Full Metal Jackets vs. Hollow Points

[HoosierQ]

OK. Obviously FMJ has a couple of drawbacks for personal protection and HD, over-penetration (depending on the caliber) and the whole lack of expansion / wound cavity thing. For the sake of discussion, let's kind of leave .45 ACP out of the mix (or not, up to you) because an awful lot of people think that 230 grain FMJs pack a wallop.

The gun ignorant folks think of hollow points as "cop killers", think they are more powerful, shoot through cars, you name it.

So let's say you are armed lawfully and the SHTF in your little world and you have to use deadly force. Would the press, the prosecutor, heck...the jury, heaven forbid, be more likely to look favorably on the person using a) good old fashioned FMJs, the same stuff allowed by the Geneva convention, the same stuff the boys use in combat, the cheap target ammo you get at Wally's (even though the gun savy know it may over penetrate), or b) someone using carefully engineered anti-personnel rounds, "designed to kill effectively", which the person had to seek out and pay extra for etc (even though the gun savy know they are designed not to over penetrate).

Given that a lot of "them" know nothing about firearms and ammo, would "they" make a distinction when the smoke cleared? My scenario assumes that nobody other than a violent criminal and an armed law abiding citizen were in any way invovled in my scenario.

What do you think?

 

[RKBABob]

You can make any ammo sound evil... some ignorant person is sure to fall for it.

Would the press, the prosecutor, heck...the jury, heaven forbid, be more likely to look favorably on the person using a) good old fashioned FMJs, the same stuff allowed by the Geneva convention, the same stuff the boys use in combat...

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using Full Metal Jacket, MILITARY grade ammunition!

carefully engineered anti-personnel rounds, "designed to kill effectively", which the person had to seek out and pay extra for

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using ammunition so deadly, that its forbidden for even the MILITARY to use!


Lead Round Nose:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using bullets made out of a substance so toxic, that its actually regulated by the EPA!


Lead Wadcutters:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using specialiazed ammunition designed to cut wads out of his intended victim!


Rat Shot:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using a special ammunition that's designed to spray lead pellets in all directions, creating a rain of death anywhere the gun was pointed!


Blanks:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using ammunition designed to scare and frighten his victims!


Rubber Bullets:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using the same style of ammunition used to suppress political dissidents living under a communist dictatorship!


Cowboy Loads:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the defendant was using something called a cowboy load, in an attempt to re-create the wild west right in your back yard!

 

[HoosierQ]

Gee Bob...and I was being so serious too...but I definitely get it.

 

[Prepster]

If it's commonly available commercial ammunition that doesn't have a website featuring anti-terrorist agents, you're probably fine, although the above prosecutorial scenarios are certainly possible. There was a big discussion a while back about reloads having a similar effect, I'm sure you could find it if you're interested.

A good shoot is a good shoot, and hopefully a jury of your peers would have the mental faculties to determine valid information from shock material.

 

[SHusky57]

Call your local sheriff and use the same bullets they use if possible.

Then you can always say that you only used what your local law enforcement had deemed to be the best round for personal protection.

But for the most part, you just need a good lawyer who knows his stuff, a sheriff/chief of police who supports citizens right to self defense, and a district attorney who believes in the rights of citizens to protect themselves.

 

[cbrgator]

Hoosier, barring special circumstances such as the criminal is wearing body armor, JHP's are far more effective than FMJ's. That being said, you will want to use whatever will most ensure your safety against an attacker, which is JHP. You should be much more concerned for your life than what a prosecutor/jury thinks. It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

 

[SHusky57]

Actually, if I was tried and judged guilty by 12 and had to endure years of gang rape in prison showers.... I would rather be dead.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Full metal jackets might be a good option if a) you are a good shot and b) during winter months when the BG might have on layers of clothing and more than likely a thick, heavy coat (where I live in the north).

I suppose some of that clothing would effectively "clog" the hollow point, so you really have what amounts to a FMJ anyway! When I retrieved some of my 500 Magnum hollow points from the berm at the range, I found that some actually did not open up due to the hollow (point) being filled with DIRT!

I'm almost tempted to go with FMJ's (my "carry" gun seems to like them best so far out of the two loads I've tried)!

 

[mbt2001]

This whole flap over bullets makes me want to ... I don't care if the someone is using rocketpropelled Klingon Plasma death ray bullets.

Was

He

Justified

In

Firing?

If yes, then case closed. If no then case closed. WE are ALL potential jurors.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Was

He

Justified

In

Firing?

The object is to NEVER pull the gun - much less USE IT - unless it is either your life or the bad guy's.

PERIOD.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

if the H-P does'nt expand then you have the 'penetration' of a FMJ- right?
I've tryed cutting an 'X' into a cast lead slug useing a jeweler's saw - you need to see what that does to wet phone books.
what would it do to a human target? I don't know but a heart shot with it and dead is dead.
first make sure it's a good shoot.

 

[BADUNAME37]

if the H-P does'nt expand then you have the 'penetration' of a FMJ- right?

Technically speaking, correct.

 

[BADUNAME37]

Marlin 45 carbine

Was that a Semi-wadcutter, or hollow point you cut the X into?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The problem is, there can be two trials. You can be aquitted at a criminal trial, and still lose a civil trial (look at O.J. Simpson.) It is in the civil trial where the type of ammuniton you used will be used against you.

Some states have laws that preclude "wrongful death" lawsuits if you are not criminally prosecuted -- and we should all push for such laws in our states.

 

[makarovnik]

For gun play on the road I prefer the FMJ. In a 7.62 x 25 it goes in one door and out the other. Watch out for innocent bystanders though.

 

[BlindJustice]

I agree in maiking sure it's a good shoot.
I'll leave the what-ifs post-shoot to others.

FMJ vs JHPs - A timely Range session yesterday
---------------------------------

A friend and I went out in the country to a mutual friends
house and acreage. I live in the Palouse - rolling dry land
wheat country. We took 8 12+ inch diameter pumpkins I had
picked up the day after halloween when they went to half price.
My friend had save up about the same number of 1 gallon plastic
milk jugs. We arrived at JT's - we took a plug out of the top of
the pumpkins - filled em with water - replaced the plug and duct
taped them. THe gallon jugs were filled with water and the lids
were duct taped securely so they wouldn't pop the top

So, on top of 2 foot high split logs a pumpkin was placed in front
of a water jug.

S&W 625 5" Bbl.
WWB 230 gr. FMJ - just punched a hole through both
WWB 230 gr. JHP - looked like there was some expansion
since the exit hole of the pumpkin was about an inch in diameter
the gal. jug, had a bit bigger exit hole
.45 Auto Rim 225 Gr. Barnes XPB HP 900+ FPS
About the same exit hole but the gal jug had a bigger hole on
exit of the bullet
.45 ACP Double Tap
200 gr. Speer Gold Dot @ 1,125 FPS
About a 2" hole exiting the pumpkin
and the gal jug had a torn hole, but the
plastic also cracked so it was a good 2.5"
plus irregular, and the most water spray

CZ 75B - didn't have any FMJ
just WWB 147 gr. JHPs along with Double Tap
147 gr. Speer Gold Dot JHP @ 1135 fps.

Well smaller holes overall but a good diffference
tween the WWB and Gold DOts with the extra 150 FPS

No bullets recovered - I think next time I'll
try getting a box of sand as a backstop to sift
through ALso I forgot to try the 200 gr. Leadhead
SWC @ 1,025 FPS.... Wind Chill. We decided to
do something along the same lines in the spring JT's
wife had his digital camera.

Oh, and I got to try a Walther PPK/S .380 ACP
with Mag Tech JHPs - definietly down on power
compared to a 9mm LUger. and the little pocket pistl
didn't draw blood on the web of my hand but after only
1 mag the web of my hand knew it.

YFMJ & JHPsMV

Randall

 

[Deanimator]

Which do you think would be a bigger problem:

You put an assailant out of action with a 9mm JHP to the center of mass. It stays in his body.

You shoot an assailant with a 9mm FMJ center of mass. The bullet does a through and through and kills a 3 year old a half block away. Your assailant continues the fight maiming or killing you.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

When you fire a shot, you are using deadly force -- and you are going to have to justify that to men who really don't want to believe you.

If you shot to warn, to wound, or to scare, you were still using deadly force, but you have admitted it wasn't necessary. You go to jail.

 

[lechiffre]

WE are ALL potential jurors.

i don't think any of us are.

 

[Steve C]

The old axiom "Its better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is my guiding principle.

JHP's give me and my family a better chance to survive a deadly encounter with an opponent intent of our death so that's what I use. Most of the ammo I carry is LEO surplus so the excessively deadly argument would be moot. I carry this type of ammo because its some of the most effective defense ammo you can use.

 

[Matthew Courtney]

People who worry too much what others think rarely take enough responsibility for their own safety to carry a gun. Load your gun with what you think will work the best for your purposes. Worrying about what others think gets people killed.

 

[Rob G]

I don't care if the someone is using rocketpropelled Klingon Plasma death ray bullets.

Do they make those in .45 ACP?

But seriously, you should use what's most effective. I think in another discussion about this not too long ago someone pointed out that there's only been like one or two cases where ammo selection was used to against the defendant. So I'd say, shoot what your gun will feed reliably, and that you think best fits your needs.

 

[skeptiq]

I recently read somewhere that a gentleman with a CCW shot and killed someone and was on trial and was found guilty. After the trial one person on the jury said it was the JHP that made the decision for them to convict.

That being said, I feel it is a valid concern, but when it comes down to my family's safety, I'll gladly take that risk and hire a helluva lawyer if it goes down that road.

 

[cbrgator]

I'd like to see where you read that. Conviction on the grounds of JHP ammo seems weird to me. Link it if can find it again.

 

[mbt2001]

i don't think any of us are.

Maybe I am missing something but I do not know what you are talking about. Are you not a citizen? Have you served on a jury in the last year? Then what is the issue? I get called once every 2 years or so, if I am on a SD shooting jury, then I will only pay attention to one thing. Given the evidence and circumstance, would I have fired?

All this fluff about what bullets is a waste of time and a redherring.