Gun Show sexism

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kd7nqb

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Today my girlfriend and I decided to the gun show at the Portland Expo center. As mentioned in many other threads she shoots and carries regularly and essentially has been shooting to some extent since she was a little kid.

She had not actually been to a gun show before so I thought it would be a cool experience, well it mostly was. However I found it very bothersome the number of individuals (both men and women) who refused to admit that a woman of her age (21) could be knowledgeable about firearms.

Here is just one example

ME: While looking at a Mosin Nagent "Neither one of us have one of these, I should get one for us to use out in the woods"

HER: Pretty sweet but very heavy, I dont think I would like it.

GUY SELLING GUNS: "Ma'am you dont want to start shooting with something like that it will scare you too much and then you will never want to shoot a gun again"

She just seemed a little put off and then said something to the effect that she shoots a lot of rifles pretty often and that .30 carbine was her favorite round.

The guy seemed shocked but then looked at me and said "You take her shooting often?"

At this point her and I just walked away we figured that this was NOT the guy we wanted to do business with anyway.

Additionally, she has been in the market for a 1911 for quite some time for all the usual reasons (Great triggers, classic gun, thin profile for CCW, reliable as all get out) several times when she would walk up to a table and start looking at a gun she would ask me what I thought or if I had shot that model. It became almost predictable that at this point the person running the table would market ME that I show her a Taurus with Pink grips or one of the other "cute" guns. It got to the point that her response was, "I dont shoot cute guns, I shoot .45's"

All in all she could not fall in love with just ANY 1911 she decided to fall in love with a Kimber Pro Covert II. She liked the fit and feel and she liked that it came preinstalled with CTC grips.


All in all I learned 3 things.

1. It bugged me a lot that people would not admit that a young woman could be a gun enthusiast.

2. My girlfriend has an incredibly expensive taste in guns

3. Gun shows are even more fun when I get to spend them with my lady even if it adds stress to the show.

I am especially interested in some of the ladies view on this thread (PAX where are you)
 
The funny thing is, in my experience, most women can outshoot most men. As a former NRA Instructor, I would much rather teach a women to shoot than a man, for the simple reason most women will actually listen to what you say and follow insturctions, while most men take offense to being told how to shoot, even if they never have shot a gun in their life. I guess this is not exactly what you are talking about, but along the same lines. But, yes, many men are condencending toward women shooters.
 
I'm STILL an NRA Instructor and have been for 20 + years and that has always been my experience. Mostly, guys all think that they're an EXPERT in the following three areas: GUNS, CARS, & WOMEN .... all simply BECAUSE they're guys! Of course they're usually wrong on all three counts. That's why we have gun shows, mechanics and computer dating. There is another reason that is biological: Women have better hand/eye coordination which is why they make better pilots. ALSO they have fewer bad habits to unlearn. They weren't raised on Dirty Harry, John Wayne, or those "BAD BOYS," Will Smith & Martin Lawrence. Hollywood, as we all know is spectacularly wrong when it comes to shooting handguns.

Usually in class, the guy is just sort of paying attention with one ear and has his eyes on the clock and keeps asking in a plaintive voice: "When are we going to the range?"

OTOH, SHE is usually a freakin' SPONGE! Always asking questions for clarification. Demanding a dry fire demonstration, asking for critique of stance and grip.... and this is before we've even left for the range. Live fire isn't required from the State of Florida. That's my personal requirement. I guarantee that my student will be able to empty a cylinder or a magazine into the center of mass in a tight group (not the "X" but maybe inside the eight ring and tighter) or their money back.

No surprise, when we finally move to the line, she's READY. I usually make HIM go first. I have a method in my madness, here. I know he's not paid attention I want a score for her HER to defeat. A little bit extra motivation as it were.

Now if you're taking MY ccw class, everybody starts on a .22LR. I don't care if you're a cop or an airborne ranger, you start with the 22. Why? I like to critique technique. Flaws will show up here in stance, grip and trigger squeeze or sight picture resulting in specific types of groups or even looser patterns. They can use my Walther P22 or if it's a real novice my Ruger Super Single Six for the utmost in control.

HE hasn't listened anyway, so I stand there to make sure he keeps the muzzle downrange and isn't UNSAFE in any way. I'll run a large bullseye target with one of those bigger SHOOT-N-SEE sticky targets overlaid on the "X" and hand him the 22. HE usually tries to look all studly and cool as he rattles off six overly fast shots with the predicted result. I'll leave it to your imagination but it usually comes up nothing tighter than the "7" ring. Why do they always look so perplexed? This is the usual answer I get: Well, the SUN was in my eyes. I point out that while that might be possible under other circumstances we seem to be on an INDOOR range. Nope. That's HIS story and he's stickin to it! Typical GUY. I do it all the time with my wife in other areas. I make him have a seat and I motion her to the line.

She's usually like a little newborn colt taking those first shaky steps into a new world. I demonstrate everything (in teaching we call this MODELING) before I have her try. After my shots on a separate smaller shoot-n-see I have placed above the main target, I give HER the 22 and walk her slowly thru the sequence. I maintain an "overwatch" position just behind and to the left so I can nudge her on stance or adjust grip, especially trigger finger placement. Most common stance problem is a hyper arched back so they body is way off balance. Easy to correct especially for an attentive student.

I'll walk her thru the first shot, quietly ticking off the sight picture, breathing pause and smooth trigger squeeze. Wait and see that first one is near or thru the "X" and watch that facial expression just explode with joy! Then I'll talk her thru the the rest of the magazine or cylinder (on the Single Six). Usually that means sight corrections based on hit proximity. If she starts to snatch the trigger or "heel" her grip, I call out shot impacts using the clock method: On the center level at Three O'Clock. Bring it level to the LEFT. and so on. When I'm satisfied that she's safe and properly "in the zone" I'll leave her some loaded mags and go sit down to chat with hubby. About anything BUT his groups. I want her to be secure and to have fun without her instructor looking over her shoulder and making her nervous.

When she's finished with her first round, I'll haul her target back and compare them side by side. Almost 100% of the time when SHE has paid attention to my lesson the difference is night and day. I usually get two defensive answers from HIM: The routine with the SUN or he blames the GUN. So I'll bring him to the line with "ears" and "eyes" and send the target twice the distance his was so I can drill the "X" for two mags. Then I'll hand him my target and say: Well, I can tell you it's NOT the gun!

Then I'll usually lean over and whisper into his ear something about how we both know what just happened just between us guys and why he should now DOTE over his wife's outstanding target shooting and how he should take her out to dinner to celebrate and MAYBE he'll shoot tighter groups ummmm later. That always works, too. It helps a lot when the instructor is (like me) a professional educator. Professionally, I'm at the top of my game at work and it carries over into my recreational activities where I instruct. But that's also the reason why I refuse to become an NRA Training Counselor. That's where the serious money is but since I'm already an educator, my standards for an instructor are going to be impossibly high for anybody NOT already an educator. That's just the way it is. I refuse to let some YAHOO loose on the unsuspecting public unless I rate him fully qualified. That goes for the ccw students, too. That's why I mandate a successful target before I'll let them leave the line.

Oh and I have NEVER had to refund any money! But I have gotten some DANG nice tips from some of my better heeled clients: One guy bought me a S&W M642 in appreciation. I filled out the paperwork on the 4473 and he plunked down the cash, no quibbles. Then we went out to a great lunch. He drove. The Ferrari. WOW.
 
Don't frequent gun shows, but am a frequent buyer at the gun shops. They all know me by name and are always anxious to wait on me because they know I'll probablywalk out with with a gun that I can't live without. My husband and the clerks always have fun when I find something that just says "take me home".:D Gun shows always have those silly signs that says I can't carry, so I don't go. Your girlfriend has good taste in 1911's. I have 3 Kimber .45s, 2 for competition and one for CCW.
 
My wife and 12 year old daughter shoot on a regular basis,my wife shoots just as well as me if not better .They do not tote around the largest guns on the market but certainly open a few sexist eyes when they do shoot.
 
I've very rarely hear any positive comments from women about how they're treated at gun stores or shows. I have no idea why men think a 10 year old boy could shoot a 1911 but a grown woman would be challenged by it.
 
If you think that's bad try being a man going into a knitting store...

It goes both ways.
 
I learnt to knit when I was 10,I also learnt how to sew, iron and clean.I then went into the armed services,I had a head start on the others because they had no idea how to look after one's self.
 
Gun shows always have those silly signs that says I can't carry, so I don't go.
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For some reason I lose the ability to read as I enter gunshows! Here in Florida it's not illegal, it's more of a suggestion! If you're not a total moron (and not looking for holsters for it or anything), Don't Ask, Don't Tell works!
 
Sexism....... don't let it upset you, use it to benefit both of you.

I taught a couple about five years ago, (Basic Pistol, and Pers Prot). He's an average guy, nothing extraordinary. His wife on the other hand causes neck injuries to most any male she passes. She is also an excellent shot, and loves firearms. When they go to gun shows, she will usually wear tops that cause eye strain, and if she leans over to look at a particular firearm, the vendor is at a serious sales disadvantage. This couple has made some outstanding deals at gun shows, simply due to being smarter than the sexist male salesmen.
 
Hell, its just as bad down here in Houston as it is anywhere else...sexism and guns seem to be a barrier that womens advocacy groups need to work on...be good PR for guns, IMO.
 
Maybe it wasn't sexism at all. Maybe it's just what you were looking to get out of the interchange and that is what you walked away with. Being overly sensitive as young people are makes for rough times ahead. The dealers just want your money and could care less which sex gives it to them.

A mosin is a very heavy rifle with a steel butt plate and I have heard alot of men complain about the noise and kick of the rifle. Unless your gal loves pain and noise the mosin isn't for most people.

jim
 
She's 21, and obviously female. I don't think it's unreasonable for a dealer to assume she hasn't had much experience with firearms. Or to assume a 21 year old male hasn't had much either, but the odds are better in the males case.

GUY SELLING GUNS: "Ma'am you dont want to start shooting with something like that it will scare you too much and then you will never want to shoot a gun again"
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Now, if you had quoted him as saying something like, "Now sweetie, that big old Mosin would just scare your pretty little self silly" well that would be a different story.

As for the pink gun. It's AIMED at the female market. Again it hardly seems unreasonable to suggest it. Your GF seems to have handled it better than you did.
 
There are a lot of gun snobs in the world, and they tend to look down on young people. Since my hair turned grey, I get a lot more respect from these people than I did in my twenties, even though I am more demanding due to my past experiences with them. These people give firearms owners a ban reputation.

I agree that women tend to be better shots than men. They have better manual dexterity than men and better hand/eye coordination. In my typing class, back in the Stone Age, women always typed faster and made fewer mistakes than men. Shooting requires similar skills. By the time my son was 16, he thought he was a good shot. My wife went shooting with us one day and humiliated him. She had never shot a rifle before, but if he loaded the rifle and took the safety off, and handed it to her; she was a much better shoot than he was. I had shot handguns with her a couple of times so I was not surprised.
 
The one and only area in my experience where women have more difficulty than men is in working the action of a semiauto pistol or pulling the DA trigger on a revolver. Most who have difficulty can learn to do it when shown the correct technique, but there is a small percentage who still have problems. Patience and careful firearm selection can help, but some folks just can't handle a modern handgun. My wife prefers her single action revolver for that reason, or a DA revolver that she can cock. Other than that, women are better students than men in general.
 
Today my girlfriend and I decided to the gun show at the Portland Expo center. As mentioned in many other threads she shoots and carries regularly and essentially has been shooting to some extent since she was a little kid.
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Marry her! ;)
 
I don't see the big problem. Most women don't shoot or only shoot occasionally. By and large, a woman at a gun show is like a man a knitting show, 99.98% odds say they are along for the ride.
 
Yeah, umm, well, when was the last time you saw a female vendor at the gun show with only other females or by herself... selling real guns? (not toy guns or beat up surplus gear)

I have lost count of the number of gun shows I have been to in many different states around the country and never once have I ever seen a female vendor there by herself selling guns. Not saying it hasn't ever happened.... just saying I have never seen it.

Crazy when you think about it. Because something tells me an all female booth would likely do quite well at the gun show.

Yep, there is a lot of sexism out there. Ever wonder why it is that two of the most powerful anti's in the country are female? Sometimes we are own worst enemy.
 
Gun shows are hectic environments that seem to bring out the jerk in a lot of dealers. Even the guys can probably attest to that.
 
1. It bugged me a lot that people would not admit that a young woman could be a gun enthusiast.
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Would not admit? Doubt it. Surprised? Oh yeah. I don't deny there're a lot of sexist pigs, even among us enlightened gun enthusiasts. Minorities are not drawn to our sport, so when one is encountered as an enthusiast, it is a surprise. Some people have a bit more trouble adjusting to the new information. Some never do.
 
Hi Kd7,

I've had the most trouble in chain sporting goods places. Once, I was trying to get ammunition for my Enfield and the clerk takes one look at the rounds and won't sell them to me. He hands me a box of .380 and tells me I'll have better luck with them. I won't even talk about archery equipment.

Some people are born jerks, they can't help it. It's in their jeans. (spelling intentional) You have one of two options, consider the source and move on or buy enough stock in the company you can fire them.

Selena
 
So you're saying you don't like cute guns with pink grips? Who woulda thought? :D

true on the reverse though. I studied guitar in college and a good set of right hand nails (if you're right handed) is a must for classical style. I've always had thin nails that like to split. So, one day, in a fit of desperation, I went into a nails shop and asked them if they could do just my right hand. Uh, they laughed and I walked out humiliated. Recently someone said to me, "You should try one of those nails shops." :rolleyes:

Wanna see something even funnier? Work on a construction site with all these burly construction guys and say, "Dammit, I just broke a nail!" :what:

:p
 
Once, I was trying to get ammunition for my Enfield and the clerk takes one look at the rounds and won't sell them to me. He hands me a box of .380 and tells me I'll have better luck with them.
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How did it go? :D

Nice to see another officer's wife that shoots Enfield's. That is my wife's favorite gun.
 
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