - they are the courier of choice for several organizations) Things are rarely as simple as they seem.

Y'all want black and white, well, in policing all ya get are shades of grey.

 

[20cows]

Centac,

The case you just mentioned is different because this person has a known history of suspicious behavior.

In the other cases you mention there is no such history, the only things you know of this person is what came up when you ran his liscense (I venture to guess most come up "clean") and what you observe during the stop. Keep these things in mind as you proceed:
1) most people are not criminals, 2) are probably not engaged in illegal activities at the time you pulled them over, 3) there are a great many legal activities that present the same outward pattern of behavior, 4) your prejudices (pre-judgements are just that) are your own, 5) the Constitution says you don't get to go through their stuff if they don't let you, 6) due process says that if you go ahead, you need much more PC than a "suspicion" (your job should be on the line).

Frankly, you scare me.

Lawdog, thank you.

 

[LawDog]

I don't have to have Probable Cause to fill out a Field Interview Card, just Reasonable Suspicion.

And someone personally known to me as a person of interest in a series of child molestations being parked in front of a school is a textbook definition of Reasonable Suspicion.

And, as you will notice, I would wait until he had stepped on the brake before writing the citation.

LawDog

 

[JShirley]

Oh my god.

"the only way I can determine that you arent breaking the law is to investigate"

Let me say, again, oh my god. Prima facie guilt*. Because you haven't proven I'm NOT guilty- ergo, I must be. Holy crap.

"he only "code of conduct" ya gotta worry about is pretty simple - don't break the law"

Ooh! Ooh! I want to play! Quick, Officer Friendly- off the top of your head, tell me how many Federal, state, and local laws there are- kudos if you're within a THOUSAND. Which law?

A very pissed off John

*Main Entry: pri·ma fa·cie
Pronunciation: 'prI-m&-'fA-sh&, -sE, -shE
Function: adverb
Etymology: Latin
: at first view : on first appearance absent other information or evidence...

 

[centac]

Reasonable suspicion of what? There arent any kids in the car, you are going to hassle him based on what he might do in the future?

 

[Vernal45]

Yes, I have made several arrests, cant count how many. NONE were over turned, and no ones rights were abused. YOUR kind of LE scares me Centac. It is police state mentality.

YOU basically stated that am empty coffee can, empty bag, and tatooed scootertrash is PC to search. What freaking academy taught you that? YOU need to get your money back on that education.

 

[Control Group]

I want to take a second here to thank Vernal45, LawDog, and any other law officers who've posted similarly for their contributions. I honestly don't think I'm a cop basher, but certain posts were really making me wonder if I was losing my mind, or if the people I often dismiss as "tinfoil hat" types have been right all this time.

Anyway, thank you for reminding me why the system as it is, even with the flaws I do believe it to have, still works pretty much well pretty much all the time.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

Nope, you do not have legal standing to approach the guy at the school.

Just because you "know" he is a child molester isnt sufficient, you need to be able to articulate a specific reason based on what you observe at the time.

Say what?!???!??!

Dude please tell me you are joking in all!

I’ve just glanced over this thread and seen folks all bent out of shape about you searching cars based on coffee cans but standing firm on not having the legal basis for a brief stop on a known sex offender parked outside a school.

***, over!

 

[JShirley]

CG,

Cops are like any other group: some "good", some "bad", many mediocre.

It's too bad the bad eggs reflect on the perfectly righteous ones.

John

 

[centac]

Vern,

If you were a real cop ya woulda pick mom and kiddies, bikers are smarter than to hold when they are out and about. Soccer moms in minivans are the new dope roamers of choice.

 

[jsalcedo]

Everyone has a war story of horrific maltreatment, so my entire profession must suck, cause people say so on the internet.

Sorry I thought this was a cop bashing thread

Seriously, I have had cops pull me over for no seatbelt then tell me that they are concerned for my safety, god bless and no ticket.

I had a public relations cop help me during an accident (very nice guy) even though his job was to visit school kids and he had no idea how to fill out a police report.

I had a cop offer to help me with my broken down heap when I told him I had it under control he gave me his stash of flares because it was getting dark.

Not anti-cop just anti-jackboot

 

[centac]

"I’ve just glanced over this thread and seen folks all bent out of shape about you searching cars based on coffee cans but standing firm on not having the legal basis for a brief stop on a known sex offender parked outside a school."

Whaddya suppose the pedo's lawyer is going to say? The guy hasnt been convicted, remember. That "innocent until proven guilty" thing everyone's so fond of?

 

[20cows]

If you were a real cop ya woulda pick mom and kiddies, bikers are smarter than to hold when they are out and about. Soccer moms in minivans are the new dope roamers of choice.

PROFILING GONE MAD!!!!!

 

[Control Group]

Not anti-cop just anti-jackboot

Exactly. It took me a heck of a lot more words to say it, but that's what I've been trying to say.

As I've said before, with only one exception, every single officer I've dealt with has been polite, professional, and as helpful as circumstances have dictated. My opinion of officers as a group is quite high.

JShirley: you're right, and I try to keep that in mind whenever something like some of the posts in this thread get me all riled up. Unfortunately for me (and everyone who has to put up with my ranting), some things can get me riled up mighty quick.

 

[115grfmj]

I'm not a cop but......

I think cop bashing is generally protrayed by the misinformed. I have known
a great many cops who are gun people and support our rights, and a few
who don't. There in lies the crux of the situation. Police forces can be considered to be microcosm's of our society, in which you will have differing
cultures, attitudes, education, backgrounds, and opinions. Bashing cops
as a whole, generalization in a most extreme fashion.