Daughter's school

[Ed Ames]

Not a single one of you know if this story is true or not.

According to the story someone was "expelled" by a teacher. Teachers cannot expel students. This raises a major red flag and that's just the first sentence.

I'll accept that there may be something more to this story... if so it just needs to be presented. No such facts have been presented. Short of that... the facts simply don't check.

 

[BruceRDucer]

Is this the new norm in schools or is this out of the ordinary?

"Is this the new norm in schools or is this out of the ordinary?"---Old Soldier

Hey Old Soldier, God bless you man, and your daughter too.

Typical? Well, as far as I am concerned, it is typical. I've heard nutty stories like this for years.

In this case, it is the individual teacher that is irrational.

If it were me, I'd like to fight them just to show their idiocy to the world. I would focus upon drawing the teacher out with the useage of the word "EVIL". Then I'd arrange to quote the definition back to them and the school board and the news media with great frequency.

In fact, I pulled my children from the public system when the boys were first and third graders. The issue at that time was a violence problem, and I had read John Taylor Gatto's book about the dumbing down.

My real objection to public schooling though, isn't the issue of my personal experience through my kids. It's just the fact that the QUALITY isn't there.

I homeschooled mine, but I'd choose a good private school if I had it to do all over.

But work it out according to your own conscience. You've really got a savvy kid.

 

[357WheelGun]

Not a single one of you know if this story is true or not. Your all assuming it's not.

Don't sit here and try and defend assumptions.

When a story is linked about a shooting you all say "there isn't enough information, let's not assume anything" yet you all assume something here and then cannibalize one of your own.

I've just invented a perpetual motion machine.

You don't "know" that what I just said above is false. Every law of thermodynamics says that what I said has to be false, but every physical law also used to say that light traveled through "luminiferous ether" too, so that's not sufficient for you to "know" that my perpetual motion machine doesn't exist. However, the probability that my perpetual motion machine exists is about the same as the probability that every particle of my body will simultaneously disappear and re-appear orbiting Pluto via quantum tunneling.

Likewise, the OP's story fails several rationality checks.
1) The claim that the child was expelled. Teachers simply do not have that authority. Period. It is impossible for a lone teacher to expel a student. Yet that is the claim made by the OP.

2) The claim that the papers were turned in to the local police. Again, ridiculous. Go to your local police station and tell them that you want to give them a list of people who have guns and see what happens.

3) The claim that other students also refused the assignment, but that only the OP's daughter was expelled. Even if the teacher had the ability to expel students (which is simply not true), why would only one student be expelled when there were multiple students who did the same?

If something is a 50/50 shot, I'll tend to give the benefit of the doubt. Hell, I'll give the benefit of the doubt if it's only 30/70. But this is on the order of 0.01/99.99. Outrageous claims require outrageous evidence. The OP's claim lacks the requisite outrageous evidence.

You don't even give someone from your own camp the benefit of the doubt on their story.

"My own camp" is not made of people who own guns. My camp is made up of people who are rational, logical, and seekers of truth. I am not inclined to go easily on someone because their conclusion agrees with mine. If their methods of achieving that conclusion are faulty, then they do not help me, rather, they impugn the conclusion in the eyes of those who disagree with me and make it that much more difficult for me to advance my position.

 

[Regolith]

That is a very strange thing to say.

My grandfather saw fairly extensive combat in WWII. He didn't open up to my father about exactly what he went through until 2001 or so, more than a half century after the fact. Many people who have seen heavy combat are generally not willing to talk about it, probably because it dredges up memories they wish they could forget.

As to the rest of this story: it could be true, it could be bs. It could be somewhere inbetween. It could be that he was so pissed off about what happen he typed out his message in a rush and didn't quite get all of his facts straight. Could be he was misinformed about exactly what happened by one of the parties who was directly involved. There are a lot of variables here, and as such I personally am going to withhold judgment until more information is presented.

 

[littlegator]

The gun issue aside, teachers do not have the power to expel students. Administrators may suspend with cause, but actual expulsion is usually a matter for school boards to address.

Exactly, which makes this thread suspicious to me...

 

[38SnubFan]

I smell some male bovine fecal material here...

There are some definite holes in the story, but it did make me think, since I'm the father of 2 boys (ages 6 and 2).

It makes me realize that our educators have a lot of influence on our children, and that some of that influence may not be completely positive.

My 6-year-old knows I carry a gun full-time. Most of the time, it's on my hip as long as I'm awake. When it's not, it's put in a case where only I know about it.

However, I think I'm going to have to sit down and really stress to him that the fact I own and carry firearms are nobody's business except for those who live in our house; and that he's not to discuss such personal information outside of home - and this includes school, no matter how much a teacher or educational administrator pries for that information.

Another problem lies that our children trust our teachers, and trust them to obey any question or request they make. Even as young as he is, I really need to stress, hope, and pray that he has learned some ability to make decisions on what's discussed for himself.

Just my $.02 on this one. If this story is true, then our public education system has REALLY fallen from grace.

-38SnubFan

 

[Matthaios]

Now that's funny. Not a single one of you know if this story is true or not. Your all assuming it's not.

Don't sit here and try and defend assumptions.

When a story is linked about a shooting you all say "there isn't enough information, let's not assume anything" yet you all assume something here and then cannibalize one of your own.

Again, hypocrisy.

You don't even give someone from your own camp the benefit of the doubt on their story.

I am part of a secret government program to colonize Pluto. I am currently writing my post from the secret base our government has on Pluto. Because I am in your "camp", my story should be presumed true until it is proven false.

Of course, we all know that there is no secret government base on Pluto, and as such I am not posting from there. However, according to what you are saying all gun owners must believe that there is a secret government base on Pluto, and that I am stationed on it. See how we run into this problem of having to disprove a claim, as opposed to the maker of the claim having to prove it? Generally, he who makes a claim is required to support it. The more extraordinary a claim, the more extraordinary the evidence must be to support it. I'm not saying that every claim made in a casual interaction with someone needs to be proven, but when we're talking about something with potentially huge consequences or something that needs to be correct before any action is taken, it's a good idea to err on the side of caution.

In addition to all of this, the original post is full of things that make it appear to be less than wholly accurate. It is possible that the OP is simply mistaken, or it is possible that he is exaggerating. It is still yet further possible that he is lying outright. Either way, based on how the world works, it is highly unlikely that the OP's post is wholly accurate, for whatever reason.

Don't you think it would be a good idea to assume that the post is not accurate at this point in time, since all of the evidence suggests it? Obviously, when (if) further evidence is presented that supports the OP's case we should take that into account, but until then we need to evaluate it on its own merits.

 

[Kim]

I think the teacher is irrational and dangerous. She is has a psych problem and does NOT need to be in a school situation. I mean it somethng is wrong with her.

 

[oldsoldier]

First, I want to thank all for their comments good, bad or indifferent. Second, at 10:30 tomarrow morning, we have a meeting at the board of education about this. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

 

[Eightball]

You should be proud of your daughter, demand that teacher gets fired for the intrusion of privacy (saying "this could get the children hurt, them searching for guns" could be counterproductive--negative reinforcement), and file a police report.

And record your next meeting with the principle.

Though, honestly, this would be a perfect reason to 1. Buy your daughter a firearm to celebrate her intelligence. 2. Switch her to a private school in your area for the same reason.

 

[RiflemanTripleEight]

Well I'm glad to see at least some people don't beleive everything they read...

 

[lanternlad1]

"I am part of a secret government program to colonize Pluto. I am currently writing my post from the secret base our government has on Pluto. Because I am in your "camp", my story should be presumed true until it is proven false.

Of course, we all know that there is no secret government base on Pluto, and as such I am not posting from there. However, according to what you are saying all gun owners must believe that there is a secret government base on Pluto, and that I am stationed on it. See how we run into this problem of having to disprove a claim, as opposed to the maker of the claim having to prove it? Generally, he who makes a claim is required to support it. The more extraordinary a claim, the more extraordinary the evidence must be to support it. I'm not saying that every claim made in a casual interaction with someone needs to be proven, but when we're talking about something with potentially huge consequences or something that needs to be correct before any action is taken, it's a good idea to err on the side of caution.

In addition to all of this, the original post is full of things that make it appear to be less than wholly accurate. It is possible that the OP is simply mistaken, or it is possible that he is exaggerating. It is still yet further possible that he is lying outright. Either way, based on how the world works, it is highly unlikely that the OP's post is wholly accurate, for whatever reason.

Don't you think it would be a good idea to assume that the post is not accurate at this point in time, since all of the evidence suggests it? Obviously, when (if) further evidence is presented that supports the OP's case we should take that into account, but until then we need to evaluate it on its own merits."

You prove XDKing's point. We don't need anti's to divide us, we do just fine by ourselves, thank you very much. I have seen multiple posts here where instead of trying to understand, or at least just let the poor OP rant, y'all descend like a pack of hyenas and rend in twain. What does it REALLY matter to you if this post is or is not real? Stranger things that this have happened, and will happen (a girl expelled in Ocala for using a plastic knife comes to mind).
Thinking for yourselves is fine, going High Road is fine, but at least try to maintain a sense of unity. Any anti with a lick of sense can troll this board, but they don't have to. We do that job for them.

 

[Ed Ames]

I understand the desire for unity. Unity is a very nice thing at times. However, when unity is used to justify hypocricy you aren't making yourself stronger... you are making yourself vulnerable to manipulation.

Facts are facts. The girl in Ocala wasn't using a plastic knife, she was using a steak knife. Steak knives are, idiotically, clearly against administrative policy and carrying one concealed is arguably criminal in many jurisdictions. Bad policy, bad law, but facts. Teachers cannot expel students.

This isn't devisive. This is real world. If something happened the OP can fill us in on what it was. Until then, all we can go on is the story as presented, which has a lot of holes.

 

[Wineoceros]

Of course, we all know that there is no secret government base on Pluto...

Well, it's not a secret anymore, Mr. Blabbermouth!

 

[Wineoceros]

What does it REALLY matter to you if this post is or is not real?

This "The truth is irrelevant" attitude is really disturbing.

 

[Don Gwinn]

All right, I've been sick for days, and this is the first time I've seen this thread. I read the first page or so, then skipped along to page 5, so I have to ask in all seriousness:
Did OldSoldier ever post any reason to believe this story ever happened?

 

[highorder]

in short, NO.

 

[bluestarlizzard]

we'll have to wait and see. apperently he is gonna post the results of his meeting with the school officials.
i really would like to see an article or a conformation from another parent, before i swollow the hook.

 

[arthurcw]

I'm willing to wait until he posts something about the meeting he said he was having with the board. But, having been a teacher, I'm skeptical and not. I've seen some teachers that rule the roost over useless principals. What they say goes, period. The Principal will not go toe to toe with them on anything.

4 Years in the meat grinder at a VERY WELL THOUGHT OF PRIVATE SCHOOL was all I needed to consider Home Schooling

 

[blutarsky]

Did OldSoldier ever post any reason to believe this story ever happened?

last response from him is post #109 above, where he states:

...Second, at 10:30 tomarrow morning, we have a meeting at the board of education about this. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

i'd imagine if there's anything substantive that comes out of there then we'd hear something soon.

 

[silverlance]

I'm also a school administrator and teacher (as most administrators are/were)

Teachers cannot expel.
Principals cannot expel.
expulsion is a PITA to do.

THAT SAID, there are LOTS of things you can do to a kid that isn't technically expulsion but basically the same thing. One example is what we call "OT", or "Opportunity Transfer". This is where you make the argument that the ENVIRONMENT is hurting the kid, and therefore to PROTECT the kid you have to change his/her environment. Get me?

Granted, every case that I have OT'ed was legit - we didn't make up crap to get a kid kicked out. Personally, I take Dean's Office Referrals and OTs and XPs very seriously - I only do it as a last resort because I feel that such actions essentially mean that the teacher or admin has given up and surrendered the kid to the system.

IF and big IF this story is true the school may be calling it something else and the father thinks it is expulsion. Could be mere suspension for Defiance or Insurordination.

 

[RoadkingLarry]

Of course it would not be possible for him to have mis-spoke and said expel when he should have said suspend...???

 

[MarcusWendt]

NFW!!!!! I'd sue, protest, stalk, Papparazzi that moron teacher until she left AMERICA!!!!

 

[Don Gwinn]

You know, I just looked back at the first post again, and I'm not sure it's totally impossible. It's possible the problem is more in the writing/reading of the original post. Read it over once more:

My youngest daughter, 8 years old, was expelled from school. Her crime? Not doing a class assignment. Here's where it real good. The assignment was what kind of firearms are in your home and WHERE ARE THEY KEPT? My daughter told the teacher that was private information. Daughter was told to do it or be expelled. She took expulsion. I went to the school and met with the principal. We then had the teacher come down to explain her actions. The teacher went into a rant saying weapons were evil, that people who owned them were evil. She then said the assignments that had been completed(several others refused or turned in blank papers) were turned over to the police so that when the next president is in office, they'll order the complete seizure of all firearms! Even the principal was shocked at her attitude. He told me my daughter could come back to school in a different class. Right now, I'm considering all my options for her education. Is this the new norm in schools or is this out of the ordinary?

OK, now notice a few things:

1. He doesn't say she was expelled. He says the teacher threatened her with expulsion and she "took expulsion." That could just be the daughter saying "Fine, expel me." Now, every teacher should know better than to threaten to do something he can't deliver, because it's inevitable that kids will call your bluff. But it's possible that this one was dumb enough to say something like that. Hell, there was a substitute who called kids names in a local district this year. Remember the guy, right after 9/11, who burned an American flag in his classroom? There are dumb teachers and crazy teachers out there.

2. There's no explanation of what the principal thought about the daughter's expulsion. When OldSoldier says the daughter can "come back with a different teacher" it does kind of sound like she missed at least one day of school, but was that because she was expelled? Was it because she went home? Was it just sloppy word choice? We don't know.

3. From the sound of it, I'm sure the teacher got a reaming when the doors closed behind Oldsoldier, but he wouldn't have been privy to that, nor should he be. That teacher, if the incident happened the way Oldsoldier describes it, won't last. They might let her finish the year, or they might not. She's obviously overwhelmed and getting unstable, if the story is accurate. There might be some mental illness surfacing here. There's nobody in the presidential race who's going to dare to order confiscations, for example, no matter who wins. It's almost like she's some kind of paranoid conspiracy theorist, only she thinks she's part of the conspiracy.

4. Oldsoldier answered his own question about whether this is normal or not. Why would the principal be shocked by the norm?
And why even bother saying "even the principal was shocked"? Did you think the principal was going to agree with this teacher that it's her job to gather gun confiscation registries from school children? That seems like the sort of thing that would make just about anybody do a double-take, doesn't it?

 

[bluestarlizzard]

i agree that he could have mispoke, which is why i think another post by oldsoldier is nessasary before believing or denying his situation. i must admit that had i been the OP and had read the post about it being BS i would have made a point to correct the disbelife.