Looking for a short defensive carbine

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Colden

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I'm looking for a rifle or carbine with approximately 16" of barrel length and as close to the legal 26" overal length limit as possible. I want it to be quick and light, and most likely semi-auto (as opposed to lever, pump, bolt, etc. etc.). 10+ rounds capacity and detachable magazines would be nice bonuses.

It seems that most AK/AR rifles and other commonly available carbines are all at least 34-35" and thus too lengthy for my desired application.

Also, since this is to be a defensive carbine, a decent caliber that gets enough powder burned in a short barrel is surely a must.

Note: I really really don't want to go "real SBR" route.

Any suggestions?
 
M1 30 Carbine is a nice gun for what I hear you describing.

carbine1.jpg

aom110n.jpg


SB_CARBINE_C.jpg
 
A 26" OAL with a 16" barrel isn't going to be doable unless you go the way of the bullpup. Bushmaster makes one, and there are stock sets from K-Var (www.k-var.com) that can convert an AK clone to bullpup configuration. There are imported Steyr Augs, but they're +$3k...probably something you don't want to use in a defensive situation.

Bullpups have a whole host of pros and cons, namely they're not lefty friendly, have poor triggers, very short sight radius, slow reloads, and in the case of the converted AK, hard to reach safety.

An M-4 clone can be as short as about 30" with the stock collapsed...I don't know how short an AK is, but they're pretty compact.
 
Preacherman said:
Any basic, generic AK-47 clone (e.g. SAR1, WASR-10, etc.) should do nicely.
Click to expand...

Aren't they generally 35" or so?

The Storm and that bullpup are around 30"

What about something that's 26"? :)
 
An AR with either a CAR stock (in the collapsed position) or with a stock like RRA's "Entry" stock will only be about 30"

Of course a 16" barreled AK with a side folding ACE stock would be pretty short.

Or just go the extra $200 and all the paperwork and get yourself an SBR. An AR-15 with an 11" barrell with a CAR stock would be quite compact.
 
I have to second(or third or fourth) the M1 Carbine. Neither the AK or the AR is as handy as it is. Both are fine weapons but an M1 Carbine with a 15 round Mag filled with softpoints is an AWESOME combination between firepower and compactness.
 
Well, let's see, you want a moderately compact, semi-automatic carbine with a good degree of stopping power and a magazine capacity of at least 10 rounds. Here's a short list of options available:
M-1 Carbine
Beretta Storm
Kel-Tec SU-16
Kel-Tec SUB-2000
Ruger PC-Series (9mm or .40 S&W)
Marlin Camp Carbines (9 or .45 ACP)
Hi-Point (9 or .40)
AK w/ side-folder (my WASR measures 27 1/2" folded, with slant brake)
AR w/ collapsable stock
HK USC
Valkyrie Arms M3A1 Semi-auto Grease Gun
Uzi Carbine w/ 16" bbl
You could also build one using either a Glock or 1911 and a Mech-Tech CCU upper.

Surely, there are other options that I haven't listed. That's all I could think of this time of night.
 
I am trying to imagine holding and using a bullpup and it seems a bit problematic. I don't know. I think I should at least exhaust all other options before going to the bullpup design.

While the M1 Carbine is extremely compact, it also comes to around 35" or so, just like the AK. Hmmm, perhaps an "underfolded" AK is the answer?

I have a SAR-1 (made in 2003) that is still in its original configuration. It came from AIM Surplus with a laminated wooden stock set. I understand that the importer inserts the proper amount of US parts into this rifle, correct? Now that the AWB is gone, is it OK to replace the laminated stock with a Bulgarian under-folder stock such as this: http://www.k-var.com/product.asp?0=270&1=271&3=51

If it is indeed OK, will this K-Var product be compatible with a stamped SAR-1? What do I need to buy to make it work? Is this something I can do with just the screwdriver and no cutting/drilling/filing?

Your input is very much appreciated! Thanks... :)
 
Colden,

Putting an underfolder stock on a SAR-1 is a bit of a challenge, unless you are mechanically inclined and have a good set of tools handy. You would have to drill holes into the reciever to do it. You'd be much better off by putting a Romanian side-folder on it, they use the same screwholes on the trunnion as the wood stock. Since Century uses a Romanian wood stock, you would be switching a foreign part for a foreign part; therefore, no 922r compliance problems.

HTH,
Frank

PS: If you're looking for info on how to mount an underfolder on a SAR-1, try looking around at www.AK47.net .
 
Colden said:
While the M1 Carbine is extremely compact, it also comes to around 35" or so, just like the AK. Hmmm, perhaps an "underfolded" AK is the answer?
Click to expand...
There are Paratrooper M1 Carbines if you like that rifle. Both the AK and the Carbine would be a great short range weapon.

Here's a link to what a Paratrooper M1 Carbine looks like.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/m1carbin.htm
 
I was going to suggest a Paratrooper M1. I see I've been beat. Bullpups arent problematic unless you're a southpaw like I am. Even then holding it isnt a problem, but shooting it is another story.

Zundfolge said:
An AR with either a CAR stock (in the collapsed position) or with a stock like RRA's "Entry" stock will only be about 30"
Click to expand...
Mine is 32.25." Lose the flashider and it would probably be about 31" or so.

I also second the SBR idea. I've heard that .223 really sucks out of an 11" barrel though, I'd rather go with 9mm. Yeah, an internally supressed 9mm upper. On a form 4 M16 lower:drool:

Sorry, got caught up in a wet dream...
 
Since you didn't say 'inexpensive' as one of your criteria...
16" Steyr AUG should fit the bill, but they go for around $3000-4000.

blackauginbox.jpg
:neener:
 
No offense to anyone, but this thing looks insane. :)

Regarding putting an under-folder on a SAR-1. I can't find any instructions or a description of what needs to be done. Does anyone have a link?
 
Colden said:
No offense to anyone, but this thing looks insane. :)

Regarding putting an under-folder on a SAR-1. I can't find any instructions or a description of what needs to be done. Does anyone have a link?
Click to expand...

Slapping a folding stock on would NOT be Federally compliant. Go here http://www.ar15.com/forums/board.html?b=4 and look at the stickies to find out more info. It's under 'AK ABC's'/'Parts List' or something like that. I would suggest a Romanian side folder because it will go straight on with no mods to the receiver. After swapping the required parts of course.
 
Do you need a weapon that can be very small stored, or very small and SHOT in that condition?

With standard shooting stance, an M4 carbine is not really any longer than a guy with a pistol in a two handed combat stance. Seriously.

With a 16.5" barrel and a collapsing stock on the closed position, it may even be shorter.




For stored-small: Sub 2000 or Su-16 from Keltec.
Or, a folding stock AK or collapsed stock AR15.
M1A1 carbine (folding stock).

Shootable small: The Sub-2000 or M1 carbine, maybe the Bushmaster M17S bullpup, but it has very crappy sights and bad ergonomics.
 
MrMurphy is dead on. Unless you need to shoot this rifle while it is short there are plenty of options including folding/collapsing stocks or disassembly.

The closer you can come to a regular sized rifle the less of a compromise you will be making. :)

And while I cast my vote for the 16" CAR-15 an AK with a nice side folding stock should get the job done.
 
I went with the Bushmaster M17S. It's not light but it sits by the bed. It's not haulled through the woods. I have short and narrow hallways in my house and I liked the control a long-gun offered and I use HP ammo to maximize stopping power while minimizing the danger of rounds that miss.

It ended up being so accurate I threw a scope on it to see what it's capable of, and the trigger is long but not bad. On par with stock Glocks and better than my SKS by a heathy margin.

Stock configuration is 30" long with a 21.5" barrel. A gunsmith can shorten them to closer to 26" for relatively cheap. Just cut down the barrel and sleave and re-thread. They can be found used for around $500 around here.
 
Slapping a folding stock on would NOT be Federally compliant.
Click to expand...

christophera, Century uses Romanian stocks on their SAR-1's. Therefore, replacing one of those (Romanian) stocks with a (Romanian) side-folder or (Polish) under-folder would leave the foreign parts count, and therefore the U.S. parts count, the same as when he started. As long as you don't replace the FCG or gas piston with a foreign part, there shouldn't be any problem, as those are the U.S. made parts Century most commonly uses (they've also been known to use U.S. mag followers).
 
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