Looking for a short defensive carbine

[JShirley]

If indoors, I think the larger calibers are too loud and too much. A 9mm makes much more sense, or a .40 caliber.

If you feel they aren't enough, go with a shotgun.

If outdoors, but short range, I think a 44 mag semi-auto is hard to beat.

Actually, a well-designed rifle bullet will penetrate less than most pistol rounds (higher velocity equals more expansion and/or fragmentation, with the right bullets). A good .223 or 7.62x39mm should be about perfect at close range, with proper ammo selection, and, as you can see from the following pic, a .223 can be both very fast and accurate, especially at close range. (Most of the shots were fired from someone who has just installed an Aimpoint. I fired the circled controlled pair in demonstration, since I've used the M68 CCO in the Army. Both shots were fired at about 5 meters in 1 second.)

 

[Colden]

What do you think is more efficient in terms of saving money:

1. Buy an under-folding stock + parts, have a smith install it on my existing 2003 SAR-1 (currently in as-sold condition), or

2. Buy a Vector Arms AK-47 clone already with an under-folding stock and blonde wood handguards for about $500, then sell my SAR-1?

Are Vector receivers good? They claim to use Hungarian/Polish parts, but I have no idea what the quality of the receiver is compared to my SAR-1. It would also be nice to know if these are no-ban models with a bayo-lug + barrel threads, but the pictures aren't detailed enough for me to see that.

 

[Daniel L]

Another question: Which scopes mount on an AK? Will an Aimpoint or EOTech mount without problems on one? What is necessary for the mounting?

 

[cslinger]

You have two main mounting options on an AK. You can order a side rail weaver style mount or buy an ultimax forward gas tube weaver mount.

There are dust cover replacements that have a weaver rail ala the FAL but these don't cut it. Don't waste your money.

All in all I find the side mount on the AK series pretty flexible and well thought out as quick release mounts go.

Chris

 

[Colden]

Where do I get this stock?!

It looks amazing! Can this be put onto any M1 carbine?

I wonder what the length is with this thing closed! It looks like it can be opened while the magazine is inserted! And an under-folder, too...

 

[Colden]

Bump.

 

[AK103K]

I'd go with your SAR and just add the side folder to it. You can do it yourself easy enough and its a better stock for shooting than the under folder. Most under folders were always to wobbly for me. The Romanian side folder is rock solid in both open and closed position and is not in the way of the safety or bolt when closed. You can also shoot it well enough folded if you use a properly adjusted sling as the stock when looped around your neck. You just thrust the gun forward until its tight and you will be amazed at how well you can shoot it with just a little practice. I highly recommend adding a red dot on the Ultimak mount, once you try it, you'll never want to use any other on your AK, especially for up close, fast shooting.

 

[RKCheung]

How about the SU-16C?

The “Charlie†model retains some features of the original SU-16, such as integrated bipod, Picatinny rail, and M-16 magazine compatibility. It has the sights of the “Bravo†but with the front sight post mounted into the gas block.

The SU-16C has a true folding stock and can be fired in the folded condition. It also has an integrated dust cover and a case deflecting operating handle. The barrel is 16†long and of medium weight. The muzzle is threaded 1/2x28 to accept standard attachments. The “Charlie†is only available in parkerized finish with black polymer components.

The SU-16C is not a replacement for the original SU-16 but a compliment for customers that put a premium on ruggedness and adaptability.

Technical Specifications

Caliber: 5.56mm
Weight unloaded: 4.7 lbs
Length: 35.5 inches
Length folded: 25.5 inches
Barrel length: 16 inches
Sight radius: 15.5 inches
Magazine capacity: 10 rounds, or M-16 compatible

Maybe the OAL folded is a typo and they meant 26.5 inches?

 

[lycanthrope]

M4 style AR or an Olympic OA93PT 16" with REMOVEABLE Buttstock. I have one and it's a neat rifle.

 

[Blueduck]

Not a fan of them myself, but if your really dead set on staying with requirments of a 16" barrell and 26" overall length (shooting length, not storage), it's gotta be bullpup, no choice.

16" bbl plus at least 4" of reciever leaves you with a six inch stock which is just too short to be of any use.

Best of luck

 

[Colden]

The SU-16C almost looks comfortable to use folded. Why doesn't it have a normal pistol grip?

Still interested to know who makes that underfolder for M1 carbine in the picture I posted earlier.

Bull-pups probably wouldn't work because I can't imagine shooting one not off-shoulder. Am I wrong? Wouldn't it be very easy to disrupt ejection with your sleeve/arm in a low hold?

 

[Sunray]

"...Looking for a short defensive carbine..." The M-1 carbine is the only one to even consider. No useless folding stocks that negate control, required. It's simple, light weight and accurate. And has the advantage of light felt recoil so your other half or kid can use it too. No other rifle is as handy or as fast to get into operation from empty to ready. No AR or AK nor anything else comes close.
No surplus ball ammo though. Handloaded 110 grain HP's only. Think IMR4227. The load that my rifle likes makes a hole the size of a grapefruit in a ground hog and it's suitable for deer sized game.

 

[rick_reno]

Vector Arms is selling a number of AK's with folding stocks (under and side). I had a good opportunity to look one over closely at a recent gun show - my neaighbor was trying to buy a rifle at the next table - and they're very nicely made.

 

[RKCheung]

Colden,

The original SU-16 was designed as a straight-stock, so I assume that it is simply easier to keep the straight-stock design and add an under-folder for the C version in order to keep it backwards compatible.

 

[Domino]

I dunno, the SU-16C seems kind of redundant. Whats the point of a folding stock when you can only use 10 round mags when its folded? I'd sooner have the original configuration and be able to collapse it for portability. If they want a real folder than they need a new design that is just based on their original rifle. Just make an SU-16 type rifle with a pistol grip and folding stock and sell it for ~$400 and it would FLY off the shelves!

 

[Colden]

I believe there is a hole in the folding stock to allow for a longer magazine.

Having no pistol grip sucks, though.

 

[MrMurphy]

There is a hole in the 16C stock, you can stick a 30 in.


That M1 carbine stock is the type known as the "Pantograph" stock, adopted according to US Army Ordinance at the end of WW2 but I've never actually seen one on an M1 carbine. Similar to the AK folding stock. There are probably modern-made versions available..... try Choate or Ram-Line.

 

[PAC 762]

Why not an AK or AR pistol?

Something like this maybe? You'll lose some velocity, but it'll be short enough.

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=208512&highlight=pistol

 

[Gewehr98]

Oh, yeah!

Why not an AK or AR pistol?

Something like this maybe? You'll lose some velocity, but it'll be short enough.

Defensive gun, ala' Scarface, that is...

Colden, are you still seriously considering defending yourself and family by holding a shorty carbine one-handed?

 

[Colden]

No, where did I imply that? Unless you consider letting go of the forearm to open doors "one-handed" defense. I suppose I could kick all doors in and turn on lights with my nose.

This AK pistol looks really interesting. How come this hasn't been done before? (Has it?) Are there legal issues?

 

[MrMurphy]

With a three-point or single-point sling, opening doors and turning on light switches is easily accomplished with an AK or an AR (16.5" barrel, especially a collapsing stock).

I've done it myself, numerous times, and the guys in Iraq aren't clearing houses with pistols, they're using M16s and M4s.


Hitting anything with a one-handed folding stock rifle slung is very hard though..

Take your normal carbine, remove it from the shoulder, butt under armpit, open door or flip switch, bring rifle back up to shoulder and move on. I've even done it with a 12 gauge and a Lee-Enfield (out of curiousity) which has a 25" barrel and is FAR longer than any of the rifles discussed.

Spend $15, get The Tactical Rifle from Gabe Suarez off amazon.com before you make up your mind. Sounds like you have some training issues.

 

[carpettbaggerr]

The SU-16C almost looks comfortable to use folded. Why doesn't it have a normal pistol grip?

Pronably so they can sell it in CA and other banana republics [MD, MA, NY, etc.]. :banghead:

 

[RKCheung]

Pronably so they can sell it in CA and other banana republics [MD, MA, NY, etc.].

If only that were the case, I'd be ordering one right now.

Unfortunately, the C version is prohibited from sale in CA because of the folding stock (our state AWB has no sunset clause).

 

[PAC 762]

"This AK pistol looks really interesting. How come this hasn't been done before? (Has it?) Are there legal issues?"

It was done 10 years ago, then this nasty little law came into effect. Now the law is gone, and they are as legal as a 1911.

FWIW, I wouldn't use one for defense, but you can be pretty accurate with one by putting a shoulder strap rear of the pistol grip and use outward pressure on the sling to stabilize the weapon.

 

[Litlman]

I don't know if it meets your needs but, Bushmaster makes a shorty with a "Stuby" stock. Check their web site. Good luck...