Crimson Trace and Rule #3

[Zundfolge]

A friend of mine stopped by the other day and showed off his new Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry.

Beautiful piece isn't it?

Well after clearing it and verifying it was empty I drew it up, hit the button to turn on the laser and ... well nothing.

Seems that in the spirit of Rule #3 (keep your booger hook off the bang switch until sights are on target and you're ready to fire) I've developed the much lauded habit of indexing my trigger finger along the frame instead of putting it on the trigger.

Well this just doesn't work with a Crimson Trace grip ... in fact my finger was glowing bright red, clearly blocking the laser from shining on target.

So now I'm not so sure that CT laser grips are all that good since they're so easy to block when observing safe handling practices.

Too bad the LaserMax recoil spring lasers have such a bad reputation.

 

[jem375]

Well, you wouldn't be shooting if your trigger finger is there anyway... I will have one put on just don't know which handgun to put it on...

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Once you verify that the weapon is clear place some snap caps and have a try. You will see if yuo are pulling or pushing the gun.

 

[Zundfolge]

The problem is you're going to have to put your finger on a light single action trigger to get it out of the way of the laser.

Part of the reason we index our fingers along the frame is so that under stress we don't accidentally pull the trigger before we've fulfilled the mandates of Rule #4 (make sure of your target and what's behind it).

I dry fire most of my pistols often, so I have no problem putting the finger on the trigger when its safe to do so, but I'm more concerned that some of the safety protocols we train with will need to be tossed out the window to use the CT (both during training AND in a crisis situation).


I'm thinking the LaserLyte is the better solution (but unfortunately I don't own any Glocks )

 

[Dravur]

Hmmmmm, just found this in the Modern Cookbook of the NRA Chef...

Disaster Cookies..

Take one ill placed laser
add in one ham flavored fist with wandering digits.
Add 1/2 cup of brass, powder and lead.
Stir with a 5 lbs trigger mechanism.

Now, this can be cooked by wandering around with the ham flavored digits with the trigger mechanism.

Voila! You have created Disaster Cookies.

Server with a dollop of remorse and a nice Dark Ale.

Serves 2

 

[M2 Carbine]

Well this just doesn't work with a Crimson Trace grip ... in fact my finger was glowing bright red, clearly blocking the laser from shining on target.

So now I'm not so sure that CT laser grips are all that good since they're so easy to block when observing safe handling practices.

As is common with folks that "play around" with the laser, you don't know what you are doing. No offense, that's common since what most people know about the laser is what they learned from the movies, which is mostly wrong.

The laser is not a flashlight and it's not used to identify the threat. That's what a flashlight or gun mounted light is for. The laser is a aiming device for use in low light.
The laser is lit when you are about to shoot, meaning after you have your finger on the trigger.

I practice several evenings a week with lasers and laser/lights. (home range).
What I strive for is,
identify the target,
quickly point the gun at the target,
light the laser as the finger is moved to the trigger,
correct point of aim if necessary as the trigger is pulled.
All this should be done in one fast smooth motion.
Depending on how long it takes to identify the target all this should take less than a second starting with the gun pointed off the target, finger off the trigger and laser off.

I'm an old fart, so I have to admit to being a little slow.

 

[Buck Snort]

It sounds to me like somebody needs a bit of training in handling a laser equiped handgun.

 

[Brian Williams]

Nope, it sounds to me like Booger hook off the bang switch is great, Laser is blocked by proper placement of booger hook.
Maybe training is necessary but, if it precludes being safe, get rid of the grips.

 

[halfded]

Crimson Trace actually touts that as a "feature" of their system. When clearing an area or something similar, while indexing the gun the laser is mostly hidden so it isn't leading the way around corners giving away your position.

I have one on my j-frame (a little different I know), and I just index slightly lower. I almost rest the tip of my finger against the frontside edge of the trigger guard.

 

[halfded]

Double tap..again.

 

[usp9]

Lasers have their purposes and their limitations.

One great advantage the laser offers is a increased ability to hit the target during unaimed, snap shots, from the retention position or on the move.

Another is improved follow up shots, both in time and accuracy.

If there is time and distance between a threat and the laser user, a laser can be a psychological "game changer" for the attacker. They do in fact scare the crap out of people and can potentially have a de-escalation effect.

The laser's benefits outweigh it's shortcomings IMO

 

[halfded]

Check out Crimson Trace's free DVD. I wasn't a big fan of lasers until I watched it. They bring up lots of good points about shooting off line of sight, point shooting from an injured position, etc. Pretty interesting stuff.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Check out Crimson Trace's free DVD.

+1

The DVD is free for the asking. 800 442 2406

IMO everyone that uses a handgun for defense should view this video.
Even if you have no intentions of getting a laser, or even if you don't like them you should educate yourself on what you could be up against one day.

Personally I am a big fan of lasers and laser/lights. I have them on every gun that I consider a defense gun, handguns, rifles and shotgun. I also have lasers and laser/lights on several practice guns. That's a big expense but after some years of shooting with and experimenting with gun mounted lasers and laser/lights, that's how important I think they are.

But understand, the laser is just a (low light) sighting tool, like iron sights. Like iron sights the laser takes practice and knowledge and is only as good as the shooter that's using it.


These are a couple of my practice guns. To reduce the noise after dark, many times I'll use the 22LR for practice. Have a S&W M&P 15-22 set up exactly like my Bushmasters. The laser/lights I use are the Streamlight TLR-2. (Since the S&W M&P 15-22 handles exactly like the AR it makes a good low cost primary trainer for the AR)


The target.


Fast firing from the hip using the Streamlight TLR-2 at 20 yards.



This Ruger is a very useful gun, not just for low light practice but for checking outside around the place at night.
Fast shooting using just the laser and using the iron sights and light. The laser is faster and the eyes remain focused to the target.




.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Ive been aware of this problem for some time.

Consequently, none of my guns have CTs.

I have found learning to use sights and the strategic use of night sights will generally trump the crowd proclaiming how great CTs are at hitting a target without having to line your sight up with it. Potential yes, probable no.

I do agree that the DVD is very much worth viewing. It gives a lot of bizarre scenarios however unlikely they may be. But most importantly, it shows how to use the CT laser. Most people have no clue how to actually employ it.

 

[Mikil]

Interesting side note about the lazer,if you think you are real steady but are not the lazer will sure indicate your movements in low light out a few yards.

 

[halfded]

FWIW, the laser grip also helped improve my shooting tremendously, especially point and shoot skills. It makes me focus a more on the trigger pull because I can see every little wiggle that dot makes. Straightened out my problem jerking the trigger pretty quick.

When I go to the range, I spend equal time practicing with the laser and without it. The models with the little switch on the bottom are handy for that.

 

[Mikil]

Thats what I don't like about the Crimsom trace it doesn't have a shut off swicth so I made a plastic cap to put over the lens when using the sights.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Thats what I don't like about the Crimsom trace it doesn't have a shut off swicth so I made a plastic cap to put over the lens when using the sights.

Only a few don't have a OFF-ON master switch.

I have the CT on two 38 S&W J Frames. One has the switch, the other doesn't.

After this new shooter (on her first day shooting) used the J Frame in daylight (switch off), as it got dark I had her shoot the 38 using the laser.
She tore the targets up.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Zundfolge..I, too, own and carry a Kimber UCC II. I have smallish hands and have no problem placing my finger along side the frame (not quite) and directing the laser beam. My booger hook placement is a bit modified to accomplish this. Instead of my trigger finger being straight along side the frame. I place that finger on the trigger guard just in front of the trigger. A little practice and it works fine...

 

[armoredman]

Hmm, odd, I have absolutely no difficulty keeping my finger off the trigger AND getting a bright laser beam...older picture there of.

 

[Just One Shot]

The placement of the CT laser isn't all bad.

Consider this, You are clearing your house after being alerted to a possible threat. You don't want to give away your position with your laser as you move from room to room. The position of the emmiter provides you with the ability to maintain light discipline.

By having the laser on auto mode it is ready to go when you get a purchase on the grip. Instead of manually turning it off and rendering it useless or causing a delay to get it back online when you need it, you simply place your trigger finger so that it blocks the laser as described above.

You can still expose the beam by simply moving your finger "without" placing it on the trigger. As with any feature on a gun practice is required. We all had to learn how to properly use the iron sights and this is no different.

Contrary to the belief of some people, lasers do have a place in the self defense tool box. They are not to replace the sights but to augment them under certain conditions. They are not the ultimate tool. They have their limitations just the same as night sights do.

If you don't like them then that's your business, you don't have to purchase them. But, to deny them as having a valid use under certain conditions is just plain crazy to me. This obviously is my opinion (and mine alone) and worth every cent you paid for it.

 

[Phydeaux642]

I kind of get the feeling that if you don't train with a laser a lot then they become more of a distraction than a benefit. Unfortunately, I don't get to shoot near as often as I would like, so, iron sights seem to work better for me. I have had a laser on my 642 and have dry fired it at home and have had it at the range once. That's when I realized that until I can find a range where I can spend more time shooting and less time just trying to get in the place, then iron sights are what I should stick with for now.

 

[SSN Vet]

I place that finger on the trigger guard just in front of the trigger

that sure was a difficult solution to figure out

do all gun board addicts tend to overthink things, or is it just me

there's only one reason I don't have a CT on my Commander...

$$$

they really need to get the price down, especially when not purchased in a package with the gun.

 

[SSN Vet]

Beautiful piece isn't it?

that depends on the eye of the beholder...

I'm not into two tone and I'm not into wood grain plastic...

but it you like it, more power to ya

 

[M2 Carbine]

I kind of get the feeling that if you don't train with a laser a lot then they become more of a distraction than a benefit. Unfortunately, I don't get to shoot near as often as I would like, so, iron sights seem to work better for me.

I'm afraid you have the same problem most shooters have. There's just no where that you can practice anything other than standing at a known distance and slowly shooting.
It's said that about 70 percent of defense shootings occur in low light but (I'd guess) that very few people have actually shot in low light conditions even once, much less get regular practice.