It's over, we've lost

[Waffen]

I only agree with about 3-4 posts in this thread, and thank god the posters I do agree with live around me. I can't believe some of what I'm seeing here.

The people that dress up in all camo and talk black helicopters, UN invasion, and SHTF really only help push the stereotype that all shooters are a bunch of yahoo's (it appears that some are). I look at it as people only playing dress up, like CAS in a way, but more more "real world" and intimidating to new shooters. I will shoot the same in a pair of jeans and a tee shirt as I will in a full military BDU, I doubt it really matters what you are in as well. I don't see many 3 gun/IDPA champs shooting in camo and they seem to do just fine at "tactical reloads" and keeping a lot of rounds on hand. If you want to play like your in the army, put your money where you BDU's and SKS's are and join up. I'm sure you will learn a lot.

As for shooting at Silhouette targets...why does it matter? It's only paper anyway. If you can hit the 10 ring every time you can pretty much call your shot on a deer,hog,human, or raccoon.

As for paramilitary, or militia terms, who cares what you call yourself? You know what you are and that’s it. You could call yourselves "The Care Bear Patrol for Freedom" and it won't make a difference. You would still know what you are and so would others.

My suggestion to you and others is to perhaps try to go more main stream on how you talk, act, and dress at the range. You are scaring away the best asset you have in the future....New Shooters.

I think we can all agree it’s petty what the range is doing, but they must do what they have to, to survive and bring in new shooters. If you don’t like it, go elsewhere, or deal with it.

 

[StopTheGrays]

LEOs do not practice there then? From the rules they gave you it sounded like they were describing a tactical team...except for the militia part.

I am surprised they did not say no EBRs allowed either.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I am surprised they did not say no EBRs allowed either.

Because that would just be silly.

Public perception:

Unwashed, shave-headed guy in camo with single-shot .22 shooting at UN Soldier Targets ------> militia/racist/nutjob preparing for either UN invasion or the RAHOWA.

Guy in jeans and clean polo shirt with AR-15 shooting at bullseye ----> off-duty cop, Hi-Power competitor, Iraq veteran and local businessman who enjoys plinking, etc.


Smart of them to keep a low profile while letting their clients get in training on proper military-type rifles

-MV

 

[scout26]

While I agree with MV and HeyPete, some response/feedback to said range is needed.

What's "Military Style" Training ???? A CMP clinc ??? How about an RWVA Appleseed shoot ???

My club closes our rifle range a couple of Saturday's and Sunday's during the year so that several Army ROTC detachments and a couple of Army and Naval Reserve units can get some practice in because they'd have to drive 50+ miles to the nearest range and then go through the trouble of dealing with the Army's own bureaucracy to shoot at the DOD/DA training area in Joliet. Compared to the the $10-$15 dollars per head we charge them for the (CMP) ammo, plus we supply the AR-15's and provide free instruction from our NRA certified Rifle/Pistol instructors. Plus other members volunteer our time to serve as coaches/range safeties/helpers, etc.. If that's not "Military Style" training, then I don't know what is.


I guess my Pink Urban Indoor Tactical Camo lounge pants (that Mrs Scout bought for me a as joke........I think ) would get me kicked out (and not just for poor taste/fashion sense, and NO, I will NOT post a picture.)

Yes, the range is free to set the rules, and your free to either follow them, go somewhere else, or start your own range.

But I would suggest a sit-down with the range "powers that be", and see if you can work out/clarify the issues.

 

[thirty-thirty]

Who really "pushes stereotypes"? Who really enforces "political correctness"?
I agree that young/new shooters going to a gun range or gun show the first time might be alienated by non "political correctness" because they have been brainwashed by Hollywood/mass media and publik skoolz.

I agree that a private gun range has the right to surrender to "political correctness" or disallow people who dress like those the media has stereotyped.

But I also have the right not to patronize establishments that spinelessly surrender to these manipulative forces and I will exercise that right.

Like the original post. We have already lost....if we let mass media and Hollywood bully us around.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

We have already lost....if we let mass media and Hollywood bully us around.

We have already lost ... if we set ourselves in permanent opposition to mainstream American culture, rather than as an integral aspect of it.


-MV

 

[thirty-thirty]

We have already lost ... if we set ourselves in permanent opposition to mainstream American culture, rather than as an integral aspect of it.

"Mainstream American Culture" today is a product of mass media/Hollywood. If we keep following their lead as they define "Mainstream American culture" where will they lead us?
Surrender is not a good strategy, IMO.

 

[LoveMyCountry]

When I go to the range it is to stay proficient for personal defense. I like to use silhouette or photo targets to remind myself that if it happens, I will not be shooting a ten ring but a real person. It's not PC, but I want to see the face looking at me and the hands pointing a weapon at me.

I believe that this kind of PC garbage will cause even more Militia type groups to form for the simple reason that they cannot practice, look or talk the way the want to.

Someone who being different, odd or downright strange does not mean they are bad. If everyone had to be just like me, it would be a sad world. If no one could be like me... it would be even worse.

LoveMyCountry

 

[JohnL2]

Well, I am going to assume that we in the firearms enthusiast community are well aware that there are some who are a little, well, paranoid.
Call them militia types, survivalists, whatever, they are out there. And like it or not, some people think most of us are like them.

I know, it gets tiring and annoying. It is kind of like saying every rotten strain of any particular profession or pursuit is representative of the whole.
The most annoying thing is that the media will always concentrate on the worst, and hardly ever the best.
Is it any wonder we have such an image problem?

Range rules should be about safety. If someone is causing a disturbance then it should be up to the range authority to ask that person to leave. You do get a few guys out there with a really bad attitude, and I don't think anyone wants to be on the range along with them.

 

[SoCalShooter]

The fight is not over. I can understand why this range does that. They want to make weapons more "friendly" to new shooters and anti's. I believe they should allow all types of sillohuets but they dont have to sell them. Just limit what you sell as a policy of target shooting but allow others to shoot sillohouets.

 

[ALS]

I'm glad my shooting school doesn't have rules like that.
Most of us wear BDU's (CAMO and Black), use the same weapons that the elite Snipers in the Mideast use, shoot at man size silhouettes.
My instructors back grounds range from US Marine Scout Sniper instructors, Marine and Army Snipers, Rangers, Seals, and Ex Military some who spent 2 - 3 tours in the Jungles of Viet Nam as Snipers. I've shot with Justice Dept, Army and Marine Snipers, FBI, DEA, DIA, LE SRU's (SWAT) units , and average American shooters like the people on this board.
God is this a great country or what?

I understand where the local ranges can get nervous with the Media and Anti-Gun crowd just looking to pounce on anything that looks UN-PC.
Many just don't want to put up with the crap that these types want to give them. I also agree that the shooters at these clubs need to stand up at those clubs and make their voices heard. Too many want to just get along.

 

[1911JMB]

The range I go to rarely has someone show up wearing camo. If it happens usually its just a hunting coat. At the indoor range I used to go to a swat officer showed up with a MP5, a couple handguns and an AR. He was dressed up in the most rediculous crap I have ever seen. Its people like this guy that keep the tacticool business alive and well. As far as I'm concerned he may as well have had thick glasses, dress pants, a shirt and tie and a pocket protector with 8 pens in it. He was a major nerd. It seemed stupid to me and I'm sure it could have intimidated new shooters.

I have no problem with people dressing or acting like idiots if they don't hurt anyone, but it sure won't hurt my feelings if a private establishment prohibits it.

 

[Outlaws]

I think you could make a scene. Tell them to call the cops when you show up in camo. That is discrimination. They are not allowed to prevent you from doing anything outside of mandating shoes and shirts and pants. The pattern is not up to them. As long as it isn't offensive text, they can't do squat. Just show up, tell them suck it, and let them take further measures.

 

[gunsmith]

Show up in really baggy jeans with yer underwear showing

playing "rap" real loud from yer cars and making gang symbols with yer hands.

Really though, I would stay the heck away from a place like that even though I rarely wear camo.
The man size silhouettes though are important for two in the chest and one in the head.
Heck with the pc excrement, I like to practice headshots


When I lived in SF only one range would play the pc game and everyone went elsewhere.

spend yer money elsewhere...where is this dang range?

 

[JesseL]

Outlaws

I'm afraid you're mistaken. If the range is a non-government operation, they have the right to refuse service to anyone (with a few exceptions for race, religion, sex, etc). They could kick you out for not having pierced nipples if they were so inclined, and if you don't like it they can have you arrested for trespassing.

 

[Juna]

Get a petition together with all of the local shooters you know and boycott the place. Present them with the petition signed by as many people as possible. That's a ridiculous infringement of your I & II A rights. What are these nut jobs doing owning and running a gun shop/shooting range?

 

[Prince Yamato]

I think civilians dressing in camo and playing soldier is ridiculous. It would be like the ultra safety-concious dressing in long coats and firehats playing firefighter everytime there was a grill fire. There's a time for playing and a time to grow up. I'm not a cop or soldier, therefore, I don't tress like one. I'm a civilian, so I dress like one. That being said, it's your constitutional right to be the biggest oddball that you want to be, but just remember that anywhere you go, you become an ambassador for the gun community as a whole and if you act like an a-hole to those outside the community, they'll think the gun community as a collective, are a bunch of camo-wearing, conspiracy-hawking a-holes.

 

[Taurus 66]

It's them wanting power over you. It doesn't seem to be enough we already have to abide by federal, state, and local laws, but the workplace too. I can understand a good company policy is in order, but all too often silly rules are mixed in. Silly or not we have to abide by them. Why?? Because we are paid a salary to comply .. in part.

A range doesn't pay you to comply. You pay them. Remember this as they have forgotten.

 

[JesseL]

That being said, it's your constitutional right to be the biggest oddball that you want to be, but just remember that anywhere you go, you become an ambassador for the gun community as a whole and if you act like an a-hole to those outside the community, they'll think the gun community as a collective, are a bunch of camo-wearing, conspiracy-hawking a-holes.

The perception that any individual is representative of (or an ambassador for) any particular group they may resemble, is one of the greatest social challenges to liberty that our nation faces. In an enlightened world, an individual at large would never be judged to represent anyone but himself.

The urge to lump people together this way is destructive, lazy thinking.

 

[3 gun]

Is this a range open to the public or is it a members only range? If it's members only, is there a BOD you can vote out? We had something like this happen at a range I shoot at over FA fire. The first BOD went along with banning FA because the "new neighbors" didn't like it. The new BOD told the guys "get over it" we were here first. They still limit the times of day and which range you can use FA on but FA is back!

 

[cbsbyte]

There range their rules. It is a major liablity issue to have uniformed civilians running around training for combat, especially in some state, like Mass. On top of that I personally would never go to a range which allowed "milita" groups to train for WWIII, or the next civil war. The milita people I have met seemed a bit mentaly unstable, and should not be trusted with firearms.

 

[Low-Sci]

Actually, the silhouette targets not being allowed is a psychological thing.

During earlier wars like ww2, soldiers trained on bullseye targets. Its also known that it was very, very common for most soldiers to not fire their weapons in combat during those times.

Since WW2, the percentage of troops who actually fire in combat has gone up exponentially, due to several changes in the way soldiers are trained. One of those changes was the replacement of the bullseye target with the silhouette target.

The idea is that you will be training to fire on a human-like figure, hence your reservations on actually firing on a person will be fewer in combat if your training and what you train with more closely resembles what you will face in combat.

Or so the theory goes. The book "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society" by Dave Grossman details this phenomenon and several others. Its an excellent book; I would recommend it very highly.

 

[sm]

What is the Act that to the effect of a gathering of certain types of "assembly" denotes paramilitary training? Seems to me there was one and since Homeland Security this/ these are even more defined.

Private Property , more PC, More Family Friendly...well the truth is, times have been changing. One of the reasons many feel instead of bashing and trashing and being uncivil on THR, especially L&P and S&T - more effective use of time would be Activism with Preserving Freedom, RKBA, Attracting and Introducing more shooters and ...

Brian, not picking on you or anyone else. Just I recall start up of a few ranges, and as we discussed before, only about 10% do any work, and only about 4% of the 10% do the REAL work.

I do not own camo, never really used by my Mentors, we never saw a need in it - except for the ones Marketing it to make a buck.
I have no problem if some do...
Point being gun owners tend to divide themselves more than Anti Gun folks simply by alienating each other between personal choice (bird vs deer hunter, benchrest vs Cowboy action...etc) and pushing away fence sitters that might be attracted.
Heck - instead of being a jerk on the Internet , go clean the restroom at your club so a lady and kid are not grossed out.

One club I was involved in kept having every little bitty questioned. Literally "nickel and dime-ing us to death. Burden of Proof if you will - club met, and maintained all these proposed rules and all.

One member dropped $15k of his own money and said to take that money and
get an independent expert in noise to do a test. Club was fine, expert presented the noise from one of the complaint folks shop was more in violation.
We basically went on the offensive instead of having to defend or prove.
Complaints and huffing and puffing quit - they did not have the coins to fight back, and...we found code violations they had.

I have attended some Anti Gun meetings, know thy enemy and all that...they look for anything to use against us and all it takes is one person to complain " my child was scared of all the camo with the war in Iraq and all..." and folks listen that make judgments on codes, insurance...oh insurance.

If someone in the Insurance Company does not like guns, these folks like so many others that toss out information - unsupported, can have a huge effect on rules, regs and all .
Folks do not check into what the Executive said, just the fact he said it can play a role.

Shamelessly borrowing from a song...

A little less uncivil and a lot more action

 

[Dr.Rob]

No camo? No use of the word paramilitary or militia? No 'group training.'

Guess a CMP match is not in their future.

And as far as 'group training' does three guys in camo pants sighting in hunting rifles count as 'group training?'

That seems silly to me. I don't normally wear camo but when the weather sucks I'd rather muddy up some GI surplus clothes I bought for hunting than a pair of jeans, or a tie for that matter.

As for the targets, that's getting more and more common, particularly at state run ranges... but it's usually picture-type targets that are banned. IDPA and IPSC are silohuette targets, so I guess those are out too. OOps, they were out before under 'group training'.

I'm not anoyed at the idea of a dress code... I've suggested many a time that dressing better will help get our message across. Like at political events, etc.

But AT the range? Come on people, that's a wee bit over the top. If I shucked out $200 for an "outfitter' wool camo jacket at Cabela's I sure would be pissed to have a range officer tell me it's unwelcome.

Waffen has a GOOD POINT:

My suggestion to you and others is to perhaps try to go more main stream on how you talk, act, and dress at the range. You are scaring away the best asset you have in the future....New Shooters.

WE are the ambassadors of our sport, use common sense and courtesy when conducting yourself in public.

 

[sm]

Game & Fish Range.

There is a Stop sign before one goes on down the road. All guns must be unloaded. This means no speed loaders, no magazines. Even the CCW folks are questioned and if a CCW is loaded, last I heard anyway, they are asked to turn around, go back down the road and unload - or - leave all together, if the RO does not like you.

I do not go there, all sorts of over the top rules. Using the Skeet field is a nightmare...

RO actually has been known to stand there and watch one get gear out of vehicle and watch one open range bag - looking for a loaded gun, speed loader, or magazine.

I got pissed, I mean pissed and I was with some known shooters. One little boy had loaded all by himself the magazine to his new Marlin .22 rifle. He just was real proud of doing it all by himself.
"Look dad, see what I can do , I practiced" and he pulled this out of his little jeans pocket and RO saw it.

RO asked them to leave. Just a kid! 5 rounds of .22 ammo in a mag, and what is a dad to do, frisk his kid?

I was being as nice as could " this is the kids new gun, he wants to shoot it..."
"He broke rules, I do not like you or the dad, and the kid has no business with a rifle that takes a magazine".

We drove the extra distance to private property for that kid to shoot his new gun.

Little fella was upset, and what kind of impression did that have? NEGATIVE about Ranges and Folks that run them. Took some doing to explain to the kid, but he never ever wanted to back to that place.
He did not want to attend a kids event the G&F was having for kids...

Can't blame him. I refuse to go to that range myself, and tell everyone not to, and warn them.