"If everyone had the training I had.."

[louisdove]

I feel an urgent need to convey this story..

Myself and a fellow member of this site went out for a few drinks tonight at a local dive bar. Even though we are not, it tends to be more of a rougher crowd at the local watering hole we go to (walking distance from my house, trying to be responsable[sp]). As usual at this place someone becomes upset with someone else and the tough guy in both comes out. At this point they both make it obvious that they have (illegal for the place/situation) knives on them.
Without anything being said we both start to head for the door realizing this is not a good situation and we should avoid it. During the walk home we (He is a Marine Corp/Iraqi Freedom Veteren) started talking about if one of us had been in that situation, where some intoxicated yocal were to pull a knife/weapon in a place we were not allowed to carry, what would/could we do? His response was "If everyone had the training I had there would be no bar fights." He contiuned on saying that the chair he was sitting in is much longer than a knife and if it came down to it he would be able to defend a knife attack with that chair.
We talked more about his training and my question is if everyone was taught some sort of defensive training class, would there be less violence?
To me this goes along with "If the crimanals don't know who is armed..."
I Don't think this is plausable, but I think it is a hell of an idea. I have a girlfriend who is young and naive and would never take a class like this, even though she needs it, unless she were made to.
Im sure this has been discussed before and I doubt my post will make a huge difference, but I am curious what your thoughts are.

P.S. sorry for the long post I am ranting and as a side note my girlfriend (thanks to me) does carry pepper spray (I am half way to converting her)

 

[Dionysusigma]

What's the violent crime rate amongst Israeli citizens?

 

[louisdove]

What do you mean?

 

[coelacanth]

I think he means. . . . .

that many if not most Israeli citizens have served in that country's armed forces and received self defense training( probably Krav Maga or some variant ).
Add to that the fact that they are frequently targets of terrorist attacks and thus their tactical awareness is probably higher than most. That dovetails nicely with your idea that widespread self defense training might well result in a less violent society. As the author Robert Heinlein once said, "An armed society is a polite society.". I believe your idea is a natural extension of that concept and probably a valid one.

 

[GhostlyKarliion]

well, if everyone had the training I have had then there would be a lot less violence too...

point 1, if you are mad enough to fight, leave.
point 2, if someone else is mad enough to fight, leave.
point 3, if you can in any way avoid the fight, leave.

yep, there would be a lot less violence if people would learn that someone smudging you brand new Hi-Tech boot isn't worth fighting over, just let it slide... save the fights for the important things, like the rapist in your house at three in the morning - by all means, kick his a$$.

 

[ceetee]

People that have had lessons in fighting also pick up the realization that in any confrontation, people are liable to get hurt. Sometimes those injuries leave permanent scars or disabilities. Learning this makes you more apt to take responsibility for your actions, and more aware that it's better to try to solve problems non-violently.

 

[Rufus Pisanus]

I think that it boils down to the "speak softly and carry a big stick" motto: you don't go look for a fight and try to avoid escalating to violence but are prepared for the worst. After all even the Romans "si vis pacem para bellum" was following similar ideas. Clearly we haven't changed a lot in a few thousand years...

 

[jefnvk]

My guess is that everyone having self-defense traingin would not stop any bar fights. Not that it isn't a good idea to have it, but there isn't a lot that beats out alcohol and stupidity.

 

[nplant]

If it ain't worth dying for, it ain't worth killing for, and it most likely ain't worth fighting for. You can always buy a new (insert item here).

 

[oobray]

One thing that I have theorized a lot about is another aspect of why training negates the male tendency to fight. I am a shorter than average guy. 5'6". In high school I didn't have a problem with de escelating a fight should some stupid jock try and push me. Reason being, I have been inolved in mixed martial arts fighting since junior high, and I routinely prove my physical prowess to myself. I didn't need to "prove something" which is what most males are trying to do. I did however on occasion come across times when I needed to fight, but they were rare.
I think that if people especially males, have a way to constructively prove thier "manhood" then they will be less likely to fight needlessly. I guess, personal security is another way of putting it.

 

[pax]

My guess is that everyone having self-defense traingin would not stop any bar fights.

Well, I guess that depends on the training. Below is the type of self defense teaching you'll learn from most big names in the gun industry -- and following such teaching would indeed stop most bar fights.

"Don't go stupid places. Don't hang out with stupid people. Don't do stupid things." -- John Farnam

"The very first option for personal security is avoidance, de-escalation, and deterrence." -- Andy Stanford

"If you think you're going to need to shoot someone if you go there, don't go there. It's real simple." -- Marty Hayes

"When you carry a gun, you give up the right to defend yourself against insults by punks and *******s." -- Massad Ayoob

"The essence of good marksmanship is self-control, and self-control is the essence of good citizenship. It is too easy to say that a good shot is automatically a good man, but it would be equally incorrect to ignore the connection." -- Jeff Cooper

Could probably find more if I spent more time looking, but the upshot is that every responsible trainer teaches his or her students to avoid violent or stupid situations when possible.

And following that training would indeed prevent people from getting into drunken brawls at the local pub.

pax

 

[BullfrogKen]

louisdove said: During the walk home we (He is a Marine Corp/Iraqi Freedom Veteren) <said> "If everyone had the training I had there would be no bar fights."

I know that comment sounds good, especially coming from him. And in many cases men who have seen violence firsthand, especially in war, resolve to never hunt, or shoot again. Some become complete pacifists.

But no more fighting? That's just not reality. I was a Marine, too. I assure you Marines get themselves into just as many bar fights as other young men. They fight with other Marines in the bars around bases, or even with other Marines within his own platoon.


The only effective medicine to stop young men from fighting each other in bars is maturity and self control.

 

[JMusic]

Well I agree with Bullfrog but I would not limit it to just men. I did take away something else from the original comment that is important. It was the statement about the chair. Seldom have I considered myself "unarmed". Be it picking up a rock to using a pool cue in a bar you do have weapons at your disposal. When you here the statement be aware of your surroundings that should not be limitted to just watching for ambush points or BG's hidden in the shadows. You should also be aware of what tools are at your disposal. If you are creative seldom will you find yourself in a position of not having something to defend yourself with.

Jim

 

[brownie0486]

You should also be aware of what tools are at your disposal. If you are creative seldom will you find yourself in a position of not having something to defend yourself with.

oooh ooooh, unconventional weapons, ya, now you're talking Jim.

It defies logic that people do not recognize chairs, pool cues, rocks, ashtrays, sticks and the like as potential weapons. After all, the first weapons man "picked up" to defend against their fellow neanderthals, woolly mammoths, saber tooths were probably rocks and sticks

Most everyone has a belt on that can be used as a flail/whip at any time. Problem with that might be as soon as you access the belt, your pants fall down and you instantly appear to be part of the "gangsta wannabe" crowd.

Brownie

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

sometimes the only thing that stops young men from fighting is getting into a fight ! Hitting somebody with your best shot ,and having only result be the undivided attention of the guy they hit !! for some it is a learing thing !

 

[Eyesac]

If everyone had the training I had there would be no bar fights

I think it's just a silly thing for your friend to say to begin with.
But otherwise, I think the average "common" man knows how to be violent just fine (and with out training too). I think idiots are idiots and will cause trouble no matter what they've trained. Besides, all the Marines I know have been in more bar fights than me! Shows you what they know.

 

[Bix]

I believe that the training I've had [from some of the guys mentioned in Pax's post] and the lifestyle change I cultivated as a result, make me less likely to be involved in a violent encounter than I was before. Easy to justify pricey tuition from that perspecitve

 

[JamisJockey]

Quote:
louisdove said: During the walk home we (He is a Marine Corp/Iraqi Freedom Veteren) <said> "If everyone had the training I had there would be no bar fights."

I know that comment sounds good, especially coming from him. And in many cases men who have seen violence firsthand, especially in war, resolve to never hunt, or shoot again. Some become complete pacifists.

But no more fighting? That's just not reality. I was a Marine, too. I assure you Marines get themselves into just as many bar fights as other young men. They fight with other Marines in the bars around bases, or even with other Marines within his own platoon.


The only effective medicine to stop young men from fighting each other in bars is maturity and self control.
__________________

We generally only picked on squids!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

But no more fighting? That's just not reality. I was a Marine, too. I assure you Marines get themselves into just as many bar fights as other young men. They fight with other Marines in the bars around bases, or even with other Marines within his own platoon.

Very good. That is a perfect example of a major shortcoming of the theory that equal training would mean less violence.

The idea that same training would mean less violence seems like an idea based on nuclear MAD (mutually assured destruction). MAD did not reduce violence. It just precluded the US and USSR from nuking one another.

 

[Snapping Twig]

All so very interesting...

I'm trained, very much so. I don't present an offensive exterior, in fact I look like a regular guy, and I am.

This past Christmas I was at a party having a nice conversation with a fellow about pleasant and heart warming things related to our children when an oaf insinuated himself into our chat. We welcomed him and included him but it wasn't long before his bad assed ways came to the surface and he (for NO reason) started to insult me. I went silent and he upped the ante by doing it again. What this jerk didn't know was that I had him sized up for 3 separate attacks, all of which were not survivable. I was not willing to break up the party or do the jail time, and besides, his assault was verbal, so I turned on my heel and walked away - keeping him on my "to do" list, but gaining distance.

He came over to me later and apologized and I was amenable and thanked him for doing so, but we left minutes later, cutting short our stay.

Knowing the outcome kept me from acting violently and saved his life. I believe in peace through superior firepower and I believe that an armed society is a polite society. I believe that thugs knowing that someone, somewhere can reign down death and destruction on them at will keeps them at bey. Awareness is 90% of avoidance which is the key, avoid violence and it doesn't take place. Avoidance IS action, violence is an absolute last resort. Anyone that trains knows this and in so, they are the ones you need least fear and if they have an ounce of humanity, they will protect others from harm because they can.

I'll do everything within my abilities to walk away, but if cornered I will act. Bad guys can see it in your eyes, some believe what they see, others learn to believe.

 

[Geno]

I guess that 4 decades of martial arts training, and 2.5 decades being a certified instructor qualifies me as "trained".

My awareness is so acute that I am danged near clairvoyant. I can almost anticipate problems therein, and so I avoid bars altogether.