Daughter's school

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OP being true, true but exagerated, falsehood, or a what-if scenario not a concern with my comment here:

So off all the things I've read on the 6 pages worth, I've garnered 2 things out of it all.

1) Parents, Guardians, and Adult relations--teach the "young skulls full of mush" (your children) about gun safety and gun responsibility.

2) Pay attention to the school that your young-uns attend. Remember that no matter if you're in Montana or California or Florida most teachers are libs at heart whether they choose to show it in class or not. It's simple reasoning due to the nature of the beast. So get involved in their schools and if so inclined--run for a school board seat.

With that said--how 'bought locking this thing Mods?
 
Note: Let me say up front that I am not a supporter of "forced" public education, and am in favor of, among other things, some form of voucher system in order to introduce some market forces into the equation. That said...

The premise of my argument was that public schools, because of certain innate attributes (the presence of large numbers of students forming social groups and exerting social pressures on each other
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That sounds amazingly like the real world, which they need to learn to operate in.

the division of a teacher's time across many students, the lack of innate similarity of ability between unrelated teacher/student pairs because they are not genetically related, etc.), are by their nature handicapped.
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All of these things are also true of public schools in countries who's students are academically far out-performing their counterparts in the U.S. Why is that?

The students there are receiving a worse education than they could receive.
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Assuming some theoretical ideal alternative. Absent public schools, how do you suppose most children would receive an education, if at all?

I'm not as interested in individual children as I am in the society as a whole.
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When you make a decision as to where and how your child will be educated, you're making a decision for an individual child. As it turns out, the "society as a whole" that you refer to is a conglomeration of individual children.

A few people having a significantly worse education while the majority receive a significantly better education is a reasonable trade from a societal perspective.
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And how are the majority going to receive this "significantly better education"?

Of course, it would be better to address the problem completely... to provide some sort of standardized education training and assessment for parents.
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You're making a thoroughly invalid assumption here. Namely, that the only thing preventing most parents from being good teachers capable of giving quality instruction across the entire range of subject matter kids need to learn today - or even the majority of it - is the availability of some sort of training program(s). If you really believe that then I suggest you get out and meet a lot more parents, as nothing could be further from the truth.

Or if you want to save yourself some time and effort, just read more internet forums frequented by adults. If the preponderance of abject ignorance displayed in the areas of basic science, mathematics, history and even basic English doesn't change your mind then you're not really paying attention.
 
Assuming some theoretical ideal alternative. Absent public schools, how do you suppose most children would receive an education, if at all?
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Umm... private schools?

Absent government provision of food, how do you suppose most children would eat, if at all?

<Head in hands>
 
Quote:
most teachers are libs at heart

I know many who are not but must concede this statement to be true.
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I disagree. If by most you mean >51%, then i'ts hard to argue, but whats the point?

I taught both high school and University, and I am decidedly Libertarian. I found a surprising number of colleagues were Libertarian; once they realized that being anti-Conservative doesn't make you an automatic "Democrat".

Of course, I haven't talked to everybody, so my sample is less than representative.
 
Assuming some theoretical ideal alternative. Absent public schools, how do you suppose most children would receive an education, if at all?
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Umm... private schools?
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Paid for by....whom? Think about your answer and it's implications for a moment before giving it.

Absent government provision of food, how do you suppose most children would eat, if at all?
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Those parents who can afford the cost of food - which is most of them - buy it. Those who cannot - which are a minority - have it provided, indirectly, by the government via social programs (think food stamps and such.)

Now compare that with private schools, which are not affordable by most parents. Kind of a different situation.
 
Now that's weird. I'm new to this site and have a lot to learn however that's like asking where is the birth control if the teacher is opposed to birth control. Where is the line of privacy? If it were my kid's teacher I'd say MYOB, too!
 
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I'm not going to give a very complete answer because this isn't an education forum and we're drifting a bit, but...

"Sounds like the real world."

Yes. So does going to bars, having sexual relations, fighting wars, dying because you made a simple mistake like opening a car door or failing to buckle your seatbelt... lots of things are very real world yet we try to protect our children from them until the children are prepared. The "self esteem" issues commonly talked about in education/pop psyc circles really boil down to sending a too-young child into a social environment they aren't ready for and discovering that, amazingly, they make a lot of mistakes and become very unhappy with themselves. It is bad parenting to send children into situations they can't handle.

"...also true in public schools in countries where students outperform US students...why?"

Again... bad question. Many of the "public schools" in other nations are very different from ours. However, my premise is that the students of those schools would perform even better if educated properly where properly means the traditional "good" education: tutors.

"how do you suppose most children would receive an education?"

They would be taught by parents, siblings, tutors, or failing that in classroom settings.

"You're making an invalid assumption ... that the only thing preventing most parents from being good teachers [is] the availability of some training program(s)"

Umm... I'm not making anything like that assumption. There are many excellent training programs available right now. My assumption is that the only thing preventing parents from being good teachers is that they don't want to be teachers. They wanted to make babies but they don't want to be responsible for making capable adults out of those babies. They've been given an out and so they are taking it. I don't have to respect them for that though, do I? I don't have to pretend they are good parents when they are really just lazy parents... I hope.


"Read more internet forums frequented by adults..."

Adults who (statistically) all received public school educations.... you are sort of making my point here.

For the record: I don't have kids. My observations are based on my own experiences and the homeschooled and public schooled adults I've known.

One side advantage of home schooling is that it gives the kids a chance to be outside and, if they are in a suitable environment, do things like hunting and shooting, during the day. -- just to make it gun related. :)
 
My assumption is that the only thing preventing parents from being good teachers is that they don't want to be teachers. They wanted to make babies but they don't want to be responsible for making capable adults out of those babies. They've been given an out and so they are taking it. I don't have to respect them for that though, do I? I don't have to pretend they are good parents when they are really just lazy parents... I hope.
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Well, see...right here you tip your hand and expose your own foolishness. My children have attended public schools and are well-adjusted, well-educated and not suffering from any sort of neglect of parental responsbility. Perhaps you should add some depth to your thinking and progress beyond this knee-jerk condemnation of people who realize that perhaps there are other compelling factors involved besides responsibility and desire.

Adults who (statistically) all received public school educations....
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Except for those who didn't, who also tend to display the same deficiencies...statistically speaking.

you are sort of making my point here.
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No. You're fallaciously inferring causality from coincidence. The fact is that the majority of people - regardless of the source of their education (or lack thereof) - are simply not desirous nor capable of being well-educated on a wide array of subjects. Some people simply have no mathematical aptitude, others are too lazy to be well-read, etc.

For the record: I don't have kids.
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That explains a lot.
 
I hope she gets fired ASAFP. That is a complete outrage.


I am a teacher at a private boarding school. All the kids have lap tops, one of the 10th grader's background screen was him shooting an AR-15 at the range. The only thing I asked was "hey is that a Bushmaster or Colt? Nice looking rifle." :)
 
Wineoceros... I don't doubt your kids are healthy, well adjusted, or even well educated as such things are usually measured. I doubt they are as educated as they could be.

As I've said... I've got a lot of educators in my family and I was seeped in the traditions of public education from an early age. However, I'm also aware of the growing body of science which reveals deep and fundemental flaws in the very structure of public schooling. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction and it isn't a sudden fancy.

I realize you have an emotional investment in the idea that what you did was the best possible thing you could have done. Think of the people in the 1930s through 1950s who took their kids to radium baths or gave them medicinal cigarettes... they too were trying to be excellent parents. Unfortunately they didn't have all the facts. They didn't know that they were actually raising the chances that their kids would die of cancer. The basic science hadn't yet been done.

It has been done now. We know better. We can't go back and change past mistakes, we can't undo the harm, but we can stop repeating the old errors.

Adults who (statistically) all received public school educations....
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Except for those who didn't, who also tend to display
the same deficiencies...statistically speaking.
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You have made a logical error here. A comparison of unlike kinds.
 
I realize you have an emotional investment in the idea that what you did was the best possible thing you could have done. Think of the people in the 1930s through 1950s who took their kids to radium baths or gave them medicinal cigarettes... they too were trying to be excellent parents. Unfortunately they didn't have all the facts. They didn't know that they were actually raising the chances that their kids would die of cancer. The basic science hadn't yet been done.
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OK. You're a clueless, presumptive fool who thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does. In other words, a waste of time.

You have made a logical error here. A comparison of unlike kinds.
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Uh....no.
 
We had a similar if less dramatic incident right here in good old pro gun Montana with one of our kids. A high school teacher assigned them to count how many guns were in their house and report the number back to him. Naturally the assignment was not completed, but without negative results.
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Sounds like that ought to be reported to the police. Does the teacher have a drug habit that they are looking for places to steal guns? Or passing along the info to their "friends"?

Ken
 
Wineocerous...

I find it fascinating that you take this so personally. Why do you feel it is apropriate to attempt to insult me by calling me a fool and so on? I haven't insulted you.

If you believe you are correct, present a theory as to why. I have given reasons for my position. You have given insults and insinuations in return. At this point your position appears to be based entirely on emotion. You cannot argue for your premise and when challenged you resort to ad hominem attacks.

Which, in reality, is exactly what I would expect from someone with a public school education. Rather than dealing with reality you attempt to apply social pressure. You expect social dynamics to trump facts. You can't recognize the fallacies in your own arguments, nor address the meat of a legitimate criticism of your position.

Sigh.
 
Wineocerous...

I find it fascinating that you take this so personally. Why do you feel it is apropriate to attempt to insult me by calling me a fool and so on? I haven't insulted you.

If you believe you are correct, present a theory as to why. I have given reasons for my position. You have given insults and insinuations in return. At this point your position appears to be based entirely on emotion. You cannot argue for your premise and when challenged you resort to ad hominem attacks.
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Wait for the inevitable hypocrisy. Wait for it.....

Which, in reality, is exactly what I would expect from someone with a public school education.
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And there it is. Thanks for being so predictable.
 
Again you haven't addressed the meat of the argument.

Having a public school education is not an insult. I have a public school education.

Further, it isn't hypocricy to say that a particular envirment (public school) causes people to respond to problems with social pressure instead of rational solutions, and then point out that you are doing exactly what I say people with public school educations will do.

Failing repeatedly to move beyond your emotion to address the heart of the arguments presented is a problem.
 
Failing repeatedly to move beyond your emotion to address the heart of the arguments presented is a problem.
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Well, no. The problem is your constant logical fallacies coupled with your repeated dishonest claims that I haven't presented dispassionate, substantive arguments. Your need to convince yourself that you're better informed than you actually are don't doesn't really help much either.
 
OK. You're a clueless, presumptive fool who thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does. In other words, a waste of time.
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Ahh yes, The hallmark of good internet debate.

Now to your questions:

Paid for by....whom? Think about your answer and it's implications for a moment before giving it.

Those parents who can afford the cost of food - which is most of them - buy it. Those who cannot - which are a minority - have it provided, indirectly, by the government via social programs (think food stamps and such.)

Now compare that with private schools, which are not affordable by most parents. Kind of a different situation.
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And you are betraying an ignorance of the history and schooling and the basic principles of economics.

First of all, I have no doubt in the power of charity for those who cannot afford to attend schooling. (Calling me naive on this, as I expect you to do, is less naive then thinking the government will provide a useful, efficient service).

Secondly, why is the cost of private schooling so high? Because a government competes against all other schools at a ZERO marginal cost to the consumers. (In this I mean they have the money taken from them whether they use the schooling or not, hence it does not cost them any more).

No matter how efficient a private school may be, it cannot operate at a zero price. As such, we have schools catering to different types of consumers: government providing zero marginal price to most and the niche producers of private education for those who can afford to remove their children from the poor education provided by the public schools and those who sacrifice all they can to be sure their children get a good education.

Government involvement skews the marketplace.

As a solution, we should begin with vouchers, which would allow a slow increase of private schools to displace the poor public schools. Once the public schools have been replaced, we may then stop stealing money from citizens and allow them to choose the best school to attend.

In this way, we will have a better education system AND those who wish to support the second amendment can send their children to schools that do so and the hoplophobes may send theirs to schools that tell them to run away scared.
 
Wineocerous,

Forgive me, but when your first post in response to something I've said is, "This is just the first of a series of baseless generalizations," and you proceed downward in tone from there without ever actually addressing my arguments, I kinda don't see where you are giving dispassionate, substantive arguments
 
From the Forum Rules
4.) Spamming, trolling, flaming, and personal attacks are prohibited. You can disagree with other members, even vehemently, but it must be done in a well-mannered form. Attack the argument, not the arguer.
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Looks as though Winoceros didn't read this too carefully ... Ed, no need to feed into his insults.

MakAttak, nice to see someone actually proposing solutions to problems rather than simply attempting to paint other members as ignorant.
 
Ahh yes, The hallmark of good internet debate.
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As opposed to selective quoting out of context?

Now to your questions:


Paid for by....whom? Think about your answer and it's implications for a moment before giving it.

Those parents who can afford the cost of food - which is most of them - buy it. Those who cannot - which are a minority - have it provided, indirectly, by the government via social programs (think food stamps and such.)

Now compare that with private schools, which are not affordable by most parents. Kind of a different situation.
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And you are betraying an ignorance of the history and schooling and the basic principles of economics.
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Hypocrisy and irony all in a single line. Impressive.

First of all, I have no doubt in the power of charity for those who cannot afford to attend schooling. (Calling me naive on this, as I expect you to do
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The pre-emptive "I just know you'll say 'X'" attack. Another impressive ploy in the arsenal of the chronically dishonest.

, is less naive then thinking the government will provide a useful, efficient service).
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Efficient? Generally not. But useful? Public education has proven quite useful everywhere in the world in which it is employed. Which is everywhere in the 1st world.

Secondly, why is the cost of private schooling so high? Because a government competes against all other schools at a ZERO marginal cost to the consumers. (In this I mean they have the money taken from them whether they use the schooling or not, hence it does not cost them any more).
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Right. Meaning that the cost of primary and secondary education is spread over the entire tax-paying public.

No matter how efficient a private school may be, it cannot operate at a zero price. As such, we have schools catering to different types of consumers: government providing zero marginal price to most and the niche producers of private education for those who can afford to remove their children from the poor education provided by the public schools and those who sacrifice all they can to be sure their children get a good education.

Government involvement skews the marketplace.

As a solution, we should begin with vouchers, which would allow a slow increase of private schools to displace the poor public schools. Once the public schools have been replaced, we may then stop stealing money from citizens and allow them to choose the best school to attend.
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Uhhh....wait. You seem to have missed a step. Namely, the part where those who cannot afford private school now - whatever the cost...which you agree cannot be $0...are suddenly going to be able to do so simply because public schools have been eliminated. Where does the funding for their childrens' educations come from in your scenario? Or are you claiming that private schools are going to begin operating on a pro bono basis?

In this way, we will have a better education system AND those who wish to support the second amendment can send their children to schools that do so and the hoplophobes may send theirs to schools that tell them to run away scared.
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What about those who have opted to raise children bright enough to not blindly swallow every bit of propaganda they run across in school? Don't leave us out of your equation.
 
Forgive me, but when your first post in response to something I've said is, "This is just the first of a series of baseless generalizations,"
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Which is a dispassionate statement of fact....not an ad hominem. Nice try.

and you proceed downward in tone from there without ever actually addressing my arguments
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Try actually reading my posts. I address your arguments quite directly and substantively. Pretending otherwise doesn't alter reality.
 
And now for something completely different :D

Why have we not heard from the original poster?

Oh, just to add a bit of sauce to the arguement between Ed and Wine;

I, too, had a taxpayer funded secondary education and, to be honest, I was never really impressed with the mastery of many instructors in their chosen area of "expertise". I learned more by just reading text books and making regular trips to the library. Essentially, I taught myself through high school. Pretty much did that through college, too. What was being taught was never really enough, you know?
 
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