BridgeWalker
Member
Um, except note that the guy didn't say she wouldn't like being battered by recoil. He said she would be scared, and that she'd never want to shoot again.
Gun Show sexism
- Thread starter kd7nqb
- Start date
- Status
Um, except note that the guy didn't say she wouldn't like being battered by recoil. He said she would be scared, and that she'd never want to shoot again.
Not surprisingly
People have a right to make a living with their millstone. To buy the company and fire people, to take food from their kids mouth seems a bit extreeme because you felt like a minimum wage clerk was sexist. A woman scorned I guessYou may not even know the circumstance of the clerk or gunshow seller to begin with so to assume he is into a craft might be a real stretch. Seems a better path might be to help people along so the next guy doesn't have to suffer.
People don't all have the same common sense at the same time in their lives and we depend on society to help us learn and grow. Now days people feel it isn't their place yet will complain about everyone else. Guess it's time to move on and let you educate yourself.
jim
kd7nqb
Member
Thanks for all the input, I know gun shows have their flaws but they are kinda fun. Also my GF still had a good time too.
Also I think we all agree that Nagents have a recoil that nobody likes but that was only one example.
Anyway it was a powerful reality check for me.
Also I think we all agree that Nagents have a recoil that nobody likes but that was only one example.
Anyway it was a powerful reality check for me.
yesit'sloaded
Member
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,662
That is actually pretty good advice. It is not a starter gun in any way other than price. My girlfriend has shot three inch shells in a twelve gauge and yet will not shoot my Mosin after trying it once. I can't even shoot more than a box from a bench without a recoil pad.
Outlaws
Member
I am not saying you cannot do it. I am saying, be easy on the guy because he is going off the simple fact that most women (extremely high percentage) couldn't.
Now if you come in there looking like a female body builder, by all means, show the guy up if the muscles don't sway his opinion.
BridgeWalker
Member
And if she had walked in there and said "please, sir, do you think I could draw this bow?" You would be right.
But, she didn't. So he was being a jerk.
Last edited:
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
It's not just ladies that get insulted by dealers.
I went to a national gun-show with the intent to buy a really nice Colt SAA .44 Spl. for a shooter.
I had 3 grand cash in my billfold.
I had a dealer tell me I couldn't look at the only one I found that day, because I obviously couldn't afford it!
Another time, my wife & I drove into K.C. to the largest Chevy dealers in the mid-west, intending to buy her a new Corvette for her 50th. birthday. At the time we had a brand new Dodge Ram and a two year old Dakota, both paid for, no bills, & our house paid off, and over 75 grand in the checking account.
One of the Corvette salemen walked by, turned up his nose at us, and suggested the used pick-up trucks were across the street on another lot. :banghead:
Guess I should ditch the old jeans & work shirts and dress better or something!
Bottom line is, some salemen are just too damn stupid & rude to be selling anything.
rcmodel
I went to a national gun-show with the intent to buy a really nice Colt SAA .44 Spl. for a shooter.
I had 3 grand cash in my billfold.
I had a dealer tell me I couldn't look at the only one I found that day, because I obviously couldn't afford it!
Another time, my wife & I drove into K.C. to the largest Chevy dealers in the mid-west, intending to buy her a new Corvette for her 50th. birthday. At the time we had a brand new Dodge Ram and a two year old Dakota, both paid for, no bills, & our house paid off, and over 75 grand in the checking account.
One of the Corvette salemen walked by, turned up his nose at us, and suggested the used pick-up trucks were across the street on another lot. :banghead:
Guess I should ditch the old jeans & work shirts and dress better or something!
Bottom line is, some salemen are just too damn stupid & rude to be selling anything.
rcmodel
LegalAlien
Member
From an auto salesman that used to be a computer geek.
DO NOT judge a book by it's cover. And that applies to all retail situations.
When faced with a couple that are in the process of making a purchasing decision, do not 'belittle' the ability of the female. In many cases, the wife/GF is actually the REAL decision maker.
The quickest way to lose a sale, is to focus your attention on the male half of the couple and ignoring the female.
DO NOT 'pigeon-hole' your customers before you have earned the right to ask for their business.
AND - I am successful at selling cars - I love the interaction with my customers - both male and female - and I refuse to discriminate based on gender.
:banghead:
DO NOT judge a book by it's cover. And that applies to all retail situations.
When faced with a couple that are in the process of making a purchasing decision, do not 'belittle' the ability of the female. In many cases, the wife/GF is actually the REAL decision maker.
The quickest way to lose a sale, is to focus your attention on the male half of the couple and ignoring the female.
DO NOT 'pigeon-hole' your customers before you have earned the right to ask for their business.
AND - I am successful at selling cars - I love the interaction with my customers - both male and female - and I refuse to discriminate based on gender.
:banghead:
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi rcmodel,
I remember one time my Uncle walked into a gunshop near Indianapolis. His jeans were old and rather shabby and his boots were run down and smelled faintly of manure. He was looking at an M1A and the clerk kept trying to steer us over to the next ailse with cheaper rifles. Uncle Lee would ask a question about the M1A and the guy would talk about a cheaper rifle.
After ten minutes of playing with the guy. (And he was playing with him) Uncle Lee went to the guy in the office, pulled the money from cashing his cattle check out of his shirt pocket (figure 12 head @ $800 to $1000 apiece.) and told the guy he was ready to buy the rifle but he couldn't get the clerk to wait on him.
He was insufferable pleased with himself all the way home.
Selena
I remember one time my Uncle walked into a gunshop near Indianapolis. His jeans were old and rather shabby and his boots were run down and smelled faintly of manure. He was looking at an M1A and the clerk kept trying to steer us over to the next ailse with cheaper rifles. Uncle Lee would ask a question about the M1A and the guy would talk about a cheaper rifle.
After ten minutes of playing with the guy. (And he was playing with him) Uncle Lee went to the guy in the office, pulled the money from cashing his cattle check out of his shirt pocket (figure 12 head @ $800 to $1000 apiece.) and told the guy he was ready to buy the rifle but he couldn't get the clerk to wait on him.
He was insufferable pleased with himself all the way home.
Selena
Dang RC, that sounds like me.
It is amazing how many sales people are rude to would be buyers, men and women. I just mozy on away when they look at me like I can't afford what I am looking at. I will pay more at another table than buy from those folks. Sure gets there attention when you start forking over cash to their competitor.
Awesome, good for Uncle Lee.
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Walkalong,
You've never had to ride 130 miles with a man insufferable pleased with himself or you would understand.
Selena
You've never had to ride 130 miles with a man insufferable pleased with himself or you would understand.
Selena
Mannlicher
Member
I am sure that if you went with your gf to the handbag show, or the sewing exposition, you would see the same sort of 'sexism' shown to you.
No big deal. You can only be offended if you allow a total stranger's opinion supersede your own.
No big deal. You can only be offended if you allow a total stranger's opinion supersede your own.
john paul
Member
women's intuition is a wonderful thing! i think that if officer's wife felt like the guy was being rude he probably was. besides the fact, that she sounds like a girl i wouldn't want to argue with!
Officers'Wife
Member
Hi Mannlicher,
Trust me on this, if I could get David to go with me to "Lotions and Notions" he would get plenty of attention. So much if I ever catch him going in there he's in trouble plenty!
Selena
Trust me on this, if I could get David to go with me to "Lotions and Notions" he would get plenty of attention. So much if I ever catch him going in there he's in trouble plenty!
Selena
Regolith
Member
That's how my parent's are. Mom was a manager for a bank, is now working at the county treasurer's. Basically, she controls the money. I've never seen my dad make a big purchase without permission from her.
I've never been in retail, but if I were I would probably get in trouble for being the exact OPPOSITE as the morons related in this thread....
Interesting thread. We've been on vacation all week and out of the house most of it, so I'm just now catching up.
Gun shows are the only place I have *ever* been treated disrespectfully. Well, no....hunting shows, too. The presumption in hunting shows is that I'm along for the ride (and the jewelry displays) and that he's the hunter. Archerandshooter sets them straight every single time, and I must say that MOST, but not all, the vendors are delighted to meet a woman hunter and we get along fine after that. I have had a couple simply look at me like I'd sprouted a second head and go back to talking to A&S. We walk away from tables where that happens
Like it or not, we who are women shooters are in the minority of shooters nationwide. Places that see women frequently (I'm thinking of our local Carter's Country where I shoot all the time) treat women as equals, as a rule. Gun shows, however, are full of vendors who will see you this one time only and who, unfortunately, are more likely to go off their presumptions than not. Myself, I wouldn't have been hugely offended by the comment about the Mosin; the other issue regarding the 1911, though, really was sexist. We've had that happen once or twice (at chain stores, like Selena mentioned) and A&S just chuckles and says "Don't talk to ME; this is HER gun you're talking about." Never had a salesman continue to ignore me after that.
ISTM (and I may need my asbestos suit forthwith) that there's a difference between sexism and ignorance. If you and your girlfriend opened some eyes today regarding young women (and men) knowing about guns, then you cured some ignorance. Ignorance is based on the unawareness that lots of women do shoot and shoot all sorts of different guns...and do it well. Sexism is different and it is based on the assumption that women CANNOT shoot. I really think you ran more into ignorance than sexism, from your description; and that, with a smile and a willingness to talk to folks, you can fix (sometimes).
Springmom
Gun shows are the only place I have *ever* been treated disrespectfully. Well, no....hunting shows, too. The presumption in hunting shows is that I'm along for the ride (and the jewelry displays) and that he's the hunter. Archerandshooter sets them straight every single time, and I must say that MOST, but not all, the vendors are delighted to meet a woman hunter and we get along fine after that. I have had a couple simply look at me like I'd sprouted a second head and go back to talking to A&S. We walk away from tables where that happens
Like it or not, we who are women shooters are in the minority of shooters nationwide. Places that see women frequently (I'm thinking of our local Carter's Country where I shoot all the time) treat women as equals, as a rule. Gun shows, however, are full of vendors who will see you this one time only and who, unfortunately, are more likely to go off their presumptions than not. Myself, I wouldn't have been hugely offended by the comment about the Mosin; the other issue regarding the 1911, though, really was sexist. We've had that happen once or twice (at chain stores, like Selena mentioned) and A&S just chuckles and says "Don't talk to ME; this is HER gun you're talking about." Never had a salesman continue to ignore me after that.
ISTM (and I may need my asbestos suit forthwith) that there's a difference between sexism and ignorance. If you and your girlfriend opened some eyes today regarding young women (and men) knowing about guns, then you cured some ignorance. Ignorance is based on the unawareness that lots of women do shoot and shoot all sorts of different guns...and do it well. Sexism is different and it is based on the assumption that women CANNOT shoot. I really think you ran more into ignorance than sexism, from your description; and that, with a smile and a willingness to talk to folks, you can fix (sometimes).
Springmom
I don't remember my first gunshow but it has been many years ago. Over the years I have heard both the public and the vendors whine about how they are treated It's bad enough to have listened to men complain that they didn't get the deal of the century at someone elses exspence but now we got to drag political correctness and sexism into the shows.
The future for the shows is bleak, better learn to enjoy them for what they are before they are gone. You know, somebody buys them out and fires everyone
jim
It's bad enough to have listened to men complain that they didn't get the deal of the century at someone elses exspence but now we got to drag political correctness and sexism into the shows.The future for the shows is bleak, better learn to enjoy them for what they are before they are gone. You know, somebody buys them out and fires everyone
jim
I'm a dealer, and I always have a booth at the local gunshow.
It is never okay to mistreat anybody. Whether they are male or female. It is always wrong to assume anything about their level of proficiency until they give you an indication as to what that proficiency really is.
Some of you are making excuses for the dealer. Don't. Really, dealers that mistreat customers need to be punished by the market. That is the only thing that ever corrects bad behavior. Reward the dealers that treat you with respect.
We did an experiment once at the gunshow. This was for market research because we wanted to see how our competitors treated people. We sent a woman that we knew to every table at the show. She was looking for an AR15. She's an Army vet, and shoots on the NG rifle team. She knows more about AR type rifles than 95% of the shooting public. She was dressed normally, was in her 30s, and attractive.
Everywhere she went, she was treated like she was stupid. It was an epidemic. Without her even saying anything, the assumption at the vast majority of the tables was that she was ignorant. The level of condescension varied from place to place, from just being ignored, all the way up to the "hey little lady, you don't want one of those, they're too complicated."
It was blatant and disgusting. We had her take notes.
A couple of shows later, we repeated the experiment, only this time we used my wife. Her mission. Buy a compact .45. She's in her early 30s, very attractive, and was dressed like she had money. She also knows how to shoot, and a .45 is no problem for her whatsoever.
Same. Exact. Thing.
You're stupid. You're not worth my time. I'm going to talk to everyone other than you. You don't want that gun, you need a ladies gun. (usually some stupid .32 or .22). You don't want an auto, because women are too dumb to understand the complex mechanism, you need this snub nose .38. I'm going to show you the gun you want, but I'm going to stare at your chest the whole time like I'm an idiot 13 year-old boy.
Okay, so we've already had people in this thread say that it is okay, because this is a male dominated thing. Well, maybe the reason it is a male dominated thing is because as a culture, we're going out of our way to keep it that way.
If you've got a dealer that respects you as a person, reward them with your business. We've really got to quit making excuses for stupidity. Whether it is when we do it ourselves, or anyone else in the gun culture.
It is never okay to mistreat anybody. Whether they are male or female. It is always wrong to assume anything about their level of proficiency until they give you an indication as to what that proficiency really is.
Some of you are making excuses for the dealer. Don't. Really, dealers that mistreat customers need to be punished by the market. That is the only thing that ever corrects bad behavior. Reward the dealers that treat you with respect.
We did an experiment once at the gunshow. This was for market research because we wanted to see how our competitors treated people. We sent a woman that we knew to every table at the show. She was looking for an AR15. She's an Army vet, and shoots on the NG rifle team. She knows more about AR type rifles than 95% of the shooting public. She was dressed normally, was in her 30s, and attractive.
Everywhere she went, she was treated like she was stupid. It was an epidemic. Without her even saying anything, the assumption at the vast majority of the tables was that she was ignorant. The level of condescension varied from place to place, from just being ignored, all the way up to the "hey little lady, you don't want one of those, they're too complicated."
It was blatant and disgusting. We had her take notes.
A couple of shows later, we repeated the experiment, only this time we used my wife. Her mission. Buy a compact .45. She's in her early 30s, very attractive, and was dressed like she had money. She also knows how to shoot, and a .45 is no problem for her whatsoever.
Same. Exact. Thing.
You're stupid. You're not worth my time. I'm going to talk to everyone other than you. You don't want that gun, you need a ladies gun. (usually some stupid .32 or .22). You don't want an auto, because women are too dumb to understand the complex mechanism, you need this snub nose .38. I'm going to show you the gun you want, but I'm going to stare at your chest the whole time like I'm an idiot 13 year-old boy.
Okay, so we've already had people in this thread say that it is okay, because this is a male dominated thing. Well, maybe the reason it is a male dominated thing is because as a culture, we're going out of our way to keep it that way.
If you've got a dealer that respects you as a person, reward them with your business. We've really got to quit making excuses for stupidity. Whether it is when we do it ourselves, or anyone else in the gun culture.
No arguments on any of that. However, I would point out that at both the dealers' tables in question in the OP, the girlfriend turned to the guy, asking about his experience and opinion. It is not, actually, totally unreasonable for the guy behind the counter to assume, at that point, that he's more the "gunnie" in the relationship than she is.
Many of you who are on this board very often know very well that I get my nose seriously out of joint at real sexism. I'm the one who's always verbally whacking on guys for posting their "what gun for the wifey" threads and I am personally and philosophically invested in seeing women shooters increase in number and be treated right.
However, if I want to be treated as an individual (and I do) when shopping for guns, Archerandshooter hangs back behind me and I ask the questions of the salesperson. I don't ask him, I don't sound hesitant, I get the guy to look me in the eye and I do the talking. If I am doing something that I'm not so knowledgable in and I ask him questions and get his opinion, I'd rather expect to have a salesperson in fact treat me as the less-invested person.
All I'm saying is that, given the fact that she was asking the questions of her boyfriend as he describes it, it's not hideously out of line that the sales guys assumed he was teaching her, rather than her being the experienced shooter and capable woman that she is.
Springmom
Many of you who are on this board very often know very well that I get my nose seriously out of joint at real sexism. I'm the one who's always verbally whacking on guys for posting their "what gun for the wifey" threads
and I am personally and philosophically invested in seeing women shooters increase in number and be treated right.However, if I want to be treated as an individual (and I do) when shopping for guns, Archerandshooter hangs back behind me and I ask the questions of the salesperson. I don't ask him, I don't sound hesitant, I get the guy to look me in the eye and I do the talking. If I am doing something that I'm not so knowledgable in and I ask him questions and get his opinion, I'd rather expect to have a salesperson in fact treat me as the less-invested person.
All I'm saying is that, given the fact that she was asking the questions of her boyfriend as he describes it, it's not hideously out of line that the sales guys assumed he was teaching her, rather than her being the experienced shooter and capable woman that she is.
Springmom
I'm getting a check from my insurance company for a stolen rifle and some other goodies..I figure it will be about 2K.
Do I have to spend all of it to be treated like the next customer, or just part of it?
I think the difference between ignorance and sexism is a good point. Some people are dumb and need a little extra prodding, or honestly surprised to find out a woman can be interested or knowledgable about guns..
Fix what you can, let the others figure out how to increase their business without increasing their customer base.
Do I have to spend all of it to be treated like the next customer, or just part of it?
I think the difference between ignorance and sexism is a good point. Some people are dumb and need a little extra prodding, or honestly surprised to find out a woman can be interested or knowledgable about guns..
Fix what you can, let the others figure out how to increase their business without increasing their customer base.
I'll be more specific: My only experience with gun shows are ones that come to OKC. 10 years ago they were a different experience than now. Maybe gun shows are different in other parts of the country - I hear the Wannamacher Show in Tulsa is pretty good - and if so y'all are lucky. The ones that come to OKC are an Indiana Jones adventure in shopping.
1. There are 3 gunshows that come to OKC on a regular basis. We average one every 90 days or so. Sometimes we'll get 2 in a month. Two of the three OKC gun shows are crowded, noisy, dirty venues. The idea that anyone would be shocked that that crowd would figure women and guns don't go together was a bit much to swallow.
2. Of the 3 only 1 is what I would call reputable. When setup the tables are clean, clear of junk, floors are swept and the vendors are all gun dealers with the occassional knife dealer. The venue is at the state fairgrounds but imagine how it would be if set up in a hotel.
3. The other two - well - think white trash flea market with a dash of carny and 300 pound, overall wearing without a t'shirt junk dealer thrown in for taste.
There's always at least 3 or 4 dealers there that are pushing NAZI memorabilia and not for historical collectors but because they're freaking NAZI's. Talk to 'em - you'll get the idea real quick. Toss in a few hard core right wing militia types for good measure.
Most of the rest of the dealers are pushing junk or trying to get rid of something they dug out of grampa's attic.
There aren't any deals unless you're lookin to buy a 9mm Hi-Point for $89. I've seen SKS' with bores almost shotgun smooth where the dealer wanted $200+. I've seen AK's where the dealers wanted $900 plus and when asked what made 'em so special almost always come up with some cock and bull story that just made me laugh. The only one that came close was one who said they were pre-82 (which meant nothing) but probably meant pre-86 or 89 whenever the rule about must have 6 or 10 US parts in it if imported. I understand those have some value to collectors.
Lots of new guns out on the tables but most of the dealers (meaning all but 6) are from out of town and their prices are way too high. Why should I buy from an out of town dealer when I can buy from a local for less.
As for the customers - well - they run the gamut from guys who are obviously recreational pharmaceutical reps, real bikers, biker wannabees, gang bangers, and billy bob rednecks, to middle class mainstreamers, dentists, bankers, doctors, etc. It's actually quite interesting to take a break at a concession and sit and watch the crowd. (in case anyone's wondering I'd fit into the middle class, looks like an over the hill, old ex bad ass crowd so I pretty much fit right in...
)Add to that that the bummers want to charge you $10 bucks to get in the door to buy the junk and well - I don't go very often.
You know what? I'm going to be picking up a Colt 6920, although not from the 2nd gunstore (only because I'm getting a good deal on a private sale) but I think I'll take pics and send it to the bonehead who runs the 1st gunstore and ask if this is powerful enough or if he thinks I should just shoot everything with my M1. Then I'll mention how much I paid for it and that I didn't get it from him and wouldn't be getting my next gun from him either.
- Status
