Just for our CCW GUYS AND GALS ONLY(for fun)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vic303 ~ the problem was taken care of. :)

beaucoup ammo ~ I'm familiar with how it is in border states, having lived for quite awhile near the border in AZ. My observation then, and my conviction now, is that criminals don't obey laws, and that illegal aliens don't bother paying taxes. Concealed-carry requirements are, in effect, both laws and taxes -- and as the requirements become stricter, the related taxes become higher. Such requirements primarily affect only people who obey laws and pay taxes, and thus they disproportionately affect honest people like my next door neighbors.

pax
 
You need guns..but you need guidelines to keep guns out of the hands of the endless wave of aliens and the people.

Interesting....I live about 28 miles off the border with nothing between us and it but ranch land (which the 2000 census determined was in one of the poorest areas in the country). I live in the area you are talking about. You still don't get it. Criminals are all doing these things already. Criminals will always be able to get guns, and will always carry them. Your assertion that we can "control" who can legally carry guns by keeping stringent requirements is meaningless. So what if we can? That won't affect those who depend on breaking the law for their lifestyle and livelihood. California has much more stringent requirements for carrying a gun than Texas in that in many places only the ultra-rich or politically-connected can get permits, would you hold up California's violent crime as representative of the success of your policy?

There will always be more law-abiding citizens than criminals (we would certainly hope). The absolute best way to deter and address crime is to make it as cheap and painless as possible for ALL of the law-abiding citizens to arm themselves ALL the time.
 
Give The Neighbor A Gun

"A citizen of a foreign country, wishing to enter the U.S., generally must first obtain a visa, either a nonimmigrant visa for temporary stay, or an immigrant visa for permanent residence."

The lines at the INS Office (1 block off I-35N) run out the door and down the block. Why? They all want in.

I own a ranch outside Hondo. The tracks I find heading North aren't made by white tails wearing Adidas.

As for California's requirements...I think Texas' are just right.

Thanks
 
So even though Texas's concealed carry requirements could be much less expensive and much less arduous, they are actually just right because there are lots of aliens, illegal or otherwise, who walk across your ranch to the immigration office.....makes perfect sense to me, now. :confused:
 
beaucoup, I totally disagree with you. And not only do I disagree with you, as a CCW instructor, I go out of my way to teach poor people. I charge less than any other local instructors that I'm aware of, and I've taught many folks with the provision that they pay me when they are able to. It is bad enough that the state needs money for the background check, but there is no reason to make it expensive.

I grew up dirt poor. That family from pax's example would have been the Joneses we were trying to keep up with. :) Poor folks need CCW just as much, (and based on where they live) even more so that the middle class and affluent.

As for keeping guns out of the hands of illegals? Huh? Your train of thought has elluded me. Illegal aliens are breaking the law anyway. And even if you made getting a CCW easier/cheaper, they are still in the country illegally and won't be able to get the permit anyway. So what you are worried about are American citizens who are poorer and browner than you are, carrying guns.

Keep in mind that the criminals you are worried about are already armed.

Personally I would love to see Alaska style carry in more states.
 
Funny how many scored 249/250 on the TX CHL test, including yours truly.

I had a ragged hole in the middle of the five ring with only a few strays slightly outside the main group . . . but there was a round down below the navel in my target. What the . . . ???

It turned out the woman in the lane next to me missed her target entirely a number of times, so I figure one of her errant shots put the extra hole in my target. :(

FWIW, the TX test is supposedly modeled on "typical" qualification requirements for sworn LEOs.
 
"Huh?"

I'm pointing out the number of folks getting immigrant visas for permanent residence. Period. They are allowed to carry CHL's in Texas. And, rich or poor, there are many people from Mexico moving into this country. You imply I might have something against poor people?! Read all the posts..not even close! I'm in South Texas, Correa..have lived here for over 50 years..and am surprised at your assertions.

As moderators you and pax lead by example. I take it "elitist".."silly" and Your :"So what you are worried about are American citizens who are poorer and browner than you are, carrying guns" are acceptable in exchanging views here. Have you lowered the bar or is this business as usual?

Regardless of misinterpretations and tendencies to rush to conclusion, I enjoy the discourse..but doubt I'll take the low road that's been paved today.

Take Care
 
The ones who are going to the trouble of getting visas for permanent residence are the ones who are following the law. Is there some reason they should be denied the right to defend themselves?
 
Bad Boy

Not at all! And it ISN'T incumbant upon instructors to teach their classes in English either. Only key phrases like "I have a hand gun."

Thanks
 
After 9/11 My Views Regarding Immigration Changed

I'm in favor of the current Texas CHL exams as they are today. Not as lax as some states or as outrageously stringent as others..period.

"In Texas licensees are found to be more law-abiding than the average person."..NRA

I attribute that to our exam here in Texas, Bad Boy.

That was my point this morning.. and is my final point on the subject now.

Take Care
 
CWP holders in all states are found to be more law abiding than the average person... not just in Texas.

You've failed to provide any logical reason as to why getting a CWP should be out of the reach of anyone who qualifies for one. The reason for that is that there *is* no good reason, and fixing the problem is supposedly one of the things that the NRA is lobbying for across the country. And, they've been doing well recently. Good day...
 
No low road, but being poorer and browner than most here ( :) ) I can't really see any other logical reasoning behind your assertions. The people who goe through the immigration process, and get their legal visas, and jump through all of the hoops should be allowed the same rights as everybody else.

Would you have denied somebody like Marko Kloos or Oleg Volk their right to keep and bear arms before they obtained their citizenship? Or would that not have been an issue with a German and a Russian?
 
Correia

I see you as a proud person, as we ALL our. Your only problem..in my opinion...is assuming things without knowing who you're talking to OR what Their background may be, Correia.

This day was worth it..if for no other reason than learning from you and Pax just how low the bar can go here..as the Moderators certainly aren't exempt from the rules any more than the rest of us. Educational And Informative. Two good things.

Take Care
 
beaucoup ammo ~

Sometimes, when I'm posting, I forget that there are human beings hidden behind the screen I see. Please forgive me for being insensitive; it wasn't intentional.

I said your argument -- that people who are already breaking laws can be deterred from doing so simply by passing more restrictive laws -- was silly, and so it is. But I in no way meant to imply that you are yourself silly. If you took it that way, I truly am sorry.

The belief that only people rich enough to pay an exorbitant and unnecessary tax should be allowed to exercise a fundamental human right is indeed elitist. I probably should have used a less divisive word than that one, but that word means exactly what I meant to say: that such a belief suggests that wealthy people should have rights that are denied to poorer people. My next door neighbor's right to arm herself is her birthright as an American citizen and as a human being. When people come along and say that the laws must be restrictive, otherwise "less desireable" people might be armed, they are talking about her, and people like her. I can find no other word in the dictionary but "elitist" to describe such a belief.

Since you are not yourself an elitist, I urge you to reconsider your beliefs about who should, and should not, be allowed the "privilege" of bearing arms.

pax
 
TX here.

249/250

I was FTS drills from the short range (two to the pump one to the head)
Instructor fussed at me on the 3 yrd line for doing it, said I might not pass if I missed too many. I continued to put every 3rd shot in the head until we hit the max distance then just took torso shots. I dropped my next to the last shot just .5" below the line.

He passed me.


Smoke
 
245/250, but my "miss" was a .45 caliber hole, and I was shooting a Glock 17 9mm. :rolleyes:

S/F

Farnham
 
We seem to have drifted from the original post, but anyway.

I see three issues here:

1. Training: Yes, I think that CCL applicants should get enough classroom to insure they understand safe handling practices, and how handguns work and how to care for them. Safe storage also comes into this. They also should be knowledgeable about the laws they have to work under, and what is O.K. and what isn't. In my book one can't be over trained or educated, but of course there must be a limit.

2. Shooting expertise: A CCL holder doesn't need the skills of an IPSC champion or competitor, but the do need to be able to hit a target in a critical area in distances up to 10 yards. Further is better, but not necessary for an initial qualification.

3. Cost: Should be kept at an absolute minimum. The right to self-defense belongs to all, rich or poor. It is a human right that should not be based on economics.

For the record. I live in Arizona, and on a clear day I can see mountains on the horizon that are in Mexico. I have absolutely no qualms about the "wrong people" getting CCL licenses. The "wrong people" don't give a zip about laws or licenses anyway. I once knew an old Arizona lawman that put it this way, “I don’t care who carries a gun or how they do it. What I care about is how they use it, and if they use it illegally I’ll do something about it.”
 
Yep, that's me and pax allright. Low road. Yep. Horrible examples.

Answer my question in a straight forward manner then, rather than casting aspersions on the moderation here. Do you have a problem with somebody like Oleg or Marko or Preacherman (who are white and middle class immigrants) exercising their God given right to keep and bear arms, or is it just the Mexicans down in your area who make you uncomfortable?

I don't know your background. I can only go off of what you have posted. And what you have posted here today indicates to me that you take issue with having people armed who are not as worthy as you are. I'm not putting any words in your mouth, or calling you any names. I'm questioning your posts.

You think it is a good idea to have CCW be more expensive and complex than it needs to be, to keep a certain class of people out. When called on this you talked about all of the Mexicans standing in line at the Immigration office. What other conclusion am I supposed to draw?

As for my background, I know Mexicans pretty well. Thanks. They are about like any other group. Most of them are great folks. They have plenty of criminals too. (I was beaten almost to death by a gang of Nortenos, and the closest I ever came to shooting somebody in self defense was an illegal Mexican, at the time I didn't care where he was from, as I was more tuned in to the little pistol in his hand). Do you really for one millisecond believe that the dangerous criminal element gives a hoot what the paper work is like to get a CCW? Do you really think the legal immigrants who take the time to go through the system are the issue? Since these folks end up living in the same neighborhoods as the criminal element you are so worried about, shouldn't they be able to carry firearms to defend themselves?
 
I have to agree with Old Fuff and take say that the a CHL liscense should involve a bit more then filling out some paper work.

I agree with point 1, there does need to be a discussion of the legal ramification of the employment of a CCW, the legality of CC, what exactly entials CC vs. open carry (if your state allows, which I think they all should, but that's a different topic), fire arm safety, and safe storage. Additionally I think that people should spend a significant amount of time in class dry firing from their CC rig, and in general working on proficency.

I feel that demonstrating proficeny in any form of controlled test environment isn't the most effective method. Look at the normal range average of LEO vs. actual LOD shooting averages. Then again I don't have any suggestions on how to do it better so I say leave it as it stands.

I completely agree that the cost is way to high currently. Beyond the processing fee for getting you your CHL card (which if the information is kept on your DL, wouldn't be a factor), there really shouldn't be anything else to worry about. I can do get my DL at a state owned and run facility, and don't have to provide my own car even. Why can't the state provide a classroom, range, and ammo?

Ideally all states would allow open carry, thus removing the majority of the issue. I do feel all firearms owners and beares should have some training and schooling (whether that's home schooled or by the state is up to the individual) and that the state should assist in everyway possible an individual in exercising their right.

-Jenrick
 
Old Fuff ~

First, I agree with you that there are a lot of things that people who carry weaponry ought to know. I agree with you so strongly on that point that I spend a lot of my time volunteering to teach these things to people who need to know them. A person who carries a pistol but has never armed himself with the legal, tactical, and practical knowledge of how and when to use it, is worse than ignorant in my book.

But I utterly, categorically reject the notion that a person ought to be prohibited from exercising a fundamental human right until such time as some government bureaucrat has rubber-stamped their ability to do so.

Furthermore, it is my contention that when the laws are set so that people have to shoot to a minimum standard, the cost of available training goes up while the quality of such training goes down.

The costs go up because trainers have to be certified, approved, and rubber-stamped by the state. They have to pay whatever guild fees the bureaucrats demand.

The quality goes down because each instructor is no longer responsible to his own personal conscience as to what his students learn and how well the students learn it. He doesn't develop his own curriculum and thus he no longer has much personally invested in what his students learn. Instead he is given a list of very minimal standard requirements. The students aren't expected to master the requirements, either, but only to meet some (usually low) standard score to which the instructor will be able to point if the student ever gets in trouble.

The requirements might vary from one state to another but they all have one thing in common: they encourage people who have met the minimum score to think of themselves as "trained." Individuals begin to believe that if they can pass a very (very very) simple test of marksmanship, they are equipped to enter into deadly combat and not just survive, but prevail. Generally speaking, this isn't really true; people who have met the minimum requirement and have learned nothing else are really not yet equipped to win a deadly encounter -- although even in such a poorly trained status, they may be lightyears ahead of an ordinary unarmed person. The problem is that people stop there, and because the government says it's good enough, they believe it really is.

In addition to all that, every required hurdle is just that -- a hurdle -- which will eliminate a certain small but predictable number of people from obtaining a CCW. Higher costs mean fewer poor people. More hassle means fewer busy people. More intrusive screening means fewer cynical people. Written testing means fewer dyslexic people and no illiterate people.

Meanwhile, my next-door neighbor still has the basic human right to protect herself.

Doesn't she?

pax

That a free citizen should have to go before a committee, hat in hand, and pray for permission to bear arms - fantastic! Arm your daughter, sir, and pay no attention to petty bureaucrats. -- Robert Heinlein
 
I had to shoot twice, long story, but my car was broken in to and my documents stolen, I shot 250 for 250 the first time 250 the second too. funny thing was i had three 38 sized holes in my target too, but the guy next to me, a retired FPS (federal protection service) agent was trying to qualify for a permit to get a psd job. he was shooting a 4" 686 with 38 wadcutters. I was shooting a paraord p13 the first time, a Colt Commander the second, The FPS guy made some comment about "auto for show, wheel gun for go...." Instructor gave him some advice on not being hasty to jump to judgement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top