merlinfire
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Anywhere there's people, you may need a gun.
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Do concealed guns belong in stadiums?
- Thread starter olivernelson
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If a cop needs to pull a gun in a stadium, the panic is already underway. Local news this summer had a belligerent drunk at a baseball game. He was so drunk the tazer didn't work, they took him down with nightsticks. Only injury was to the actor, and he didn't feel it for hours.
Cops are pros, they train for these circumstances. They have a variety of options they use in preference to firearms in that circumstance. Noone is saying you can't protect yourself, I would strongly suggest you take stock of how you protect yourself, and prepare accordingly.
I personally have a walking stick/cane I carry in places where I deem a firearm is not appropriate. Never raised an eyebrow, and it's a very effective weapon at close quarters. I also have defense sprays and knives, and carry them either singly or in combination, depending on the circumstances. I take my personal defense seriously, and there's a lot more to it that just tucking a pistol into an IWB holster.
Sorry if my attitude upsets your tummy, try some Pepto Bismol, you'll feel better in no time.
The panic issue is the biggest thing for me. Very few places are as densely populated as a football stadium. I cannot imagine a realistic situation where I would feel comfortable shooting a gun in such an environment
If I shoot first I cause a panic. If I shoot after the first shot I am shooting into a panicked crowd
My life is not worth killing innocent people. Bury me first
For me carrying is about more than carrying. I am not bringing a gun unless I am willing to use it. Some people seem to be more concerned with keeping a gun on their hip than they do in actually using it.
Weather or not it should be legal. I guess it should. I don't like infringement laws. But because something is legal doesn't make it the responsible choice.
Make it legal but if someone cuts your throat with a beer bottle and you shoot him and create a panic where innocent people get killed you should be charged with murder
If I shoot first I cause a panic. If I shoot after the first shot I am shooting into a panicked crowd
My life is not worth killing innocent people. Bury me first
For me carrying is about more than carrying. I am not bringing a gun unless I am willing to use it. Some people seem to be more concerned with keeping a gun on their hip than they do in actually using it.
Weather or not it should be legal. I guess it should. I don't like infringement laws. But because something is legal doesn't make it the responsible choice.
Make it legal but if someone cuts your throat with a beer bottle and you shoot him and create a panic where innocent people get killed you should be charged with murder
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Guillermo
member
I cannot think of a situation where a cop should be armed and I shouldn't.
As to the silly premise about cops and their "array" of options...that is not to protect themselves. They have the responsibility to look for trouble. I am concerned with protecting myself.
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It seems appropriate when contemplating unarmed people, trapped in a concrete arena.
As to the silly premise about cops and their "array" of options...that is not to protect themselves. They have the responsibility to look for trouble. I am concerned with protecting myself.
Anti freedom people always churns the belly but I do thank you for the suggestion and well wishes for gastrointestinal peace. I will respectively go another direction. I think I will pop a cork on some Severed Head Red.
http://www.spellwine.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=SWSHRED06
It seems appropriate when contemplating unarmed people, trapped in a concrete arena.
Lots of anti freedom people of gun message boards?? That's a new one to me.
I am concerned with protecting myself but I would rather die than cause the death of innocent people. I could not live a happy life knowing I did that. If that make me Anti freedom to some then so be it. But being raised a good southern Christian I like to call it pro honorable
On a side note I read a study that using over reacting highly embellished vocabulary causes stomach problems.
I am concerned with protecting myself but I would rather die than cause the death of innocent people. I could not live a happy life knowing I did that. If that make me Anti freedom to some then so be it. But being raised a good southern Christian I like to call it pro honorable
On a side note I read a study that using over reacting highly embellished vocabulary causes stomach problems.
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Exeter,
Cops carry guns too. They somehow muster enough intelligence to know not to use their firearm in certain situations. Are you saying that a legally armed citizen doesn't somehow possess that same intelligence?
Is it you who doubts your ability to make the right decision in a crowded venue therefore you assume that all other citizens lack that ability as well? Have you ever carried your concealed weapon into a crowded mall or restaurant?
I think you grossly underestimate the strong desire that law abiding gun owners have to avoid doing something stupid with their firearm.
it has nothing to do with discipline or knowledge. If you read all my post you would know I attend a lot of college football games so I know the environment very well. I have zero use for a firearm in a football stadium. Zero use. That has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge or discipline.
I have never carried my fishing rod to a mall parking lot either. It is not because I am not knowledgable with a Abu Garcia it is because I don't plan on fishing from my car.
As matter of fact I take pride in only carrying in place I have a use for. At this moment the ONLY place I feel I have no use for one is a football stadium.
Again I pride myself on not carrying just to say I am carrying. Why carry a
firearm to a place I an not willin to use it at?
Would it make me cooler? For you to suggest I
am not disciplined to carry means you have not read my post on this thread
I got no problem with it being legal to carry in a stadium. I see no use for it though and would choose not to. If you do that is fine I do believe it is your right to. Just consider the consequences of using one in that environment.
It is hard enough leaving the stadium in an ordeally fashion with my three year old.
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I tried to make it clear that I have been responding to the original question in this thread, concealed guns in stadiums. Even a crowded mall or restaurant doesn't come close to packing people in like a stadium. The former two also are unrestricted access and have a low security presence.
Many of the posters objecting to my posts seem to be advocating opening up stadiums (I believe one poster wanted to boycott the NFL until they stop banning firearms.) The issue I have with that attitude is it doesn't open the stadiums to just law abiding gun owners, who, I agree, have an exceptionally good track record and are not the problem. If you stop the security checks, you lose the ability to control the non-law abiding, and you are in a venue where the ability of law abiding gun owners to protect themselves without endangering others is severely inhibited. Put another way, someone was worried about drunken Bubba with a broken bottle... will letting drunken Bubba bring in his unpermitted gun make you safer?
And before hysteria sits in and people start screaming 'Police State, then! Metal detectors on every corner!' I said clearly earlier that rights and responsibilities involves balance... and now I'll bring up the c-word, compromise ( argh, gasp, sounds of retching.) I can't really think of another circumstance that has the same unique combination of factors as a stadium. Treating a packed stadium differently doesn't open up a slippery slope or herald the Beginning Of The End.
BTW, cops and armed citizens is an apples and oranges comparison. Cops are trained to a degree citizens are not, and they live it every day, gaining experience that private citizens do not have. The cops are at the stadium watching for trouble. You are there to watch a game. I will reiterate, a stadium is a unique situation, unique enough that I don't have a problem with letting the pros handle security. Malls, restaurants, completely different situation.
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That's right. A regular ole' citizen isn't a cop and isn't tasked with the duties of a cop so that citizen doesn't need the same training as a cop. All that citizen needs to know is when and when not to use his/her firearm for self defense.
What exactly makes a crowded stadium any different than a crowded mall, restaurant, park, etc.?
A lot actually. Take the game I was at this Thursday night. (MSU vs LSU) the section my family sits in holds over 7,500 people. (56k+ in the whole stadium) It had more than capacity in that section.
There are 10 ramps leading into the seating area. This ramps are less than 10 feet wide.
Thats over 750 people ramp. This is in the upper deck. There are 2 larger ramps (30 or so feet across) and 2 elevators leading to the bottom.
The game was close and most people stayed to the end. It takes a long time for everyone to file out of the stadium when everyone is in an orderaly fashion. It takes me evry bit of 20 minutes to get from my seats to the outside gate of the stadium. And that is going as fast as I possibly can because we lose more than we win and I am not in a joyous lingering mood!
At this point I have a 10 min walk through a family enviroment that I have never been threatened in 30 years to get to my truck. In my truck is either a 9mm or a 357 for the drive home.People would get hurt if a firearm was discharged in this stadium just from the panic that it would create.
This is my point. Stadiums are unlike any enviroment that I am aware of (I am sure there are others but I can't come up with one now).
I am not for making it illegal to carry in one but I do think it is pointless and is actually irresponsible to do so. If you are not going to use why carry it? At the very least the guy sitting next to me might spill his soda on my lap and now I have a sticky gun. At the worst I could be injured in a panic situation and my fireare taken from me if I am knocked unconciences. I honestly think a stadium enviroment would be more suitible for a stun gun or taser. (or a gun with a silencer
). Trust me a stadium is a LOT different than a mall, resturant, or park
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First part of my post. Population density, control of access from the outside, and security presence. In a stadium, you have 50,000 to 80,000 people seated as densely as on an airliner. Access is through clearly defined points where checks for restricted items can be easily done. Security presence is high and there is a high proportion of professional LEO. Not the same as a mall, park, or restaurant.
Looks good, I salute your choice, sir. My palate, alas, in less sophisticated: New Castle Brown.
NavyLCDR
member
As Sam1911 has pointed out so eloquently....
In states that don't require licenses to carry firearms concealed or openly - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that don't require training to obtain a concealed permit/license - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow firearms in bars - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow people to consume alcohol while carrying a firearm - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow 18 year olds to carry firearms - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow people to carry firearms in stadiums - there is no blood running in the streets.
Is there a pattern here?
To me, this whole discussion about where a person should be able to possess a gun would be like car keys. People get injured/killed by drunk drivers every year... so we should make it illegal to drink alcohol and be in possession of car keys, right? Or we should make it illegal to possess car keys in any place that serves alcohol, including stadiums, right?
In states that don't require licenses to carry firearms concealed or openly - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that don't require training to obtain a concealed permit/license - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow firearms in bars - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow people to consume alcohol while carrying a firearm - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow 18 year olds to carry firearms - there is no blood running in the streets.
In states that allow people to carry firearms in stadiums - there is no blood running in the streets.
Is there a pattern here?
To me, this whole discussion about where a person should be able to possess a gun would be like car keys. People get injured/killed by drunk drivers every year... so we should make it illegal to drink alcohol and be in possession of car keys, right? Or we should make it illegal to possess car keys in any place that serves alcohol, including stadiums, right?
harrygunner
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After the Virginia Tech attack, I did what physicists do and estimated the number of people that would have been legally carrying on campus if it were allowed.
I came up with at least twenty.
I considered the 9000 people on campus, the percentage of CCW holders in Virginia, number of people between the ages of 21 and 65, the probability of wanting a permit for people under and over the age of 40, the percentage of people on campus old enough to apply for a permit and percentage of permit holders that would actually have a gun.
No way to guess who many were near the building or how they would have handled themselves.
It would nearly scale. A stadium with 80,000 people (but with a different age mix) could have a couple of hundred CCW holders carrying.
I came up with at least twenty.
I considered the 9000 people on campus, the percentage of CCW holders in Virginia, number of people between the ages of 21 and 65, the probability of wanting a permit for people under and over the age of 40, the percentage of people on campus old enough to apply for a permit and percentage of permit holders that would actually have a gun.
No way to guess who many were near the building or how they would have handled themselves.
It would nearly scale. A stadium with 80,000 people (but with a different age mix) could have a couple of hundred CCW holders carrying.
It doesn't, any more than having the gun guarantees your safety. There are no absolutes in life, you are always vulnerable to something. Fact. Anything else is an illusion. The stance I am taking is that in a stadium environment, you have to balance your feeling of personal safety with the potential collateral damage you can cause should you exercise that particular option. The balance I see is: gain in additional personal security from having a firearm in a stadium, very minimal. Potential for harm to innocents should weapon be deployed, extremely high.
I don't really buy your analogy. It's true from the angle that car keys are not a problem to a drunk. They are a problem (a very big problem) if they are deployed. In that case, a drunk behind the wheel is an immediate menace to public safety and subject to arrest anywhere in the country. Similarly a concealed firearm that stays concealed is not a problem anywhere. It is also not protecting you. You may feel more protected, but in point of fact, a firearm can only protect you when it is deployed. Deploy the firearm in an environment as crowded as a stadium, and you inherit a huge number of adverse outcomes, 'way beyond the immediate threat to your person.
I'll say again, a stadium is a unique environment. The potential threats to your person are much lower, the number of alternative ways to protect yourself are much greater, and the potential liabilities of a firearm in that environment are many orders of magnitude greater than you will have almost anywhere else. The attitude of 'I'm going to protect myself at all costs and I don't care how many people around me are killed or injured when I do it' falls rather short of the standard I have set for myself for responsible gun ownership.
I don't have a problem if the stadium owner opens the gates and does no weapons check. It's his right to make that decision. On the other hand, I can also see if he chooses to not allow weapons, and I respect his right to make that decision, too.
Guillermo
member
nothing wrong with that fine brew. In the cooler months I enjoy those as well.
now if you would just embrace the concept that we CCLs are more not a problem...in fact we are less likely to cause a problem than policemen that can go virtually anywhere with a plethura of weapons.
(See post 140)
Never said CCLs were a problem, only said a firearm was not a good choice for a stadium. Too much potential for collateral damage for me, you may feel differently, and I'm ok with that. In the case where trouble erupts in a crowded stadium I'd rather leave it to the police to do violence on my behalf... it is, after all, their job to seek out trouble, and deal with it.
But we can agree to disagree on that point, because we both acknowledge that the potential for a problem is extremely low in any event. I'm certainly not going to avoid a stadium that permits concealed carry, and I'm not going to avoid one that does a weapons screen. And I'll certainly respect your right to make your own decision.
That said, looking forward to peaceful Sunday afternoon, where the only mayhem is on the field.
Cheers.
Guillermo
member
so I should not carry because the instance of violence is low?
what about driving to and from the stadium?
your method has my gun vulnerable to smash-and-grab or me unarmed.
we all have thought about "shoot/don't shoot" scenarios. u should trust us to make that decision.
what about driving to and from the stadium?
your method has my gun vulnerable to smash-and-grab or me unarmed.
we all have thought about "shoot/don't shoot" scenarios. u should trust us to make that decision.
Guillermo
member
actually we didn't agree that the instance of violence is low...I merely accepted the premise for the point of discussion.
I guess I need to work on my reading comprehension because I don't glean anything concerning travel to and fro or leaving a weapon in a car. Or for that matter, that any reason why I should not be allowed to carry.
I guess I need to work on my reading comprehension because I don't glean anything concerning travel to and fro or leaving a weapon in a car. Or for that matter, that any reason why I should not be allowed to carry.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Let me add to that -- people who lack the discipline to effectively and safely use a firearm shouldn't project their inadequacies onto the rest of us.
I am reminded of a passenger on a military flight who said we shouldn't have parachutes, because "I could never jump."
My response to that was, "I can. So if anything goes wrong, I'm going out that door, and you can enjoy the ride down."
A stadium environment? what's that? How's that different from you carrying a gun in any other crowded environment? ie; a crowded mall, restaurant, park, concert, etc.? And don't give me that same tired old argument about security, access points and LEOs being present. That 's in place to satisfy liability requirements, not for your personal safety.
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