It's over, we've lost

[Caimlas]

Is this in rural CO, or near Boulder or Denver?

Now, I don't know what kind of event you had planned, but for me, I'd not have been planning 'militia' training, just general riflery and shooting. Besides the fact that they're mutually exclusive, according to our Constitution.

If it's rural, I'd go anyway. We'd not wear "camo". We'd wear BDUs, maybe the black SWATie type or ODs - just kidding. We'd all wear common "civvie" clothes of the outdoor quality, just not "cammo". But in general we'd want to be dressed appropriately for the activities at hand while attempting to look as benign as possible). That might include OD, tan, or black cargo pants; and photographer vests - hey, you're guys, you have no fashion sense, right?

We'd use other things for targets, like maniquins (you can do that, right?), or bales of hay or what have you. We'd do "self defensive shooting training" - room clearing or whatever you've got planned.

One thing to keep in mind is that when someone says "militia", they're not meaning 'militia', they're meaning a bunch of fat-arse guys in BDUs who talk about shooting UN, Chinese, Mexican troops, police, black people - whatever - agressors but rarely shoot and have no actual ability. Basically uncivilized paranoids. Don't be them.

Don't just find another place; try and win their "hearts and minds". if you go somewhere else, you'll enforce their paranoid beliefs. Go, act civilly, friendly, and leave the place better than when you arrive (pick up trash, brass - whatever).

In other words, I'd flaunt my "militianess" just as much as possible without crossing the line. If they want to be PC and specific, well... do have a backup plan just in case you <b>do</b> get kicked out, at least. And then you can sue the bastards for contract negation/bait and switch (they <b>did</b> give you these rules as a part of the contract? IE, you didn't agree, and then have them change the rules on you? I believe that's illegal.)

 

[Wedge]

Finally got my wife to accept my open invitation to the range. It was chilly in Austin yesterday (well chilly to those used to Austin) and going to an outdoor range so we were wearing good jeans, sweaters, she had on a black wool pea-coat and I had on a nice black leather jacket. The only non nice thing I was wearing was my baseball cap.

As we were leaving and packing up a guy came in all dressed in camo. My wife was polite enough not to snicker. We figure it was probably the warmest stuff he had to wear, and while we thought it was a little goofy he probably couldn't understand why we were wearing fairly nice clothes out to the range.

I think that the dress code is a bit silly, but if my wife hadn't known me for years she might have had a different opinion seeing that guy on the range since it was her first time there. I guess I am undecided but wanted to post a recent experience.

 

[ChiefThunderstick]

To get Rosie on our side, offer her a side of beef for lunch. Seriously though we can't let anyone bully us. As someone else here said, you should pow wow with the range officials to make them define and delineate what they actually mean. If it is not to your group's and your liking you are free to take yourselves and your money elsewhere. You should inform them of your decision. Money talks and BS walks and in this case so may your money.

 

[Caimlas]

Since WW2, the percentage of troops who actually fire in combat has gone up exponentially, due to several changes in the way soldiers are trained. One of those changes was the replacement of the bullseye target with the silhouette target.

I don't suppose the advent of video games has hurt much, either!

 

[Cosmoline]

Why not go in OD as USGI's from a prior war. Are they going to kick you out for wearing uniforms that celebrate our greatest heroes?

You said this was in Grants Pass? What range is it specifically?

 

[Caimlas]

The perception that any individual is representative of (or an ambassador for) any particular group they may resemble, is one of the greatest social challenges to liberty that our nation faces. In an enlightened world, an individual at large would never be judged to represent anyone but himself.

The urge to lump people together this way is destructive, lazy thinking.

So are you telling me that it's not a good idea to automatically avoid a group of two guys wearing hooded sweatshirts and baggy pants, late at night? I just thought that was, you know, descriminatory judgement and a wise move, not lazy thinking.

Careful what you say, not all things are universal.

 

[Monkeybear]

Time to chip in.

My theory:

There is a particular crowd or a specific situation that they have encountered and wish to avoid. My guess would be Militia Yahoos (nothing against militias, just the ones full of yahoos) or 18 year old guys fresh outta highshcool scaring the crap outta people. Face it, people (especially teenagers) in matching outfits with guns taking crazy-**** scare most people. Scared people tend to seek other places to enjoy their hobbies.

If three guys in camo came in and sighted their rifles I doubt they are gonna kick them out. If an ROTC came in to train Im sure there wouldnt be a problem.

 

[Monkeybear]

So are you telling me that it's not a good idea to automatically avoid a group of two guys wearing hooded sweatshirts and baggy pants, late at night? I just thought that was, you know, descriminatory judgement and a wise move, not lazy thinking.

Careful what you say, not all things are universal.

I avoid everybody late at night.

 

[Travis Lee]

I don't have a "militia", I don't even have a "group", but I would be put off by any new set of arbitrary rules.

I don't have camos, but I like the abundance of pockets in BDUs, roomy in the butt, too! Any body ever try to put a bunch of magazines in tight blue jeans?

I don't ever expect to have to shoot circles, or squares, or diamonds. If I ever need to shoot something, it will likely be human shaped. If I were a hunter I'd practice with critter shaped targets.

I don't believe for one minute that the PC rules will end with those now in place. That range has a growing case of range fascism, they'll be limiting the weapons shooters can use, the number of rounds you can load or fire in a minute. Will they ban mil-surp ammo cans? Will they ban combat boots?

I'll bet a nickel their "reasons" for throwing people out will get progressively more specious as people actually abide by their rules, and their daily "kick" of throwing someone out for infractions thin out.

I am really sick of this "bend over backwards and we'll win over the anti-gun people" mentality.

FEH!

--Travis--

 

[djpullen]

Good thing our founding fathers aren't still around. They wouldn't be allowed to shoot anywhere by most of THR's standards. Those radical militia bas*****. The only camo I own are the clothes I go hunting in (only wear them when I go hunting) and the stuff Uncle Sam issued to me. I sold most of it and haven't worn any of it since I got my DD214. Let us silence any talk about one of the main reasons that the second amendment was put into the constitution. Defense from foreign invaders. Do any of you guys think that the UN has nothing but the best of intentions for us? I hope none of you guys ever go to Knob Creek machine gun shoot. You'd probably call the fed hotline 10 minutes after you walk in the door.

I wonder how many non gunners R Lee Ermey has coverted with his show mail call. We all know how mamby pamby he is.

 

[Molon Labe]

At my range, militias are encouraged, and nearly everyone wears BDUs.

I guess I should mention that the range is on my property. And I host a militia training session once a month.

 

[Molon Labe]

I find it fascinating that so many people here profess to know so much about the militia, yet they have never attended a training session.

You guys remind me of the anti-gunners. They profess to know so much about the "dangers" of firearms, yet most have never shot a gun.

 

[Declaration Day]

I'm with you on this one, Molon Labe. I'd say fewer than 1 in 10 "militia guys" fit the descriptions mentioned in this thread. We have none of them in the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia.

Of course, the nut-job ones are the ones who attract attention, and people like you and me are left to clean up the militia's image.

It's just like when sheeple see a gun-related crime on the local news, and think that all gun owners must be criminals.

 

[hso]

What's wrong with talking to the range operators without all the hyperbole? Find out why they've worded things the way they have because it sounds like they're reacting to some specific issue. Work with them to understand that there's another side of the coin they have overlooked.

No Cammo - What do they expect vets who have gotten back from overseas to wear? What do they do when 3 or 4 guys that served together show up in their old BDUs?

No anthropomorphic targets - Under what circumstances? Aren't they needed for IPSC/IDPA/SD training?

No groups self-identified as Militia or Paramilitary - I can't see the other side of the coin on this one.

No group military-style training - This sounds like it's linked to the Militia statement. What do they mean "military-style" training? What are the bounds on this general description.

All this sounds like they're reacting to a group that came in, discussed coming in or was discussed in an industry group. Many ranges don't want a bunch of bubbas in cammo swaggering in claiming to be a self-proclaimed "militia" training in "combat" tactics instead of SD techniques.

Just talk to them without rancor or hysteria so that you understand what they intend.

1. When your group arrives be aware that the words Militia or paramilitary may not be used while at our range.

2. While an individual might show up wearing cammos, the entire group may not be so attired as it would indicate a paramilitary type organization.

3. No silhouette targets of ANY style may be used. (We have allowed these in the past and we've taken a lot of flak from both non-members and members using our range.)

4. No military style training, as a group, is allowed.

 

[cbsbyte]

Just think it is ILEAGAL in MA to even shoot a human shaped target.

Even on the PD range we had to use a target shaped like a milk bottle

Wrong, that info is inaccurate. It is not illegal for people to use human shaped targets. It is only illegal for some special types of clubs, like PD ranges, to use those types of targets. I know I believe that too but it proved to be unfounded info spread by people who don't know the actual law.

 

[History Prof]

Get a petition together with all of the local shooters you know and boycott the place. Present them with the petition signed by as many people as possible. That's a ridiculous infringement of your I & II A rights. What are these nut jobs doing owning and running a gun shop/shooting range?

No infringement here if this is a private range (which is what the OP seemed to imply). While I think the policies are ridiculous, and I agree with everything else you said, the basic rule is "their land, their rules." Private individulals have the right to restrict your civil liberties on their property. Remember when Tim Robbins got all upset that "the baseball hall of fame has no respect for the first amendment?" Tough Noogies on Tim Robbins! They didn't have to respect his first amendment rights. They're not a branch of government.

 

[280PLUS]

3. No silhouette targets of ANY style may be used. (We have allowed these in the past and we've taken a lot of flak from both non-members and members using our range.)

The reasoning seems quite clear right here to me. Apparently they have been taking "flak" which can EASILY lead to this:

The range opponents have raised an array of alleged issues in their two state lawsuits,
including: safety, noise, zoning, property devaluation, and the environment.

All it takes is a few folks. Actually ONE person is leading the charge over at Metacon. He happens to be a lawyer so he's causing THEM to spend all their money as he causes these problems in his spare time for gratis. What I see in this thread is a lot of "What about me and my rights!?" as opposed to "What about the range and the potential for legal battles it may have to fight to stay open?" Just my $0.02 of course...

 

[19Turkeys]

I am a member of the board of directors of JCSA in Grants Pass, OR.

For the record, I am unaware of these range "policies". I called our president, and she is unaware of any communication to BozemanMT or his group outlining any type of "code of conduct" during his event.

What you may have received is a communication from one officer or employee attempting to implement his/her own personal agenda and not the official policy of JCSA.

There is an Executive Board meeting tomorrow night. Our president has printed out this thread, and she will be discussing it at the meeting to find out the source of this communication.

Yours,

Steve W.

 

[kungfuhippie]

For once PRk wins

I got back from the indoor handgun range where out of 20 targets only 3 were not sillouette.

By the way the black sillouette I was shooting at took 50 rounds but finally went down. He's on the back of my office door. told all the normal lunchtime network video gamers that instead of a virtual beretta 92 I shot a real one and next time they should come too. Mixed responses. It's funner to holepunch paper at 50 feet than "kill" bad guys in my computer. Though where the range isn't an option I'm glad halflife is.

 

[280PLUS]

Welcome Mr Turkeys, that's a pretty interesting twist to the story. We'll be anxious to hear how it turns out. Thanks!

 

[Billll]

To paraphrase Arlo:

You can shoot anything you want,
We're not that far from Bozemans Longmont.

I had a co-worker once who was a VMI man, and firmly believed in putting on the camo and taking to the woods to fight off the invading commies. I wasn't convinced that this was a real likely scenario, but told him that if he needed food or ammo, to come back into town and look me up, as I would become a mugger, in those conditions. Got a long, thoughtful silence from him.
Or maybe he was just trying not to laugh.
Camo means fitting into your environment. I go to the range wearing whatever is on top. Exclusively.

 

[Cosmoline]

19Turkeys, thank you for that clarification!

 

[19Turkeys]

To further clarify things, three or so years ago a shooter used a very realistic Arab silhouette paper target on the range. He then walked off & left it.

Other shooters saw it and felt it was offensive. Thus, the JCSA board did state that realistic silhouette targets of individuals of any nationality were inappropriate. IDPA style square black silhouette targets are not an issue.

Personally, I think this is a reasonable thing. America is a melting pot and we firearm owners come from many ethnic backgrounds. "Generic" silhouette targets are one thing. Targets representing specific nationalities are in poor taste in my humble opinion.

I'll let the group know more as this unfolds.

Steve W.

 

[gunsmith]

19turkeys

Sir, thank you for joining our forum.
I would consider it good fun to shoot at a picture of Bin Laden
and after 9/11/01 my local range couldn't keep enough in stock..

is that also unacceptable by your board?

imnsho (not so humble opinion) shooting at a pic of a terrorist like Yasser Arafat and/or Bin Laden is just plain ol fun.
Shooting at a picture of a generic Arab person I would feel that was innapropiate but as long as he/she followed range safety rules I can't see much problem with it.

My old range insisted you clean up after yourself.

Anyway, thank you very much for joining our fine forum

 

[hso]

19Turkeys,

Welcome to THR and thank you for taking the time to get the facts on this issue