Homeland Security using Hi Point Carbine?

[444]

Another third hand story about Colt.
One of the instructors I had at Gunsite works for a Southern California police department. Their tactical team carries Colt M16s with 11.5" barrels. When they get them, they won't run on full auto. Of course when they first started buying these, they called Colt to complain. Colt told them that they don't test fire any of the guns, they expect the department's armor to sort each gun out prior to issuing it. This is exactly what they have to do in order to have these brand new Colt guns run.

 

[drinks]

I would say there are some funny things going on here.
First, there is no Texas Dept. of Prisons, formerly, it was called the Texas Dept. of Correction, currently it is called the Texas Dept. of Criminal Justice.I am a retiree with 10 years service.
The firearms in the armories and guard towers are;
A Colt SS revolver with 38sp+P loads.
A Remington 870P and 00 buckshot.
A Colt made AR 15 and 55gr fmj loads.
The 9mm is not in use in the Texas Dept. Criminal Justice, unless some of the commissioned personnel carry a 9mm pistol.
They only carry when off the prison sites
, unless an escape is in progress and they are hunting the escapees, and this is not in the buildings, only on the outer property and the neighboring properties with whom the State has an agreement allowing trespass while hunting the escapee/s.
Hot pursuit is another matter altogether, not just hunting for an escapee.
Correctional officers have no law enforcement authority, no matter how much they try to bluff people.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

... I could maybe see a kel-tec carbine... the fit finish design seems a little better I have one in 9mm and it's reliable and accurate... plus in .40 could be compatable with glocks...

 

[dz86]

I think that Carlos Hathcock put it best when he said that you needed a range of different firearms for different missions, kind of like a golfer selecting the proper club from a golf bag.
That's whay our department issues several different rifles to different officers. Our ERT/snipers carry their .308 bolt rifles with them on patrol. We also have 10 USGI M-14s that we got from the government. Another 5 officers have G36s, full auto capable, 5.56mm. Another 5 have AR 15s with optics and cans, in case they have to be fired indoors. The rest of the officers who carry rifles have to provide their own. Each officer goes through a one week basic training course before they are allowed to carry a rifle on patrol that covers, among other things, when it is appropriate to employ a high power rifle, and when it is not.
There are advantages and disadvantages to every firearm for police work, from handguns, to shotguns, to rifles. As someone pointed out earlier, we are not the military, we are the civilian police. But years ago, before we issued rifles, I got to find out what it felt like to be pinned down by a sniper who was armed with a rifle while another officer lay dead a few feet from me. At that time we had only handguns and two shotguns (useless) between us. So we do need rifles, and a good balance of types them so that you can respond to a variety of threats.
Regardless, I would not feel the least bit "under-gunned" to have a pistol caliber carbine for my patrol rifle. As several have quite correctly pointed out, having a carbine that uses interchangeable magazines with the officer's handgun makes very, very, good sense. The whole idea of the patrol carbine is that it is always easier to make a first round hit, and out to longer ranges, with a long gun than it is with a handgun. For the patrol officer having a weapon that could be fired accurately out to 100 yards would be our goal. The key is shot placement. An officer who hits what he is aiming at makes everyone safer.
As an investigator with 20 years of experience I have attended numerous autopsies over the years. Over the last few years most of the gunshot deaths that I've seen have been from "popgun" 9mms. They were all just as dead as the one I saw recently who was shot by a 7.62x39mm. One of the guys that I saw killed with a "popgun" 9mm was riding in the backseat of a large, fullsize car. The popgun round penetrated the steel trunklid, penetrated the front wall of the trunk, went through the seat, into his body, and killed him. Actually two rounds did, side-by-side. When he was lying there on the table for the post mortem exam I don't think he really cared too much about whose book said what about stopping power.
I started reading this thread because I was interested in buying my 13 year old son a semi-auto carbine for plinking. While I find the Hi-Point to be almost unbelievably ugly looking, I had heard that they worked. With 9mm ammo being cheap, and us already owning a couple of these worthless popguns (like the one that I carry on duty), a 9mm Hi-Point sounded good for the kid. Sorry if I rambled on too long. But I wanted to present a little different viewpoint than you were getting from another LEO.
If your pistol caliber carbine is dependable, I'd not hesitate for a moment to use it as a tactical weapon, as long as I kept it's limitations in mind.

 

[Ridge]

Pistol Caliber Carbine=Good for 25-100 yard use.

355Ssigfan=Should be put on the rubber gun squad.
(I don't have anything against LEO's....it's just guys with attitudes like 355 Sigfan I have a problem with being able to walk streets armed,man you seem like you're under alot of pressure,switch to de-caf)

 

[355sigfan]

Ridge your post was a blatent personal attack. You don't know know me enough to make that characterization. Your post is being reported. If your going to post here try to follow the Highroads rules regarding posting.
Pat

 

[DJon]

dz86

I have purchased two of the Hi-Point Rifles for two teenage boys they have
shot multiple rounds thru them as a matter of fact one had to be returned do to mechanical problems after several hundreds of rounds, They have out grown those and went to bigger calibers but for a early teenager these are very dependable weapons, They will take a lot of abuse and I had very minimal trouble with them and when I did have problems they were usually needing a good cleaning usually to remove some outdoor objects from them having them in the woods.

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE

As an investigator with 20 years of experience I have attended numerous autopsies over the years. Over the last few years most of the gunshot deaths that I've seen have been from "popgun" 9mms. They were all just as dead as the one I saw recently who was shot by a 7.62x39mm. One of the guys that I saw killed with a "popgun" 9mm was riding in the backseat of a large, fullsize car. The popgun round penetrated the steel trunklid, penetrated

END QUOTE

Really. THen you have seen the difference in rifle vs pistol wounds. I have seen my share of gunshot wounds. Rifle wounds are far worse. You must have been to a sucide where no head remains with a rifle or a shotgun. With handguns its not anywhere near as bad. The eyes puff out a bit, the head swells. But nothing too dramatic.

I have been an investigator for most of my 6 plus years. I have been a firearms instructor most of that time as well. I can tell you there is a huge difference in stopping power between handguns and rifle rounds. If you have seen shootings you know this to be true. Another fun fact for you 75% of all people shot in the US with pistols live. 75% of all people shot in the US with rifles die. Like I said before there is a huge difference in the stopping power potential between your common service handgun calibers and your intermediate rifle calibers.

I do agree with you on shotplacement thats a given.

As far as interchangability of ammo with your pistol this is only an advantage for the bean counters not for the guys on the street. With an AR15 and one spare mag you will have as much or more ammo than a pistol caliber carbine using pistol mags combined with the ammo on your belt.

While its true every weapon system has strengths and weakness. Pistol caliber carbines have no strenths that apply to law enforcement. Pistol caliber carbines can be used on in door ranges. Great who cares. Pistol caliber carbines have less range than 223 carbines, they have far less stopping power, they overpenetrate in homes and other building materials compared to 223 carbines, they can't defeat body armor yet 223's can. 223 carbines also have more ammunition capacity.

The real reason for pistol caliber carbines is political. Some agencies are hamstrung by liberal politicians. And a pistol caliber carbine is better than no long gun at all. But from a gun fighting standpoint compared to 223 carbines they suck.

Compared to 12 gauge shotguns they still come out on the bottom so long as your shotgun has rifle sights and you have slugs available.

Your analagy about being just as dead with a 9mm hole vs a 7.62 round is a bit silly. You would be just as dead with a 22 lr hole in you but do you suggest we start arming ourselves with Ruger 10-22's.


Pat

 

[ROAshooter]

StOP IT!

Dont you all know 355sig.....is RIGHT!!!
And all these attacks....against him....such a waste of time.
You all must remember he is a sensitive man with feelings.....just look at all the other times people have attacked him..for no apparent reason.
I have a greater appreciation for his stressful LEO duties....knowing his background.from Bethal AK.population of less than six thousand. And having only twelve or so other LEO brothers to back him up. All that responsibility!
And all the experince of six plus years.....he is nearing burnout..so give him a break!!!
Im here for ya Patsy....I'll back ya up....

 

[Correia]

And this thread slinks off to die.


dz86, welcome to the High Road. It is always good to have another experienced poster with a different perspective.

This thread is done.