If the P7 is so great then...

[AK103K]

I think the biggest problem with the P7 is ignorance of what it is and what it does or can do. Its very foreign to a lot of shooters, especially those set in their ways. I find you either love it or hate it, theres not to many sitting on the fence. I've heard a number of people bitch about them only to learn they never fired one and based their opinons on what they "heard". I still personally believe that if your going to carry this pistol, you need to "only" carry this pistol. It takes a little time to get used to the cocker and to make sure your in the P7 state of mind.
The issue about cocking and uncocking doesnt make any sense to me. When the gun was drawn it was cocked, everytime. If you do anything other, your training for disaster. The only time it was uncocked was to reholster or unload. Once the initial "squeeze" is made, it takes no effort to keep the pistol cocked if you keep a normal firing grip on it. The hard thing for "non" P7 people to do is to remember to cock the gun. Most people who "tried" to shoot mine when I first got it bitched something was wrong with it, and its because they didnt cock it. This can be a big plus if someone who doesnt know the gun should get it away from you. Its also a great feature if the gun should be dropped, as soon as it leaves your hand its uncocked.
I've never heard of problems with Unique. I always used Unique in my 9mm reloads and never had any kind of trouble with it and the P7. My reloads are not hot but cycle 99% of the guns I've shot them in, the Glocks being the offenders. I've shot more than "a couple" of thousands of rounds out of my pistol and never had function or accuracy problems with it. I always cleaned the gas port and piston each time I fired it. I think the lead issue is more for the gas system more than anything, although I've been "hearing" a lot of complaints from Glock shooters, or theres a discussion going on anyways.
The heating issue I think is being blown out of proportion. The early guns, didnt have a heat shield and the plastic one was added due to complaints, or so I read. The gun gets hot cause the gas works are right at that point where you'd notice. I never noticed it was unbareably hot after a couple of fast mags, but it did get warm. I 'm sure you could get it hot enough to annoy you if you tried, but then again, you can make AK handguards catch fire if you work at it.
The P7 is one of the more accurate pistols I've ever shot out of the box. Like most HK's I have or have had, they almost get boring in this department. Its almost like you have to work at shooting bad. I guess if you want to nit pick about the size of a group, thats up to you, but to me, its just a pistol and if I can reasonably hit something at 25 yards, I'm happy. I know my groups aren't going to be the 1.5" that most of the gun writers claim to be the norm(from every gun they shoot), I'd be happy if they are 1.75 or so . (Really, I'd be happy if they were 6" at this point, I'm more interested in "combat" accuracy than gnawing a hole out of the center of a bull, not that I wouldnt like to be able to.)
Like I said before, I got rid of mine (now I see it was a weak moment) because it was getting to pricey to carry and I could get two other (so called) wonder guns for it. I wish now that I'd kept it. I would now probably not carry it as I prefer the 1911's, and dont think switching back and forth is a good idea. This debate, I think, will be one of those endless love it or hate it type things. If you want to bitch about an HK pistol, why not pick on the VP-70.
Boy, talk about UGLY and useless!

 

[Tamara]

AK103K,

If you want to bitch about an HK pistol, why not pick on the VP-70.

You mean the "Hi-Point & Koch"?

 

[AK103K]

Thats the one

Actually, its a well made, but goofy pistol. My buddy has one. Not one of the ones with the "special" stock though.

 

[Handy]

Tamara,

You really aren't giving credance to my P9S fetish.

 

[akanotken]

AK103 wrote:

"I always cleaned the gas port and piston each time I fired it."

So what is your best 'double tap' with this gun?

Put me down in the "didn't like the trigger" camp. Found the reach to be long, and the very short take up undoubtably had me sending rounds a little bit early. I never did really get used to it.

I borrowed one for a week, from a really nice friend, and worried I'd fall in love with it. I like the pistol's concept, but shooting it did nothing for me. Maybe the differences from my other pistols were just to much for my small brain?

 

[AK103K]

So what is your best 'double tap' with this gun?

A tad slow, but it smelled pretty each shot

 

[twoblink]

I'm in the "my grip doesn't start out the same as when I shoot it" camp. The triggers on it (like most HK triggers) suck.

They are too expensive.

I wanted one, until I shot Skunks. The I didn't anymore..

 

[Tamara]

twoblink,

The triggers on it (like most HK triggers) suck.

Uh, whatever.

What do you know about good triggers, anyway? You own a Steyr for pete's sake.

 

[cslinger]

Uh, whatever.

What do you know about good triggers, anyway? You own a Steyr for pete's sake.



Ouch. Now now let's be nice. Careful next thing you know you will rehash that Steyr is a ticking timebomb ready to kill all in a 100' radius thread.

As for the P7 trigger, I have never shot one, but did dry fire Tamara's and I seem to remember it being a pretty darn good feeling trigger and it took no effort to keep the squeeze cocker pushed in. I am, however, not exactly a trigger pull expert or anything.

Chris

 

[Tamara]

Steyrs do have good-feeling triggers...

...when compared to a Glock, Sigma, USP or VP70.

 

[AK103K]

Ahhh, but nothing beats a nice 1911 trigger.

 

[Tamara]

AK103K,

I know that's right.

 

[Tamara]

BHP9,

Or should I call you "Wild Romanian"?

Anyhow, on to business:

MY point is, simply ,that the tremendous amount of extra heat generated to the barrel because of the gas system of the gas operated pistol heats it up far more quickly than the short-recoil Browning guns. Anyone who has fired an HK gas gun has observed this. All this additional heat quickly helps raise the bore temperature to the point where erosion is taking place far sooner than the slower heating up of the Brownind short recoil weapons.

This is incorrect.

First, the P7 is not "gas operated"; it is blowback-operated with a gas delay.

Secondly, a 9mm catridge with X grains of powder is always going to generate Y units of heat when that powder combusts, whether it goes off in a short-recoil gun, a gas-delayed blowback gun, a electrically operated gatling, or on your livingroom floor. There is no special "heat magnifier" in a P7. Simple, right? X grains powder generating Y degrees heat. X, Y. The reason the squeeze-cocker "heats up far more quickly" is that you are feeling heat that is tapped AWAY from the barrel by the gas port and into the frame above your trigger finger where you can feel it, instead of all being retained in the barrel like in a short-recoil gun. If anything, the P7s frame acts as a heat sink tapping heat away from the barrel and causing less barrel heating than in a short-recoil gun. At pistol velocities this is entirely negligable, but (at least in theory) the gas gun could have a longer barrel life.

 

[BHP9]

Secondly, a 9mm catridge with X grains of powder is always going to generate Y units of heat when that powder combusts, whether it goes off in a short-recoil gun, a gas-delayed blowback gun, a electrically operated gatling, or on your livingroom floor. There is no special "heat magnifier" in a P7. Simple, right? X grains powder generating Y degrees heat. X, Y. The reason the squeeze-cocker "heats up far more quickly" is that you are feeling heat that is tapped AWAY from the barrel by the gas port and into the frame above your trigger finger where you can feel it, instead of all being retained in the barrel like in a short-recoil gun. If anything, the P7s frame acts as a heat sink tapping heat away from the barrel and causing less barrel heating than in a short-recoil gun. At pistol velocities this is entirely negligable, but (at least in theory) the gas gun could have a longer barrel life.


In reality the Gas is being trapped inside the gun to hold the slide closed. It is not being all blown out the end of the barrel. The simple result is that heat builds up from the trapped gas at a phenonminal rate because although both Short recoil guns and Gas guns shoot the same powder with the same thermal heat units the gas gun is holding some of the power gases inside the pistol for a far longer period of time.

In reality, not theory, the Gas gun holds some of the gases( heat) in the gun and that contributes to rapid heating of not only the frame but the barrel and the entire weapon

So basically there is indeed a heat magnifier and its called the pistols gas system.

 

[Handy]

A load of crap.

Gas pressure and heat go hand in hand. Once the pressure begins to drop the heat is absorbed by the gas. The gas pressure drops as soon as the bullet clears the bore in any design. At that moment the gas expands, temps and pressure drop and the piston pumps the cooled gas back out. There are no valves in the system so the pressure and temperature drops evenly.

What is hilarious is that you're insisting that a barrel piston system, which has more internal volume than a standard barrel, could reach a higher temperature. If anything, the opposite situation exists as gas is bled off into the piston, lowering total pressure, muzzle velocity and temperature.

 

[Dobe]

BHP9,
The P7 gets hot, because is it releasing gas into the frame, not because it is holding gas in longer. A gas gun's barrel should not wear any faster than one of a short recoil.

I love Brownings designs, but I'd have a P7 tomorrow, if I could afford one.

 

[Tamara]

BHP9/Wild Romanian,

It would really help your case if you had at least examined the operating system of some of these pistols you so enjoy pontificating about...

 

[BHP9]

What is hilarious is that you're insisting that a barrel piston system, which has more internal volume than a standard barrel, could reach a higher temperature. If anything, the opposite situation exists as gas is bled off into the piston, lowering total pressure, muzzle velocity and temperature


If what Handy and Tamara says is accurate then the HK pistol would stay cooler after firing 50 rounds quickly on a summer day, not hotter, as in reality it does.

.Initiallly Handy, you are correct, the gas system does indeed act as a heat sink but only for a short period of time.

Have you ever watched a steel being heated in a mill or being welded on in a repair job. What happens is that even when heating the end of a piece of bar stock the heat travels from one end of the bar stock to the other and the entire piece is soon glowing red. Much the same thing happens in the HK. Every part that is heated affects the other parts in the gun. The gas system is not seperate and floating about in a self insulated state. They are all connected and heat travels between the connected parts. The gas system itself keeps things cooking inside the pistol and this why the pistol gets so hot after only firing a few rounds of ammo. Just as in the piece of bar stock it all does not happen instantly but starts to build up and build up very quickly.

A more simple example: Have you ever observed how fast the inside temperature of your stoves oven at home drops off when you open the door to check on what is cooking inside. When you keep the door closed the temperature rises very quickly. The exact same thing is taking place inside the HK as opposed to the short recoil guns. When the heat is trapped it builds up the temperature very quickly. If this were not happening, once again the HK would be the cooler weapon when firing it quickly and for long periods of time. And of course it is not.


The only real controversy is simply how much heat does it take before it starts to shorten barrel life and internal parts life and this can only be resolved by expensive and time consuming testing.

To further complicate matters not all people use their weapons in the same way. Some people fire a few rounds and let their HK cool down and some blast away until the pistol glows red hot. The way the pistol is operated will also contribute to how long the barrel and the weapons internal parts last.

 

[Dobe]

BHP9,
by the following logic of what you said, the P7's barrel should be cooler, because it is diverting gases away from it.

You wrote:
"A more simple example: Have you ever observed how fast the inside temperature of your stoves oven at home drops off when you open the door to check on what is cooking inside. When you keep the door closed the temperature rises very quickly. The exact same thing is taking place inside the HK as opposed to the short recoil guns. When the heat is trapped it builds up the temperature very quickly. "

Now, I know what you meant by this, but in reality, the gun does get hotter than a Browning design, but the barrel is not eroding any quicker. It is the frame that is heating up more than other guns, not the barrel. I belive this discussion was over barrel life.